Paul preached easy believism

GodsGrace101

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Repentance is the necessary result of salvation.
??
When one answers an altar call, does he go up to the altar saved and then he feels repentance,,,
or does he feel repentance and then go to the altar and is saved??

Acts 3:19
Acts 20:21

First comes repentance, then comes forgiveness.
 
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Colter

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After the Son of God returned to heaven the original Gospel he preached in Israel changed. The simple idea of the Fatherhood of God and brotherhood of all mankind was replaced by the older beliefs in attempting to win favor with God through primitive blood sacrifices; the blood of the Son himself.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I agree with the general direction of argument but think you don't take it far enough - the entirety of the Law of Moses was done away with at the cross.

This, of course, does not mean its OK to murder - we have the Spirit to guide us, versus the letter of the law. Paul is pretty clear about this in Romans 7.

I believe all efforts to split the Law up into "moral" and "ceremonial" components are not Biblically defensible.
If the moral law was done away with, WHY can I not kill someone?

I don't have to follow the ceremonial law because it was done away with.
I don't have to follow the civil laws because they were done away with.
If the moral law was done away with, I also do not have to follow that.

And what did Jesus mean when He said:
17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.
NASB

Did He not mean this?
 
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RDKirk

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We should not reverse what is revealed in Scripture.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38).

It is the gift of the Holy Ghost (which is also the baptism WITH the Holy Ghost) that brings salvation and regeneration (Tit 3:4-7). And repentance COMES FIRST as Peter made it crystal clear. No repentance, no salvation. No saving faith, no salvation.

Does a person decide to repent by his own desire?
 
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RDKirk

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When one answers an altar call, does he go up to the altar saved and then he feels repentance,,,
or does he feel repentance and then go to the altar and is saved??

Acts 3:19
Acts 20:21

First comes repentance, then comes forgiveness.

"Forgiven them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Does anyone decide by his own desire to repent, or has God not done something first?
 
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GodsGrace101

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"Forgiven them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Does anyone decide by his own desire to repent, or has God not done something first?
Are you aware that universalists use your verse?
I don't know if you're one...I don't think so.

I believe in free will. Yes, I believe that by my own desire I come to feel sorry for my sins and repent.

Has God done something first?
He has revealed Himself to man.
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
NASB

It is up to me to respond to that revelation. As Romans says, we are without excuse for God has made Himself be known to us. Jesus is the ultimate revelation.
 
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RDKirk

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Are you aware that universalists use your verse?
I don't know if you're one...I don't think so.

I believe in free will. Yes, I believe that by my own desire I come to feel sorry for my sins and repent.

Has God done something first?
He has revealed Himself to man.
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
NASB

It is up to me to respond to that revelation. As Romans says, we are without excuse for God has made Himself be known to us. Jesus is the ultimate revelation.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, -- Jesus. John 6
 
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GodsGrace101

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After the Son of God returned to heaven the original Gospel he preached in Israel changed. The simple idea of the Fatherhood of God and brotherhood of all mankind was replaced by the older beliefs in attempting to win favor with God through primitive blood sacrifices; the blood of the Son himself.
What do you think of Genesis 3:15?
Also, what do you think of the animal skins God made for Adam and Eve? Those who wrote about Adam and Eve believed these were the first sacrifices. Was 3:15 a look into the future? Was that future Jesus?
 
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GodsGrace101

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No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, -- Jesus. John 6
John 6:44?
See also John 6:39 and John 6:40
The will of the Father is that all who behold the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life.

John 6:44 The Father draws all men to Himself. If God did not reveal Himself to us, how would we know about Him?
Those who are drawn to Jesus and believe in Him will be raised on the last day because Jesus has the life in Him.

I did post Romans 1:19-20 if I remember.
It's Gods will that ALL men be saved. John 6:44 does NOT mean that God only draws certain men to Jesus...

1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
 
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Danthemailman

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And what did Jesus mean when He said:
17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.
NASB

Did He not mean this?
Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said.

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).
 
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GodsGrace101

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Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said.

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).
Where did the RYR refer to the first commandment?
Jesus only referred to the last 6.

I agree that his wealth became his god and he could not give it up. We all have something in our lives that is difficult to live without. Or, at least, we think so.

He went away sad because he was hoping to have both his wealth and eternal life. Sometimes we have to choose.
Luke 14:28...

Keeping the commandments does come up many times in the N.T. Either in the positive or in the negative...
Mathew 5:19
Mathew 7:23
Mathew 28:20
John 14:15 Jesus
John 14:21 Jesus
1 Corinthians 7:19

and many more and also more in the O.T.

I don't know anyone that believes they are saved by doing the works of the law. Salvation comes by grace through faith as you've stated. However, after salvation there is also
Ephesians 2:10 we are asked to do the good works or deeds which God requests of us.

As to Acts 16:31, the jailer asked how he could be saved and Paul replied to believe in the Lord Jesus. This is what allows all of us to be saved. Belief in the Lord. If we believe in the Lord we are His disciples, if we are His disciples we do as He commands.

Do you think we should not obey the commandments?
 
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Colter

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What do you think of Genesis 3:15?
Also, what do you think of the animal skins God made for Adam and Eve? Those who wrote about Adam and Eve believed these were the first sacrifices. Was 3:15 a look into the future? Was that future Jesus?
The Bible books were written by Holy men, it reflects the practices and beliefs of the age in which they were written.

The church claims God wrote the scripture in order to derive their authority.
 
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Bobber

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Yes, that would serve as a reminder that we are continually and on a daily basis contending with the old man and in this regard are dying daily, because we are wilfully denying it from taking hold of us and robbing us from what we were destined for in the afterlife.

Yes but my point is the way to play out the dying of self is starting from DEATH...not seeking to get to it. By death I'm not referring anything about our biological physical body which will die...but...The Old Man. Water baptism is such an acknowledgement....The Sinner the Old Man or nature is to be considered dead, not dying but dead. Going down in the waters is a form of burial and you don't bury one still living. When they come up out of the water it's symbolic of the new creature, the new nature man that is no longer the children of wrath by nature.

Underline the conditional term might be rendered powerless. So our will is to deny the old man from taking hold of us again.

Well two way of responding to that. In your Christian experience if you've had occasion where the old man is powerless it's because you've rightly reckoned yourself in those times DEAD to sin and it's Christ's life within you that is your victory. And about "might" Depends on how you're categorizing the word. If I said I gave you a gun so that you might render powerless the bad guy who was seeking to kill you....doesn't mean you haven't used the weapon and that bad guy isn't dead.

If our will no longer wants to deny the old man, then he will re-enter our life and to take hold of us in a way that would push us to a fallen state.

I agree. The potential of us choosing the Old Man always exists. I liken it to the laws of aviation. Planes you the law of lift and thrust and as long as they do...gravity is powerless. It has absolutely no hold or power on the airplane as long as it keeps into motion laws which allow flight. Gravity is real even people in the middle of flight won't deny that. But in real terms it has no authority in what they're involved in that is unless the pilot lowers the thrust level and lift. Gravity IS DEAD to those who are in flight.

It is easier said than done, meaning that many wish to walk in freedom, but their loyalty and obligations to the world prevents them from discharging their obligations to God and his Christ. You can take the horse to water, but you cannot make him to drink.
True but here's how I'd consider it. They're not willing to identify each day with who and what they are In Christ Jesus. In so doing they stand on dangerous ground and may none of us entertain the notion of being there. Most unwise.
 
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Bobber

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I've heard this on these forums.
It truly makes no common sense.
How could one be saved if he does not repent of his sins?
Both: Repent in the sense of being sorry for his sins...
AND, repent in its correct meaning of turning away from satan and turning towards God.
This change is absolutely necessary.
Jesus said, "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mathew 4:17 NASB

First let me say God does not want any of his children living in sin. Sin is death, it's destruction and is really the degeneration of life. In this present time or era that is after the time that Jesus rose from the dead. What is the primary thing that Jesus is saying to the sinner....stop sinning? Yes but not in the way you might think. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot put out good fruit. Imagine the sinner...ALL SINNERS, each one as a tree. A sinner tree produces sin as it's fruit.

It can do nothing different. Imagine one going up to the tree, banging it and hitting it yelling and shouting to it...STOP PRODUCING THIS FRUIT! It can do nothing of the sort. Imagine this picture though....one who has the power of creation approaches the tree and says, "Look I can do a recreation on the inside of you (you must be born again) and what you are now is not what you'll be." In a sense the one with recreation ability is saying I know you can't help what you are BUT you can allow a recreation. You don't do the recreating...I DO!

If the corrupt tree agrees they are then recreated, now with the life of God within BUT the sins of their past even though they were a corrupt tree still need to be removed...and blotted out. When Jesus forgave sinners in his ministry it still didn't mean their sins didn't need blotted out. Forgiveness was a promissory note of still what was yet to come with Jesus victory on the Cross.

The blood of bulls, goats and lambs didn't remit sins...but merely covered them. Jesus blood blots them out. The sinner is one by nature and to change all that an operation Colossians 2:12 would have to be done...to take out the bad nature and put in the new, or to take out the stony heart and to impart a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36 This was not yet available when Christ ministered on earth BUT the stage was being set to usher it in. Didn't listeners of Jesus have to seek to do the best they could in obeying moral precepts? Yes but he was going to give mankind the ultimate higher capacity to do so by giving them a new heart.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:27

This had not yet occurred in the ministry of Jesus and didn't happen until Jesus arose from the dead. This therefore means that mankind did not truly have a capacity to walk in the statues of God, that is not in the truest sense even in his three year ministry, and it's not the trying to keep the law by human power or endeavor but by the Spirit of God which would soon be in each one.

So what about sinners those who have never been born again...to them is our message...STOP SINNING? No...it about receiving Jesus and all that that means. By rejecting Christ which is life which is the new nature of LOVE....that is really the sin which will lead men to Hell. It's like the bad tree refusing to be recreated.
 
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If the moral law was done away with, WHY can I not kill someone?
Do you need a law to tell you it’s immoral to murder?

Paul is clear: the Christian has the Spirit, and does not need the Law.
 
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RDKirk

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Do you need a law to tell you it’s immoral to murder?

Paul is clear: the Christian has the Spirit, and does not need the Law.

Actually there is a Law.

But let's be more precise.

When we say "Law," we actually mean "covenant."

God had a covenant with Israel, an agreement in which God made promises and Israel made promises, the covenant being consecrated by the blood of bulls.

God now has a covenant with us the Body of Christ, consecrated by the blood of Christ, an agreement in which God has made a superior promise and we have made a superior promise.

This is explained in detail in Hebrews 8.

There is an agreement, a covenant, a law current between God and us the Body of Christ that demands a higher level of performance upon both parties. With regard to the higher level of performance expected of us--higher than the performance expected of Israel--we can see some elements spelled out in the Sermon on the Mount. We are expected to perform better than Israel was expected to perform.
 
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GodsGrace101

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First let me say God does not want any of his children living in sin. Sin is death, it's destruction and is really the degeneration of life. In this present time or era that is after the time that Jesus rose from the dead. What is the primary thing that Jesus is saying to the sinner....stop sinning? Yes but not in the way you might think. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot put out good fruit. Imagine the sinner...ALL SINNERS, each one as a tree. A sinner tree produces sin as it's fruit.

It can do nothing different. Imagine one going up to the tree, banging it and hitting it yelling and shouting to it...STOP PRODUCING THIS FRUIT! It can do nothing of the sort. Imagine this picture though....one who has the power of creation approaches the tree and says, "Look I can do a recreation on the inside of you (you must be born again) and what you are now is not what you'll be." In a sense the one with recreation ability is saying I know you can't help what you are BUT you can allow a recreation. You don't do the recreating...I DO!

If the corrupt tree agrees they are then recreated, now with the life of God within BUT the sins of their past even though they were a corrupt tree still need to be removed...and blotted out. When Jesus forgave sinners in his ministry it still didn't mean their sins didn't need blotted out. Forgiveness was a promissory note of still what was yet to come with Jesus victory on the Cross.

The blood of bulls, goats and lambs didn't remit sins...but merely covered them. Jesus blood blots them out. The sinner is one by nature and to change all that an operation Colossians 2:12 would have to be done...to take out the bad nature and put in the new, or to take out the stony heart and to impart a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36 This was not yet available when Christ ministered on earth BUT the stage was being set to usher it in. Didn't listeners of Jesus have to seek to do the best they could in obeying moral precepts? Yes but he was going to give mankind the ultimate higher capacity to do so by giving them a new heart.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:27

This had not yet occurred in the ministry of Jesus and didn't happen until Jesus arose from the dead. This therefore means that mankind did not truly have a capacity to walk in the statues of God, that is not in the truest sense even in his three year ministry, and it's not the trying to keep the law by human power or endeavor but by the Spirit of God which would soon be in each one.

So what about sinners those who have never been born again...to them is our message...STOP SINNING? No...it about receiving Jesus and all that that means. By rejecting Christ which is life which is the new nature of LOVE....that is really the sin which will lead men to Hell. It's like the bad tree refusing to be recreated.
I don't know you well, but everything you've said sounds good.
I do believe I agree with it all.
Not completely sure what you mean about the Creator changing the tree. I believe that we can change the tree only with the Creator's help, which would be why Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit to be our paraclete.
John 16:7

I like to say that we are in Jesus and Jesus is in us, but I don't like to say that everything we do, HE does through us. This is because if that's true then when we sin it would be Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, failing and not us failing.

Other than this, I'd say you presented a good explanation of salvation through the grace of God.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Do you need a law to tell you it’s immoral to murder?

Paul is clear: the Christian has the Spirit, and does not need the Law.

First of all, you didn't answer my question.
Here it is again:
And what did Jesus mean when He said:
17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.
NASB

Did He not mean this?

I ask because you claim ALL the law was abolished and not just the ceremonial and civil law.

So, we don't have to follow the ceremonial law anymore. No more sacrificing animals to forgive our sins.

We don't have to follow the civil law any more - we don't have to be pre-married for one year before marriage. We don't give certificates of divorce.

So, according to you, if the moral law was also abolished WHY can't I murder someone? You say I should know it's wrong. Why? Who says it's wrong???
 
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Yes but my point is the way to play out the dying of self is starting from DEATH...not seeking to get to it.

If you historically observe how death plays out, let us say biological death, it is a process that takes time. People are biologically dying through a process called "dystrophy".

Dystrophy is a process of wasting away, until the final moments leading up to death.

Within the spiritual sense of the Old Man dying, we have a process of spiritual distrophy, that is wasting away of our members that connects us to the societal life support, hence we are slowly but surely dying to the world.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:3-4)

Colossians 3:3-4 dead and hid with Christ, is a process of spiritual distrophy, that is you only get there when Jesus appears and you are raised in your sinless nature (glory = Crown of Life). Colossians 3:3-4 is also supported by the second and third witness of scripture, in Hebrews 9:27-28 and 1 John 3:2.

Let us quote Colossians in full, to guage a better and much deeper understanding of how spiritual dying (distrophy), is a process that ends at biological death.

5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (Colossians 3:5-10)

A renewing of spiritual knowledge is a process called sanctification, that is symbolic of the maturing of grapes into good tasting fermented wine.

We have put on the new man at baptism, but the old man is still there. We are being instructed by Apostle Paul to Put Off the old man, which highly suggests that the old man is languishing, but is still ever present, until the body of sin is finally put to rest, then we appear before Christ in sinless glory (nature).

Therefore Apostle Paul is saying "To Mortify" members of the old man, that points to an infinite verb, which is an action in continual application that has the members of the old man being continually deprived of those adjectives mentioned, that is the "putting them off" of those adjectives.

Therefore, the new man and the old man exist side by side, unto death, do they apart. Do you understand friend?

By death I'm not referring anything about our biological physical body which will die...but...The Old Man.

I understand friend.

Water baptism is such an acknowledgement.

It acknowledges that the new man has made an entry alongside of the old man.

The Sinner the Old Man or nature is to be considered dead, not dying but dead.

Considering the old man dead, does NOT make him go away, he is still there unto biological death. Our unction is to mortify him, by depriving him from the fuel that feeds him, which is fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Going down in the waters is a form of burial and you don't bury one still living.

In this case we are burying the old man while he is still alive and unreluctantly kicking and screaming, to want to break out into the world. We are depriving him of oxygen that allows him a door back into our lives, to hamper the developmental progression of the new man.

It is a struggle, a tug of war between the two.

9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (Colossians 3:9)

When they come up out of the water it's symbolic of the new creature, the new nature man that is no longer the children of wrath by nature.

Sure, but the old man that invites the wrath of God back into an individual's life, is ever present and wants to break out, if given an opportunity to do so. We observe reality of a fallen servant, who according to Jesus falls in that category....as Jesus said......

48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites (unbelievers), where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:48-51)
 
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