Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

GodsGrace101 said:

Recipients of eternal life WILL PERISH if they do NOT follow Jesus' commands. Again:
John 14:15
Mathew 5:20
Luke 11:28
Luke 15:24

and all those other verses I've posted --- NOT ALWAYS THE SAME ONES. Something YOU cannot say as you keep repeating the same one over and over. This is because salvation CAN be lost and the N.T. admonishes us to be careful about our salvation.

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What makes you think you won’t parish if you die tonight?

GodsGrace101 said:

Please read the book of Romans again!


Romans 3:8
Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, "Let us do evil that good may result?" Their condemnation is deserved!


Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means!

And see,
1 Peter 2:16
16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

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This is not Paul threatening them to lose their salvation, YOU need to reread it. This is Paul exhorting them to godliness and purity. Paul is saying, essentially, "You have been made free from the Law, which brings nothing but condemnation to you, by Jesus Christ, and through grace you are given a free gift. Use that gift well, not as men that are still carnal, for you have been bought by the blood of Christ." Paul is saying that they need to act like Christians, not just stagnate in their faith.

GodsGrace101 said:

Please read the book of Romans again!


Romans 3:8
Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, "Let us do evil that good may result?" Their condemnation is deserved!


Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means!

And see,
1 Peter 2:16
16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

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You are playing mental gymnastics by saying this is somehow disproving once saved always saved. Not to mention, it would contradict clear scripture. But since we know the Bible doesn't contradict itself, we know that this is not in reference to a person losing their salvation which they have already received.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

Oh I understand scripture. You just don't believe the promises of God when it is point blank said that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:38-39), that those who believe on Jesus Christ have passed from death into life (John 5:24), and that God can't lie and promised everlasting (unending) life from before the world to all those who would believe on his Son (Titus 1:2). You are essentially calling God a liar, because he promised eternal life through his Son. Eternal means forever, everlasting means unending. God didn't attach any conditions to this. There is not a single verse in the Bible that says you can lose your salvation. Now, you CAN lose your life on earth - God can kill you as a punishment, but in regards to eternity, once you're saved, it's a done deal. It's irrevocable. I'm not advocating sinning as you please, because that's dangerous - you will be swiftly punished on earth by the Father in heaven - but God will never take away your ETERNAL life, because that would make God a liar.

It's like if you gave me a book and said I could have it forever, but 5 years down the road I made you mad and you came and took it from me - that makes you a liar. It's the same idea.

You just don't believe God and what he clearly says.

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Or YOU don't.

Mark 7:8-9
8“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition."

For 1,500 years after Jesus died, there was no such concept as OSAS. Then John Calvin popularized this idea about the year 1,500 AD. What would make you believe that all the other brilliant minds in all those years were wrong, and Calvin was right?

Do you believe Calvin, or do you believe the bible?

1 Corinthians 15:2
New International Version
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

You are playing mental gymnastics by saying this is somehow disproving once saved always saved. Not to mention, it would contradict clear scripture. But since we know the Bible doesn't contradict itself, we know that this is not in reference to a person losing their salvation which they have already received.

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No NM
I'm responding to the idea that you have that it's your body sinning and not you...
I was not referring here to OSAS ---

Nicolaus Mourer said:

This is not Paul threatening them to lose their salvation, YOU need to reread it. This is Paul exhorting them to godliness and purity. Paul is saying, essentially, "You have been made free from the Law, which brings nothing but condemnation to you, by Jesus Christ, and through grace you are given a free gift. Use that gift well, not as men that are still carnal, for you have been bought by the blood of Christ." Paul is saying that they need to act like Christians, not just stagnate in their faith.

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See post 685...
We were discussing sinning, NOT OSAS...

Freedom~Sprite said:

Again, that's because when someone denies the scriptures already posted by myself and others, evidencing a determination to assail or ignore the truth, it is a waste of time to repeat the same behavior, posting scripture, expecting a different result; accepting what Jesus actually taught and died to seal for all time.
Works salvation argument teachings insist that salvation in Christ is temporary, not eternal. Christ never said that.

The following bold italicized text is excerpted from this source. Hey look! Scriptures aplenty! And offered for those who may be here at this site seeking to find the truth of God in Christ's teachings.

"In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." The forgiveness of God through Christ is sufficient to cover all of our sins -- past, present, and future. There is nothing a person can do that God cannot forgive. This doctrine is supported by Romans 8:38-39, Ephesians 4:30, and Jude 24; among others."


If people could work to save themselves Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross. People would just have to labor and hope to have done enough while alive to save themselves. And then when they're about to die they'd worry perhaps they'd not done enough to enter Heaven. And would have to concede then that they'll find out, one way or the other as to their fate, when they're dead.
That's not scripture. There is no such scripture. But there is argument in that regard. And it's faithful are eternally wrong.

"Scriptural passages (Ephesians 2:8-9, Isaiah 64:6) indicate that our attempts at good deeds will never earn us a place in heaven. We cannot make up for our past, present, or future sins by doing good works. A saved believer will, as a natural product of their faith, shun sin and practice good works (James 2:18). If “once saved, always saved” is not true, then by necessity we are saved both by our faith and our works. If we can do sinful things, or not do good things (James 4:17) and lose our security, then our good deeds are a part of our salvation. This concept is contradictory to Scripture. It also creates an unlivable scenario where we have to try to do enough good to outweigh our sinful natures. The doctrine of “eternal security” goes hand in hand with the doctrine of “saved by faith alone.” To deny eternal security is to endorse a “faith plus works” salvation system. "

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I don't know anyone who thinks they could save themselves.
The question here is:
AFTER you've been saved, is it possible to lose salvation.
Now, I've already answered all those verses you've posted and will not do so again.

I will post this one verse for you:
Luke 8:13
JESUS said the person believed FOR A WHILE.
I don't know what more is needed. Jesus Himself said we could believe for a while.

MDC said:

What makes you think you won’t parish if you die tonight?

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I'M not the one saying that we don't have to follow God's commands...

I believe those who think this are in danger.

GodsGrace101 said:

Or YOU don't.

Mark 7:8-9
8“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition."

For 1,500 years after Jesus died, there was no such concept as OSAS. Then John Calvin popularized this idea about the year 1,500 AD. What would make you believe that all the other brilliant minds in all those years were wrong, and Calvin was right?

Do you believe Calvin, or do you believe the bible?

1 Corinthians 15:2
New International Version
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

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I'm the farthest thing from a Calvinist.

I just believe the Bible. Paul said sealed. Jesus said everlasting. God can't lie when he said none that were saved would perish.

You say OSAS wasn't around until 1500 years after Jesus.... so how come I read the Bible and it teaches OSAS?

I'm not going to continue in this though, because I have to go take a final for my class. Keep believing what you want to believe, it's not like I'm going to change your mind.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

I'm the farthest thing from a Calvinist.

I just believe the Bible. Paul said sealed. Jesus said everlasting. God can't lie when he said none that were saved would perish.

You say OSAS wasn't around until 1500 years after Jesus.... so how come I read the Bible and it teaches OSAS?

I'm not going to continue in this though, because I have to go take a final for my class. Keep believing what you want to believe, it's not like I'm going to change your mind.

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Good luck on your test.

BTW, I didn't say you were a Calvinist - I would hope not.
I'm just saying he came up with the idea of OSAS which is eternal security and used to be called perseverance of the saints.

This idea did not exist pre 1,500 AD. Just think about that.
Greater minds than ours read the N.T. !

GodsGrace101 said:

We must still follow the law, but God has made it possible for us to follow it. This is the difference between the Old Covenant (or Mosaic Covenant) and the New Covenant.

It's not that the moral law has been abolished, it's that we are now able to adhere to it with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.

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So basically you are saying that there is no difference between Old and New Covenants.
Under the Old if they didn't follow the law they were punished with death.
According to you.
Under the New Covenant if we don't follow the law, we are punished with eternal death.

GodsGrace101 said:

It is also interesting to note here that although circumcision was a sign by which the Hebrews WERE SEALED, this seal is no longer necessary...thereby proving that seals can be broken although some seem to believe that they cannot.

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As you noted, circumcision of the heart replaced circumcision of the flesh.
How does saying that circumcision of the flesh had been replaced relate to the fact the seal of the Holy Spirit can be broken?

GodsGrace101 said:

OK. since FG2 didn't answer about the grieving of the Holy Spirit, I'll tell you this...

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B4 you tell DM anything, I will expose your LIE here and now.

From post #591:

You said:
"Ephesians 4:30 Provide further proof, besides Ephesians 1:13-14 about how we are sealed. One verse does not a doctrine make. And, BTW, I DID give you a reply to being sealed."

To which I replied:
"First, let's look at this verse:
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Do you agree that grieving the Spirit is a very serious issue? I do. Not something I'd advise anyone to do.

Yet, as serious as that is, what did Paul add? "with whom you were sealed for the day redemption". Do you understand what that DAY is about? It's when our physical bodies are changed at the rapture. That's ultimate salvation, when we enter eternity.

So, even when we grieve the Spirit, we ARE STILL SEALED with the Spirit.

If grieving (or anything else that highly offends you that Christians might do) the Spirit WOULD lead to loss of salvation, WHY oh WHY would Paul have reminded sealed believers that they are still sealed for the day of redemption?

Instead, if salvation could be lost, Paul would have WARNED them right then and there about such a result.

He would have written something like this:
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, or you will be unsealed.

Or, And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, or you will lose salvation."

LIE exposed. I did answer your question and explain the verse.

But, where is your answer to my question?

If we grieve the Holy Spirit once, God will forgive us if we ask Him to. Everybody sins, as in 1 John 1 and 2.

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What do you mean "once"? Where does the Bible specify any # of times?

Seems you're only interested in your own opinion.

If we continually grieve the Holy Spirit, then I'd have to ask if the Holy Spirit and sin can live in the same body.

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Uh, where does the Holy Spirit go when you sin? Does He leave? Do you have any support for your presumptions from Scripture?

If we return to a life of sin, HOW can the Holy Spirit remain in us?

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Because we're sealed for the day of redemption.

Or, don't words mean anything to you?

Sin and the Holy Spirit cannot live in the same space which is why we're admonished throughout the N.T. to live godly lives.

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Well, the Bible does speak to this, since it seems you don't know.

When we're regenerated, or born again, it is the human spirit that is regenerated and is the place the Holy Spirit lives. Not in our flesh or soul. So we now have 2 natures, the sin nature, the one we're born with and the new creation. 2 Cor 5:17.

When we function from the original human (sin) nature, we sin. But when we function from our new nature, we cannot sin, because that's where the Holy Spirit functions.

1 John 3:9 explains this.

The consequences are harsh leading to loss of salvation.

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Well, the consequences are harsh, but the Bible never says anyone loses salvation.

Your presumption isn't found in Scripture.

Instead, the consequences are painful discipline. Heb 12:11

GodsGrace101 said:

Yes. You're good at putting persons on the defensive,unfortunately it won't work with me.

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A tough guy, huh?

Nicolaus Mourer said:

so how come I read the Bible and it teaches OSAS?

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Might as well give up for here. Some people say it is somewhere in the Bible,
but they always have to ignore much of the Bible, which by itself is enough to realize osas is not truth.

GodsGrace101 said:

I'm just saying he came up with the idea of OSAS which is eternal security and used to be called perseverance of the saints.

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This is not at all clear.
Yes, perhaps he came up with the idea of osas, as God did not provide it, but
'Perseverance of the saints' is truth as it is in Scripture,
but is 'visibly' the opposite of osas which doesn't require perseverance at all,
and which isn't truth to rely on, nor in harmony with all Scripture or God's Plan.

GodsGrace101 said:

Jesus Himself said we could believe for a while.

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Those referred to "fell away" after they believed for a while,
because, in part at least,

JESUS NEVER said HE would take away our ability to choose, our free will, while we are alive in this life.
Even as SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, we retain obviously our free will to choose to walk away from Jesus ,
AS MANY DISCIPLES DID in Scripture, and in the last 2000 years also.

GodsGrace101 said:

For 1,500 years after Jesus died, there was no such concept as OSAS.

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You really need to stop this nonsense. Jesus taught it directly in John 10:28, which neither you nor any of your buddies can refute the FACT that it is a statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

It proves that on the basis of having (being given) eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

Did it ever occur to you that "never" is a very long time?

Paul taught it as well. In Rom 6:23 he described eternal life as a gift of God, and in 11:29 wrote that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Peter also taught eternal security. In 1 Pet 1:23 he said this:
"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

To be born of imperishable seed means the born again person is imperishable. He was directly in line with what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Then John Calvin popularized this idea about the year 1,500 AD. What would make you believe that all the other brilliant minds in all those years were wrong, and Calvin was right?

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No, all those so-called "brilliant minds" were in direct opposition to what Jesus, Paul and Peter taught clearly. They weren't so "brilliant". More like heretical. And stupid.

Do you believe Calvin, or do you believe the bible?

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I'm no Calvinist and I believe the Bible.

Let me remind you and your buddies that none of you has yet to share any verse that plainly says salvation can be lost.

1 Corinthians 15:2

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New International Version
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

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The single Greek word for "hold firmly" really means "to possess". So, those who have believed the gospel that Paul preached do possess salvation. Period.

Further, the words "in vain" really mean "without reason". Do you understand what that speaks to? It speaks to the purpose of faith or believing.

All faith requires an object (that would be the Lord Jesus Christ) and a purpose (that would be salvation from hell). So, to "believe in vain" would be ANY belief that excludes either the proper object, Jesus, and the proper purpose for the faith.

iow, to believe in Jesus Christ FOR a promotion, improved health, etc, is NOT saving faith. Because Jesus didn't promise any of these things.

What He does promise is salvation from hell. That's what must be believed in order to be saving faith.

So your verse doesn't teach or even hint that salvation can be let go of.

GodsGrace101 said:

I will post this one verse for you:
Luke 8:13
JESUS said the person believed FOR A WHILE.
I don't know what more is needed. Jesus Himself said we could believe for a while.

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He also said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

Why do you continue to reject those words of His?

And what He didn't say in Luke 8:13 is that those who believe for a while are only saved for a while. You have to presume that.

GodsGrace101 said:

Good luck on your test.

BTW, I didn't say you were a Calvinist - I would hope not.
I'm just saying he came up with the idea of OSAS which is eternal security and used to be called perseverance of the saints.

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Well, since the Bible teaches eternal security, you'd be wrong.

This idea did not exist pre 1,500 AD.

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You've been shown the truth, and you continue to reject the truth.

Just think about that.

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Yeah, do that.

vanity of vanities, all is vanity