SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

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justbyfaith

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Since to abide means to live, to abide for ever means to live for ever; and therefore, to live for ever means to abide for ever. Fruit bearing is always the result therefore of real salvation. Salvation is not the bearing of fruit; but fruit bearing will come as the result of salvation. Salvation is to abide, or live, for ever. So fruit bearing will always be the result of salvation; so if there is no good fruit, we as fruit inspectors can determine that salvation isn't genuine. Matthew 7:15-20.
 
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justbyfaith

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You show a knack for misunderstanding a lot. I've never agreed to what you claim I've agreed with. Do you really read my posts?


Which does NOT support your erroneous claim that "believing produces righteous behavior".


Sure. Lower yourself by ad hominems.

Your leaps of logic in so many verses is really noticeable.

However, those who carefully read Scripture know that righteous behavior isn't automatic or guaranteed.

Eph 2:10 refutes you. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Please notice the words "created...TO DO GOOD WORKS".

This tells us the purpose of being created in Christ. For service, which included good works.

What the verse doesn't say is that we were created and WILL do good works.

But the OSNAS crowd doesn't read carefully.
I thought you might see my reasoning as a leap of logic; so I made sure that I connected the dots in my logic in post #2737; which, I've noticed, you decided not to answer. And I certainly wasn't saying that you have no brains at all (thus lowering myself by the use of an ad hominem); I was actually being optimistic towards you that you might see my point because you do have brains.
 
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justbyfaith

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In post #2731:

I wrote:
Therefore either those who believe and work iniquity will be cast away; or those who believe are transformed in their hearts so that they are not workers of iniquity. And therefore workers of iniquity are by definition those who don't believe, because real faith transforms the heart (2 Corinthians 5:17). Even if they think they believe and put all their hope in John 10:28, they will find on the day of judgment that their faith wasn't real enough to grant them entrance into heaven.
To which you responded:
Thanks for just agreeing with me about the crowd in Matt 7.

Which indicates that you believed that I was agreeing with you by my statements in the above quote; therefore you were agreeing with my statements in the above quote.

The crowd in Matthew 7 were workers of iniquity: now if they were believers then believers will be told by Jesus, I never knew you: depart from me. If they were not believers then workers of iniquity are not believers. Of course, you might try to get around it by saying that there will be believers who are workers of iniquity to whom Jesus will NOT say, "I never knew you, depart from me": believers who worked iniquity who made it in on their faith although they were workers of iniquity. Unfortunately Jesus said "I never knew: you depart from me" to these people FOR THE VERY REASON that they were workers of iniquity: He gives the reason why they must depart from Him as being that they are workers of iniquity. In this scripture, and also in Matthew 13:41-42, this is irregardless of faith, faith is not mentioned (just as conditions for never perishing are not mentioned in John 10:28). So they are cast away because they are workers of iniquity irregardless of faith.

Now we know from other scripture that we are saved by grace through faith: so in combining the concepts of scripture we must conclude that because, if someone works iniquity they will not enter in, and because, a man is saved by grace through faith, that therefore, if a man is saved by grace through faith and will enter in because of faith, and cannot not enter in; that THEREFORE the faith by which he cannot not enter in must be a faith by which he has ceased to be a worker of iniquity.

And if he is not a worker of iniquity, he must needs be a doer of righteousness by default, because there is no middle ground between being a worker of iniquity and being a doer of righteousness (Romans 6:18, Romans 6:20); when a man stops doing iniquity it creates a vacuum which will be filled only by doing iniquity again or else by doing righteousness. Therefore if one does not fill the vacuum with righteousness, it will be filled by iniquity again, and therefore there can be no middle ground between iniquity and righteousness.

For the sake of convenience I will quote here Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Here, again, people are cast away, they will be cast into the furnace of fire, because of WORKING INIQUITY; and faith or lack thereof is not mentioned. Though we know that a man is saved by grace through faith; so we must conclude that the man who is saved by grace through faith IS NOT A WORKER OF INIQUITY. Also consider that the context of Ephesians 2:8-9, in Ephesians 2:1-5, teaches us that the specific iniquity of fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, for the one who is saved by grace through faith, is a thing of the past. Also a thing of the past in this passage is walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Back on track and STOP the one-on-one yak-yak!

SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE!!

God does not take back nor allow man to give back His SALVATION...PAST completed TENSE! (AORIST!)

John 5:24 (all NASB) “Truly, truly, I (Jesus) say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life,
and does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED out of death into life.

Ephesians 2:4-10
(by grace you HAVE BEEN saved),

Luke 19:1-10...[ Zaccheus Converted ]
9 And Jesus said to him,
“Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of Man "has come" to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them,
“It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick;
I did not "come to call" the righteous, but sinners.”

John 3
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might "be saved" through Him.
18 He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he "has not believed" in the name of the ONLY begotten Son of God.

John 6
35 Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life;
he who COMES to Me WILL not hunger,
and he who BELIEVES in Me WILL never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have SEEN Me, and yet do not BELIEVE.
40 For this is the will of My Father,
that everyone who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him "WILL (is certain to) have "eternal life"", (now!!)
and I Myself will raise him up "on the last day".”

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I "GIVE eternal (spiritual) life to them", and they will never perish;
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who HAS GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.” (IN SPIRITUAL ESSENCE AND NATURE!)

John 17:2-3 ...Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father about Jesus' followers
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh,
that to all whom You "have given" Him,
He MAY GIVE "eternal life".
This is "eternal life",
that they MAY KNOW You, the only true God, and
(KNOW) Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who "RECEIVED" him,
to those who "BELIEVED" in His name, (Jesus the Christ)He gave the right to become CHILDREN of God...

QUESTIONS:
1. Can one lose or give back the completed saving work of Jesus the Divine Messiah? If so, copy and paste supporting verses in context.
2. What must one DO to be saved? UNsaved?
3. Does one need to spiritually discern anything further than John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2 to be saved? Romans 10? Acts 16:31?
4. Is Salvation an EVENT?
5. Is Sanctification a PROCESS?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Since to abide means to live, to abide for ever means to live for ever; and therefore, to live for ever means to abide for ever. Fruit bearing is always the result therefore of real salvation. Salvation is not the bearing of fruit; but fruit bearing will come as the result of salvation. Salvation is to abide, or live, for ever. So fruit bearing will always be the result of salvation; so if there is no good fruit, we as fruit inspectors can determine that salvation isn't genuine. Matthew 7:15-20.
Your logic is seriously flawed and the Bible does not bear out your claims.

Fruit bearing is commanded. That alone refutes your opinion.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I thought you might see my reasoning as a leap of logic; so I made sure that I connected the dots in my logic in post #2737; which, I've noticed, you decided not to answer. And I certainly wasn't saying that you have no brains at all (thus lowering myself by the use of an ad hominem); I was actually being optimistic towards you that you might see my point because you do have brains.
I've seen all your points and have explained WHY I disagree with all of them. As well as the Bible disagreeing with them. All of them.
 
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FreeGrace2

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post #2737
Jesus said, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:23.

We must conclude that if someone can fall away and still be saved, that if they fall away they will not return to being a worker of iniquity.
Please re-word this unworkable sentence so I can understand what you are saying.

But is not falling away by definition a return to the old way of life, before you were saved, when you were a worker of iniquity?
It can just mean to cease believing, as Jesus noted in Luke 8:13.

Because faith in Christ will produce righteousness, we have established that.
No, you only claimed that. You've proved nothing of the sort.

In fact, Eph 2:10 tells us what we have been created in Christ FOR: to do good works.

It does NOT say we WILL. That's WHY the commands for holiness.

Also, we have already established that the workers of iniquity that Jesus here speaks of are not believers. So if one is a believer, I ask, can they be included in this group of workers of iniquity?
No. Believers have believed and have been given eternal life. And Jesus says such people shall never perish. The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 WILL perish. So we can't include believers into the crowd in that passage.

If they can, then a person can believe and yet be cast away, wherein Jesus will say to them, I never knew you, depart from me.
But I just explained WHY they can't, but it seems you STILL don't believe what Jesus said or understand what Jesus said in John 10:28. Which remains your problem.

If they can't, then those who believe are never workers of iniquity and by default they can only be doers of righteousness.
Very faulty logic here.

Why the commands for holiness if they 'can only be doers of righteousness' then?

You have NOT answered this question, which creates a huge hole in your theology.

That's where the cold draft is coming from.
 
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Micah888

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Judas was called by Jesus; how was his calling irrevocable?
While it is true that Judas was allowed to be an apostle, his *calling* was in order to fulfil all the prophecies pertaining to Christ's betrayal and crucifixion.

So Judas -- called a devil and the Son of Perdition by Jesus -- was to be a temporary apostle. How could his *calling* be irrevocable? And there is actually no biblical record of his being "called" as such. How he joined the disciples in not presented to us.

Back to the topic, salvation -- eternal life -- is indeed irrevocable for the simple reason that it is God's gift to the one who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)
 
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justbyfaith

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post #2737

Please re-word this unworkable sentence so I can understand what you are saying.


It can just mean to cease believing, as Jesus noted in Luke 8:13.


No, you only claimed that. You've proved nothing of the sort.

In fact, Eph 2:10 tells us what we have been created in Christ FOR: to do good works.

It does NOT say we WILL. That's WHY the commands for holiness.


No. Believers have believed and have been given eternal life. And Jesus says such people shall never perish. The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 WILL perish. So we can't include believers into the crowd in that passage.


But I just explained WHY they can't, but it seems you STILL don't believe what Jesus said or understand what Jesus said in John 10:28. Which remains your problem.


Very faulty logic here.

Why the commands for holiness if they 'can only be doers of righteousness' then?

You have NOT answered this question, which creates a huge hole in your theology.

That's where the cold draft is coming from.
I HAVE answered your question twice in this thread. Here, I'll do it again: commandments are given as a schoolmaster to bring men to Christ. When we come to faith, we are no longer under a schoolmaster, though we retain all the lessons that the schoolmaster taught us. But the reality of this is hidden from you.
 
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justbyfaith

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I wrote:
Because faith in Christ will produce righteousness, we have established that.

To which you responded:
No, you only claimed that. You've proved nothing of the sort.

I have proved it time and time again.

But the following scriptures apply:

Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people has waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us: he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:5-6.
 
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justbyfaith

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We receive the love of God through faith in Jesus Christ as He fills us with the Holy Ghost. Romans 5:1-5. If we don't have the love of God it is because we don't have faith in Jesus Christ. Real love is never in word or in tongue only, but always in deed and in truth. 1 John 3:18. What about this don't you understand? You seem to think that a person can be saved without also falling in love with Jesus. But we love Him because He first loved us. 1 John 4:19. So if anyone is truly born again (saved), if anyone REALLY KNOWS that their sins are forgiven through Christ's suffering and death on the Cross; if they take ANY TIME AT ALL to contemplate the love that Christ had for them in going to the Cross, they cannot help but fall in love with the One who went to such a great extent to redeem them from hell. Also if anyone UNDERSTANDS that they were once headed for hell and are now going to heaven for that Christ suffered and died, how will they not be thankful, and also respond to the love of Christ with a devotion that is complete and irrevocable? Because in dying for us Christ commended into the hands of the Father His Spirit, and the Father also poured out His Spirit on the early church on the day of Pentecost so that ever after those who believe on Christ would be recipients of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost; who sheds abroad His love in our hearts also when He comes to dwell within us. The indwelling of the Holy Ghost is the indwelling of the love of God; and the love of God is never inactive but is a factor that will induce us to labour.
 
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justbyfaith

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love = righteousness and holiness. Romans 13:8-10. The fulfilling of the law.

We receive the love of God through the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, Romans 5:5.

If we walk not according to the flesh but according to the Holy Ghost, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us. Romans 8:4.

I suppose that your point is that a carnal believer can walk according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit.

My only point that I would make is that if someone is behaving carnally, I don't believe that God or the holy scriptures would ever give them assurance that they are absolutely going to heaven. Carnal behaviour is something by which the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. Ephesians 5:5-6, Colossians 3:5-6. And while someone behaving carnally may be a believer, they also might not be; and the only way of really knowing that you are a believer would be if you surrender to God those areas of your life that make you carnal, and to become spiritual in those areas; because there is definite assurance given by the Holy Spirit to the spiritual believer, who is not walking carnally but who has surrendered those areas of carnal behaviour to the Lord. The scripture certainly does not teach that behaving carnally ensures salvation to the one who behaves in such a manner. The only way to have real assurance therefore would be to surrender those carnal behaviours and begin to walk holy in those areas of your life. Otherwise His Spirit will not bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God, but any assurances you may have would only be the result of your lying to yourself; telling yourself that you are saved when really you are not. Because God the Holy Spirit will give assurance to the ones who are pleasing to Him but if they are behaving in ways that grieve His heart His discipline for the believer will be to remove assurance in their spirit so that they will have to grasp for the letter (which kills, but the spirit gives life) of certain verses to tell them that they are eternally secure when the tenor of those verses is that they only apply to Jesus' sheep who are known by Jesus. And those who are workers of iniquity, Jesus never knew; and therefore in grasping for the letter of such verses as John 10:28 they are grasping at straws.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I HAVE answered your question twice in this thread. Here, I'll do it again: commandments are given as a schoolmaster to bring men to Christ. When we come to faith, we are no longer under a schoolmaster, though we retain all the lessons that the schoolmaster taught us. But the reality of this is hidden from you.
The reality is that you know nothing about me.

And I am fully aware of what the Law was given for, from Galatians 3.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I wrote:


To which you responded:

I have proved it time and time again.

But the following scriptures apply:

Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people has waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us: he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:5-6.
Why do you think any of these verses teach that faith in Christ produces righteousness?

Eph 2:10 tells us FOR WHAT we were created in Christ: to do good works.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I suppose that your point is that a carnal believer can walk according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit.
This is exactly Paul's point from Romans 6 and 7, and Gal 5.

My only point that I would make is that if someone is behaving carnally, I don't believe that God or the holy scriptures would ever give them assurance that they are absolutely going to heaven.
Well, Jesus did. In John 10:28. And Paul did in Rom6:23 with 11:29. And Peter did in 1 Pet 1:23.

Carnal behaviour is something by which the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.
I agree with this! In fact, God's wrath is painful discipline, per Heb 12:11.
 
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justbyfaith

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The reality is that you know nothing about me.

And I am fully aware of what the Law was given for, from Galatians 3.
But you seem to think it was given to BELIEVERS so that we might obey it. In all reality it is given to UNBELIEVERS to lead them to Christ and to train them up so that when they come to Christ they will know what it means to obey Christ. What I am saying is that you seem to be willfully ignorant of the fact, that the fact that there are commandments in no way means that the Holy Spirit within a man will not motivate him to keep them; and that any time the Holy Ghost indwells anyone, He motivates them to be obedient! The existence of commandments in no way contradicts the truth that if any man is in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new!

This means a transformed heart that is inclined toward obedience, holiness, righteousness, and purity: therefore a living and saving faith will result in a transformed life, even in the practical.

Would you argue that 1 John 3:5-9 does not teach that there is a radical transformation of life in the born again believer (him who is born of God?)

Oh, I have a new nature, and my new nature doesn't sin; but I can sin all I want because my new nature doesn't take part in it and therefore I can lie, murder, cheat, and steal, but I'm not really sinning (and therefore will not be held accountable) because it is my flesh!

In teaching this you give your hearers license for sinning and you turn the grace of God into lasciviousness.
 
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justbyfaith

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This is exactly Paul's point from Romans 6 and 7, and Gal 5.


Well, Jesus did. In John 10:28. And Paul did in Rom6:23 with 11:29. And Peter did in 1 Pet 1:23.


I agree with this! In fact, God's wrath is painful discipline, per Heb 12:11.
So you believe that the wrath of God isn't eternal torments in hell. Are you a Universalist? Do you believe that hell is the wrath of God or do you understand that His chastening is done out of love not wrath? Do you understand what the author of Hebrews is really teaching in Hebrews 12:5-11?
 
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justbyfaith

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But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:22-23.

Everlasting life here, is given as the result of being made free from sin, and having fruit unto holiness.

The beginning of the gift has to do with being set free from sin. That the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord in no way nullifies the fact that the wages of sin is death.
 
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justbyfaith

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Why do you think any of these verses teach that faith in Christ produces righteousness?

Eph 2:10 tells us FOR WHAT we were created in Christ: to do good works.

The fact that you did not understand WHAT I was teaching by those verses indicates to me that you are the subject matter of those very verses.
 
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justbyfaith

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I wrote:
My only point that I would make is that if someone is behaving carnally, I don't believe that God or the holy scriptures would ever give them assurance that they are absolutely going to heaven.

To which @FreeGrace2 responded:
Well, Jesus did. In John 10:28.

Again, you forgot that John 10:28 is a promise given to Jesus' sheep, whom Jesus knows. And Jesus never knew those who are identified as workers of iniquity.
 
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