Praying to Saints

dzheremi said:

How do you figure? It's my prayer, from my church's tradition, so I know very well what it says and means. You for some reason appeared to think that I was replacing the Father with St. John Chrysostom (or something like that), so I was only clarifying that in fact the prayer is a prayer directly to God, as we both agree that only God can forgive sins.

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As I said, that is not what you said originally.

Episaw said:

As I said, that is not what you said originally.

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In point of fact, not that it is my debate, however I do believe it is what he said. That certainly was how I read it, and I don't believe his position has changed at all.

Kyrie Eleison

Episaw said:

I could have sworn that the Father was God himself not John and that only God can forgive sin.

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Let me break it down for you.
The Orthodox faith is a faith of humility. We don't consider our own prayers of much value, sinful people that we are, so we very much covet the prayers of those who we recognise as having become holy, "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." (James 5:16), and "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil." (1 Peter 3:12).
We also consider these spiritual giants as our fathers and mothers in much the same way the Apostle Paul claimed spiritual fatherhood over the Christians under his care and instruction.

Through the prayers of our holy father, St. John the Golden-mouthed, O Lord, grant us the forgiveness of our sins.

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In the above prayer to God, we are asking Him to hear the prayers of our righteous father, holy John the Golden mouthed, on our behalf, for the forgiveness of our sins. It is also a request to John to pray for us.

prodromos said:

In the above prayer to God, we are asking Him to hear the prayers of our righteous father, holy John the Golden mouthed, on our behalf, for the forgiveness of our sins. It is also a request to John to pray for us.

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I think this is a beautiful expression of praying with and in the community of saints properly expressing our belief in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church reaching around the planet and through the ages.

Thank you for sharing it with us.

Philip_B said:

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I think this is a beautiful expression of praying with and in the community of saints properly expressing our belief in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church reaching around the planet and through the ages.

Thank you for sharing it with us.

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All you have to do is confess your sins:

1 John 1
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

No need to venture into dangerous practices.

There is nothing dangerous about asking that the Lord forgive us our sins. This is right and necessary to do, and the more help we can get in the process from the saints who surround us, the better. We are not meant to be islands unto ourselves. "But woe to him who is alone when he falls, for he has no one to help him up." (Ecclesiastes 4:10)

dzheremi said:

There is nothing dangerous about asking that the Lord forgive us our sins. This is right and necessary to do, and the more help we can get in the process from the saints who surround us, the better. We are not meant to be islands unto ourselves. "But woe to him who is alone when he falls, for he has no one to help him up." (Ecclesiastes 4:10)

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The more I learn about icon adoration and mediation from saints, the more I worry about systems that don't have checks and balances. Augustine obtained power because of family connections and old money. He defamed Pelagius, even used Manichaean argumentation to debate the latter . Thank the Lord that no one presently has that type of power and influence. Everyone is open for questioning. It's Scripture that has the last word.

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Question: "What does the Bible say about praying to / speaking to / talking to the dead?"

Answer: Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent—everywhere at once—and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand, does not possess this attribute. Also, God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. In this regard, God is omnipotent—all powerful (Revelation 19:6). Certainly this is an attribute a human being—dead or alive—does not possess. Finally, God is omniscient—He knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before we pray, God knows our genuine needs and knows them better than we do. Not only does He know our needs, but He answers our prayers according to His perfect will.

So, in order for a dead person to receive prayers, the dead individual has to hear the prayer, possess the power to answer it, and know how to answer it in a way that is best for the individual praying. Only God hears and answers prayer because of His perfect essence and because of what some theologians call His “immanence.” Immanence is the quality of God that causes Him to be directly involved with the affairs of mankind (1 Timothy 6:14-15); this includes answering prayer.

Even after a person dies, God is still involved with that person and his destination. Hebrews 9:27 says so: “…Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” If a person dies in Christ, he goes to heaven to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-9, especially verse 8); if a person dies in his sin, he goes to hell, and eventually everyone in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

A person suffering in agony will not be able to hear or answer a prayer, nor will a person who is living in heavenly bliss with God. If we pray to someone and he is in eternal agony, should we expect him to be able to hear and answer our prayers? Likewise, would a person in heaven be concerned for temporal problems on earth? God has provided His Son, Jesus Christ, to be the mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). With Jesus Christ as our mediator, we can go through Jesus to God. Why would we want to go through a sinful dead individual, especially when doing so risks the wrath of God?


communicate with the dead is wrong bible - Google Search

As for Ecclesiastes 4:10, reading on:

Ecclesiastes 4
11Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
But how can one keep warm alone?

I don't know what any of what you have written about St. Augustine or the rest of this has to do with what I posted. And Ecclesiates 4 makes the further point that a threefold chord is not easily broken. Following this, we can say that the hundreds of saints found throughout all of Christian history, in all places and among all peoples, represent something truly unbreakable.

dzheremi said:

I don't know what any of what you have written about St. Augustine or the rest of this has to do with what I posted. And Ecclesiates 4 makes the further point that a threefold chord is not easily broken. Following this, we can say that the hundreds of saints found throughout all of Christian history, in all places and among all peoples, represent something truly unbreakable.

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Augustine was responsible for formulating doctrine, and he couldn't even understand Greek. How did he get the job?

His poor linguistic skills led to the doctrine of Original Sin, which the EO rejects.

Bottomline, one doesn't need to perpetuate errors committed by unsuitable people. When you enter church, don't hang up your brain in the cloak room along with your hat.

Wordkeeper said:

All you have to do is confess your sins:

1 John 1
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

No need to venture into dangerous practices.

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I am sorry you do not understand that we are totally in agreement.

Wordkeeper said:

Augustine was responsible for formulating doctrine, and he couldn't even understand Greek. How did he get the job?

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What does this have to do with anything?

His poor linguistic skills led to the doctrine of Original Sin, which the EO rejects.

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And?

Bottomline, one doesn't need to perpetuate errors committed by unsuitable people. When you enter church, don't hang up your brain in the cloak room along with your hat.

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Please don't take this as an insult, but I honestly have no idea what it is that you are trying to say. The topic of this thread is praying to saints, not St. Augustine's "linguistic skills", the EO rejection of the RC idea of original sin, or turning one's brain off when entering church. It is not clear to me what any of these things have to do with the thread topic.

Wordkeeper said:

Question: "What does the Bible say about praying to / speaking to / talking to the dead?"

Answer: Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.

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"consulting the dead" is a two way conversation. Asking those righteous men and women who are alive in Christ to pray for us is a one way conversation. They are not the same. Prayer to the Saints is not seeking knowledge or guidance from the Saint, only their prayers to God our Father are sought.

prodromos said:

"consulting the dead" is a two way conversation. Asking those righteous men and women who are alive in Christ to pray for us is a one way conversation. They are not the same. Prayer to the Saints is not seeking knowledge or guidance from the Saint, only their prayers to God our Father are sought.

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That is why I prefer the expression of praying with and in the communion of saints.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord.

Wordkeeper said:

All you have to do is confess your sins:

1 John 1
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

No need to venture into dangerous practices.

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Seems to me the Catholic way is to go the longest route and avoid the direct straight towards God.

Episaw said:

Seems to me the Catholic way is to go the longest route and avoid the direct straight towards God.

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Scripture also says we are to confess our sins to one another. The traditional Churches maintain a structure in which we remain true to Scripture without leaving the possibility of scandalising the weaker members of their congregations by confessing to our priest.

Who do you confess your sins to in order to be obedient to God's word?

prodromos said:

Scripture also says we are to confess our sins to one another. The traditional Churches maintain a structure in which we remain true to Scripture without leaving the possibility of scandalising the weaker members of their congregations by confessing to our priest.

Who do you confess your sins to in order to be obedient to God's word?

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The use of certain terms in the Bible are often connected to interpretation, doctrine, spiritual nourishment. Bread, water, grain, fruit, wine etc. almost always mean revelation from God.

Isaiah 55
1Ho, every thirsty one, come ye to the waters, And he who hath no money, Come ye,
buy and eat, yea, come, buy Without money and without price, wine and milk.

These give life to the spirit and light to the eyes, so that a person can walk toward God.

Those who do not eat the flesh and drink the blood, or perform the sacrament without discernment, do not next sit down to receive spiritual nourishment, fall sick, even die, like Adam. Separated from God, not knowing His word, His guidance, is death.

Realisation of our poor spiritual health requires one to approach brothers and sisters for prayer. This is done after confession of the need.

The proof that the issue being corrected is poor spiritual health, lack of guidance from God, is:

James 5
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


I don't see the necessity for a priest. Any one can turn him back.

Episaw said:

Seems to me the Catholic way is to go the longest route and avoid the direct straight towards God.

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The priests have to justify their existence!

dzheremi said:

I don't know what any of what you have written about St. Augustine or the rest of this has to do with what I posted. And Ecclesiates 4 makes the further point that a threefold chord is not easily broken. Following this, we can say that the hundreds of saints found throughout all of Christian history, in all places and among all peoples, represent something truly unbreakable.

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There are all sorts of logical fallacies showing up here, including appealing to authority.

Suffice to say the only authority I need to look at for authentication is Scripture, and Scripture says confess directly to God for forgiveness of sins.

Philip_B said:

I am sorry you do not understand that we are totally in agreement.

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I don't see you confirming we should communicate directly with God. So no, no agreement at all.

dzheremi said:

What does this have to do with anything?



And?



Please don't take this as an insult, but I honestly have no idea what it is that you are trying to say. The topic of this thread is praying to saints, not St. Augustine's "linguistic skills", the EO rejection of the RC idea of original sin, or turning one's brain off when entering church. It is not clear to me what any of these things have to do with the thread topic.

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Even if saints are a separate category, those recognised by the institutional church, as opposed to the Scripturally supported definition, ALL BELIEVERS, what qualified them to be recognised?

They may have had a wow factor attached to the mountains of writing they churned out, but quantity isn't quality. The stuff they wrote has been shown to be pretty fanciful, and without Biblical basis.

Of course, they never had archaeological evidence of huge libraries of documents, both secular and Biblical, to help them, but poor interpretation is still poor interpretation. Augustine was particularly known for over usage of allegory. You should read him for amusement, or maybe to give you a peek into the mediaeval mind-set.