Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

Bible2+ · May 9, 2018

~Cassia~ said in post #470:

Talents mean what in scripture?

Are you thinking of the talents parable (Matthew 25:14-30)?

If so, it is about the judgment of Christians (of all times) by their individual works, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient Christians entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which will not begin until after the Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient Christians losing their salvation at Jesus' Second Coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46), and them entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17), which could be a fate of them having to drift through, or stay in some place, in the darkness of outer space.

Jesus Christ gives each Christian his or her own spiritual work to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:28-30; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10). And He gives different Christians different amounts of spiritual talents (Matthew 25:15). So it is not possible for all Christians to do the same spiritual work for Jesus, or to accomplish the same amount for Him. And so any one Christian should not (as sometimes happens) judge any other Christian for not doing the same spiritual work that he or she is doing, or for not accomplishing as much as he or she is accomplishing (Romans 14:4). Nor should any Christian think that the spiritual work which Jesus has given him or her is unnecessary and not a real part of the operation of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:14-30). But there is still no room for complacency, because for those Christians who have been given much spiritual talent by God, much will be required of them by God (Luke 12:48b). And for those Christians who have not been given as much spiritual talent by God, they are still expected to accomplish something for Him (Galatians 6:4-5), and not just to sit back and do nothing at all for Him (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

For Matthew 25:26,30 shows that even someone who was a servant of Jesus Christ can ultimately lose his salvation because of unrepentant laziness. One way that a Christian could desire to become lazy without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable, and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12). Love for God means choosing to do what God says to do (1 John 5:3). So if one's love for God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), one will no longer choose to do what God says to do (John 14:24), meaning that one will become lazy in God's eyes (Matthew 25:26,30).

Bible2+ · May 9, 2018

GodsGrace101 said in post #474:

Do you suppose John Calvin was inspired when he INVENTED Perseverance of the saints in the year 1,500?

Certainly not.

For Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that Christians are robots. For if Christians cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if, after he became a Christian, he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6), and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin, and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

Bible2+ · May 9, 2018

Doug Melven said in post #475:

My flesh is not born of God.

Are you a Gnostic Christian?

If so, note that the Bible shows that the initial salvation of Christians is wholistic (1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), just as their ultimate salvation will be wholistic (Romans 8:23-25).

But Gnosticism is an ancient religious movement which says that everything material is inherently evil, while only that which is purely spirit can be good. Gnosticism teaches that all humans used to be purely spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in a purely-spiritual heaven called the "Pleroma", until by some mishap humanity fell into the material universe and became trapped within fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of Biblical Christians, and the Creator of the material universe and of all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering within fleshly bodies and in the material universe.

Gnosticism became one of the main enemies of the early Church, and it will become the greatest enemy of the Church during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will instead bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon), and himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 12:9).

Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with Buddhism and Hinduism:

1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)

2. People must strive to escape the material realm completely, and enter a state which is wholly non-physical (Parinirvana in Buddhism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Brahman", from Hinduism.

3. The way for people to get free from their imprisonment within the material realm is through their minds attaining a certain level of enlightenment (Nirvana in Buddhism, Gnosis in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Moksha", from Hinduism.

4. The way for their minds to attain this certain level of enlightenment is through following the way of the Serpent (one legend of Buddhism says that the Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the King of the Serpents; and in Gnosticism, Gnosis comes from the Christ/the Serpent). Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea of the enlightening serpent, originally called "Kundalini", from Hinduism. (Regarding the serpent in Genesis 3, Gnostics see him as the good guy, while they see YHWH as the bad guy.)

The Bible contradicts each of the four points above:

1. The material realm is real, and was created by YHWH God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). God Himself is in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39), and He remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). So there is nothing evil about matter in itself.

2. People must strive to attain to a resurrection (Philippians 3:11) into an immortal human body of flesh and bones like the immortal human body of flesh and bones which Jesus Christ obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), and in which He will remain forever as Christians' fully-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26). His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and at His Second Coming He will show the scars of the Crucifixion on His body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

3. Resurrected people who have been truly enlightened/illuminated (Ephesians 1:18, Hebrews 10:32) by Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, John 8:32, John 3:36) will remain in the material realm (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), ultimately living on a New Earth, in the sense of a new surface for the earth, with God (Revelation 21:1-4).

4. The Serpent, Satan/Lucifer, is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #484:

Hebrews
10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:10,14 means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus Christ's body on the Cross has sanctified and perfected Christians. But the perfect tense does not denote permanence. For example, if someone says in the perfect tense: "I have washed my child", this does not mean that the child has been made permanently clean. For after having been washed, the child can then wrongly employ his free will to go out and play in the mud. Similarly, spiritually-washed Christians (1 Corinthians 6:11) can wrongly employ their free will to go back to wallowing in the mire of sin without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Corinthians 12:20-21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27; Luke 12:45-46). Also, the "forever" in Hebrews 10:14 does not denote a permanent perfection, but means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus is perpetually applied in the ongoing, and eternal, process by which Christians are "being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14, see the original Greek tense), so long as they are repenting from and confessing to God every sin that they commit (1 John 1:9,7, Hebrews 10:26-29).

zoidar · May 9, 2018

It feels like this has come to the point where no one is going to be convinced in either direction. The question is what we believe about God. Is he love? Did he love mankind so much that He sent his own Son to set us free? If He is a God of love, does he choose some people or did He in fact choose all men? Does He love everyone with the same burning love, or does he love some people less or differently? I think we should ask us this. What does it mean that God is LOVE? What do we believe about the character of God? Who is He?

GodsGrace101 · May 9, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Since my post was addressed to you, in response to your post responding to my post, how can it not be personal. But please don't err in thinking that being personal means attacking. An attack uses ad hominems, which I don't use.

What I posted included much Scripture, so that's what I'm doing; sticking with Scripture.

Your first post to me was #465, and your second post to me is the one I'm now responding to, which is #474. There is nothing in the first post about John 10:28 in your response. So, no you didn't explain anything about John 10:28.

But the FACT that Jesus DID state the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life cannot be refuted, nor changed by any other verse.

So maybe now would be a good time to explain why John 10:28 cannot be about eternal security, given what Jesus said. This is called exegesis.

The Bible doesn't teach this or many people would have shoved the verses down my throat by now. But no one has.

Please provide just one verse that says plainly, without metaphors or figures of speech, that salvation can be lost.

OK, please provide just one verse that says plainly, without metaphors or figures of speech, that one can be UN-sealed from the Holy Spirit and be "removed from Christ".

My challenge comes from Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

with Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

I've bolded the key to being "in Christ". We read that we are "included IN Christ" when "having believed". That is the aorist tense, meaning a point in time completed action. So, from that moment we are sealed IN HIM, which is the promised Holy Spirit. Who is a deposit which GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption as God's own possession.

So, from these 3 verses, all written in the same letter, by the same author, we know that once sealed, always sealed. OSAS for short.

Now, in order to refute what I've explained here, you'll need to find a verse that directly speaks to a NT believer losing the Holy Spirit. But you'll never find one.

Uh, like you DIDN'T with John 10:28. I even made it easy to find your first post to me.

However, Jesus spoke to His 11 remaining disciples by using an agricultural metaphor. First, He already assured them that they were "clean", meaning saved. So the state of salvation is NOT in view here, per v.3.

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

v.4-5 speak of bearing fruit, not staying or getting saved. It requires to remain or abide, as some translations render it.

This speaks of fellowship. Consider a married couple. Though the marital relationship is intact, is there always fellowship between them? Of course not. They can be either IN fellowship or OUT of fellowship. The same can occur with believers in their spiritual lives.

Or take the parent-child relationship. Though permanent, it is obvious to everyone that there isn't always fellowship between parent and child. In fact, there may be not much or even none at all. But the relationship cannot be broken.

So both of these examples prove that a permanent relationship can have fellowship or not. The parable of the prodigal is just such a one. The son remained the son throughout, but his asking for his inheritance while dad was still alive was akin to telling his father that he wished he were dead. So it's obvious that the son left out of fellowship with his father. But after confessing his sin and repenting (returning to his father) fellowship was restored.

But it seems many want to spiritualize this parable into the son losing (or never having) a relationship with the father, and getting saved at the end of the parable. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

So, the point of John 15:1-6 is that in order to bear fruit, one MUST be IN fellowship with the Lord.

There are 4 specific commands that related to the Holy Spirit:
1. be filled with the Spirit Eph 5:18
2. walk by the Spirit Gal 5:16
3. stop grieving the Spirit Eph 4:30
4. stop quenching the Spirit 1 Thess 5:19

The first 2 reflect being IN fellowship with the Lord. The last 2 reflect being OUT of fellowship with the Lord.

The word "fire" is used throughout Scripture to speak of God's discipline during the believer's life on earth and has NO connection with hell or the lake of fire.

It also speaks of judgment. Consider 1 Cor 3:14,15
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This shows that believers may suffer loss (of reward) but YET WILL BE SAVED.

No, I've explained it.

I care much more what the Bible says.

No, I don't, since Paul and Jesus taught otherwise. Luke 8:13 and 1 Tim 4:1 refute what John Calvin said in 1500 AD.

It's what the Bible says that counts the most.

I'm going to let you quote ANY of these verses that actually lists ANY condition for a believer to not perish.

All this just reveals that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients (believers) of eternal life to not perish.

Nope. You pick ANY one that actually says there are conditions for believers to meet in order to never perish.

I know He did. But guess what. What makes you think that anyone IS "fit for the kingdom"? Are we all not sinners? Of course we are. 1 John 1:8,10 says so.

What cost did Jesus give us to count in order to never perish?

Since Jesus taught it, along with Paul, Peter (1:23) and other inspired writers of Scripture, I don't think so.

otoh, those who teach doctrines that contradict Scripture are doing that.

First, dear woman, they WON'T lose salvation.
Second, every believer is responsible for their own actions, if you didn't know that.

But I do know what's on your mind here. The teaching of GRACE leads to this so-called "license to sin" nonsense.

Its nonsense since we ALL have our original sinful flesh or nature. So we don't need any license to sin.

But what your thoughts also reveal is your woeful lack of understanding about God's discipline towards His wayward children.

Consider Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Couple of things to note here.
1. God's discipline is PAINFUL. Got that? So, no one "gets away with" anything, even though that seems to be the battle cry of the OSNAS crowd when they come to the teaching of GRACE.
2. The goal of God's painful discipline is to produce a harvest of righteousness, which is a holy lifestyle.
3. However, such production is realized ONLY by those who have been "trained by it".

Question: is everyone who receives discipline trained by it? Of course not.

It IS. But not to keep one's salvation.

Consider Col 1:
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

So, instead of occurring after v.22, let's state the red words FIRST:

"if you continue in your faith". Then what? The answer is in v.22

"God reconciled you by Christ's death to present you holy in His sight, wihtout blemish and free from accusation".

iow, the ONLY WAY for God to present any of His children (believers) holy and blameless is IF you continue in your faith.

What isn't found in this context is any mention of continuing in your faith to stay saved.

You know about ad hominems. Maybe you could learn to use syntax so it would be easier to answer you ... without having to go back and forth to what I said to which you're replying.

As to being personal..this is personal; you said:
I'm guessing you are not familiar with the purpose of metaphors and figures of speech.
Please don't "guess" anything about me. We don't know each other...let's just stick to scripture.

Also, you sure do put a lot out there - it would take an hour to reply to you.

You ask for verses with no metaphors or figures of speech and then you give me Epesians 1:13-14 and Ephesians 4:30. Interesting; I guess YOU can do what you don't want ME to do.

As to OSAS, have you changed the meaning of what these letters stand for? (once sealed always sealed) I don't think you can take it upon yourself to change the meaning of OSAS.

So, we'll take your verses one by one.

John 10:28
Jesus never lies. Those who go through the door are the shepherd of the sheep. John 10:2.
The doorkeeper opens the door, this would be God (sorry about the metaphors, but, as you must surely know, Jesus did speak in metaphors) since it is God who recognizes the shepherd and lets Him into the gate where all the sheep await him.
Ezekiel 34:11

The sheep know the voice of the shepherd and FOLLOW HIM.
If we stop following the shepherd, we are no longer His sheep.

Then Jesus explains the above.
John 10:7
Jesus is the door. If any man enters through the door he will be saved.

Jesus has come to bring to believers an abundant and joyful life.
John 10:10 If we are IN CHRSIT, we have this abundant life, if we are NOT IN CHRIST, we will not have this life of which Jesus speaks.

See Hebrews 13:16-21 which states that Jesus is the good shepherd-
16And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

18Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things. 19And I urge you all the more to do this, so that I may be restored to you the sooner.
20Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, 21equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

You'll notice in the above that there are conditions to be kept.
1. We must do good.
2. We must submit to our leaders.
3. We must conduct ourselves honorably.
4. We must do His will.

Jesus Himself stated that if we do not do the above, we will be judged to condemnation.
John 5:28-29
28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

It's plain by Jesus' words that He is speaking about being condemned and losing our salvation if we do not CONTINUE in His ways and return to a life of doing evil. He is NOT speaking about gaining crowns in the afterlife, but losing heaven.

JESUS said:
John 8:31
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

So, yes, John 10:28 is true IF we are sheep of the shepherd and IF WE CONTINUE IN HIS WORD.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
Romans 8:38-29

Except, of course, OURSELVES, by not following the conditions to being saved.

GodsGrace101 · May 9, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Then please show me exactly where in that verse Jesus mentioned anything about abiding. I've already explained John 15, so by now, I expect that you've read it. So please don't bring it up again. It's irrelevant to the issue of salvation.

But no one can. I also shared Eph 1:1314, with 4:30 to prove that you can't.

If Jesus tells us to ABIDE in HIM, it must be important.
NOT ABIDING in Him must have harsh consequences!

GodsGrace101 · May 9, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
1 John 1 - 6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. “

Notice the “we” part referring to believers and the lie part. All liars shall have thier part in the lake of fire

And notice how some can try and say they are saved in the light but then walk in darkness. This is like those who say they are OSAS and yet walk in darkness.

And

1 John 2 - 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him... 9. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. ..11. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.”

And here is how the warning of hating a brother in darkness relates to eternal life

1 John 3 - 15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him”

There’s that word abiding again
And so John exhirts them to remain n and continue and let the word abide in them to continue in eternal life

1 John 2 - 24. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.”

GodsGrace101 · May 9, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Nonsense. I've explained it every time it comes up. This does suggest that you don't read my posts. Are you just speaking over me? Ignoring what I post, and then just firing off another "talking point" post?

I've explained the meaning of "abiding" many times. It's clear you're not even interested in understanding it. You've got your biases and the need to hold onto your biases in order to support your OSNAS view.

Gee. I think we all have our biases, don't we?
Problem is, yours are incorrect and the entire N.T. proves it.

There is NO REASON to explain what Abide means.
We all know what it means. It means to LIVE WITH.
IF we live with Christ, we're saved.
IF we do NOT live with Christ, we're NOT saved...

No matter at which point of our spiritual lives this happens....
It definitely happens before we know Christ, and it could also happen after we know Christ should we decide to go back to our previous life, at which point we will no longer be abiding in Christ.

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2018

I said:
"But when a believer grieves or quenches the Spirit, they are not in fellowship, but out of fellowship. No fellowship, no intimacy, and no fruit bearing. They are sinning."

LoveofTruth said:
You are absolutely wrong here John says those who sinneth here have not seen Jesus or known him.

I'm certainly NOT wrong about fellowship with the Spirit by being filled with the Spirit and walking by Him. And NOT grieving/quenching the Spirit.

It find it really odd that you've never made any comments about the 4 specific commands regarding the Holy Spirit. I'm guessing they don't fit very well into your theology.

I choose to believe Jesus speaking through John over your made up stuff there and your acting talk.

I make up nothing. And I have Scripture to support everything I post. Unlike you.

And what you do quote from Scripture is just totally misunderstood, likely from your unfamiliarity with the Holy Spirit and how to be in fellowship with Him.

But, regarding acting, consider this:
1 Cor 3:3,4
3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

Are you going to argue that there is a difference between "acting like" and "are"?

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2018

Doug Melven said:
There is nothing about abiding in Him in John 6:37, you added that.

This says that if you abide in Him you don't sin. It doesn't say if you sin you are no longer abiding in Him.
If you are sinning it means you are not in Him, in fact you never were in Him.
But we know that believers still sin. So how can this verse be true as is?
This verse is referring to our spirit, not our body or soul.
That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
We are born-again by the Spirit of God.
We still sin with our mind and body, not our spirit.

This is exactly what 1 John 3:9 is speaking about.

:oldthumbsup:

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Note that even though Judas the apostle was chosen/elect/saved/empowered like the other apostles (Luke 6:13-16, Mark 6:7-13, Matthew 19:28), he still subsequently became a devil (John 6:70-71) who would ultimately become unsaved (Mark 14:21), because he wrongly employed his free will to begin to love money more than Jesus Christ (John 12:3-6, Mark 14:3-11; cf. 1 Timothy 6:10, Matthew 6:24).

None of these verses, nor any other, say that Judas was "saved", as you claim here. He was elected to serve the purpose of betraying Christ.

Jesus made it painfully (to you) clear in John 6:70 that he was a devil when Jesus chose him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25).

Are you kidding? Did you not actually read the verse? Jesus gave us ALL 3 tenses regarding the results of believing in the present, as in 'right now'.

First, those who believe right now HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. It's a present possession.

Second, those who believe right now SHALL NOT come into condemnation in the future.

Third, those who believe right now HAVE PASSED from spiritual death to spiritual (eternal) life. iow, they were in spiritual death in the past, but moved from that state to eternal life.

John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe

Gotta stop you right here, before all the verses you list.

This is an abuse of Greek grammar. There is NOTHING in the Greek present tense that even suggests that results of a present (right now) action only occur IF the present action continues on. That is just FALSE.

However, since you are making this claim, please consult Greek grammar texts and share what you think the present tense is about.

All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well.

(Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

None of these verses support your erroneous ideas about the present tense.

Note that John 10:28 does not contradict Hebrews 6:4-8.

Of course no verse contradicts any other verse. Which is why there are NO verses anywhere that teach that salvation can be lost.

For John 10:28 does not say or require that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his free will to jump out of God's hand himself.

Apparently you forgot to read the verse. It says on the basis of receiving eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH. And Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS in order to not perish.

As to your claim that a believer can "jump out of God's hand himself" is absurd.

Jesus said "no one". That means "no person or angel". Are you a person? I know you're not an angel. If you are a person, then EVEN YOURSELF cannot remove yourself from God's hand.

Are you more powerful than God? I know that you know the answer.

No one actually means no one, and that includes the believer him/herself.

BNR32FAN · May 9, 2018

Doug Melven said:
The difference between you and I is I see the Scripture as absolute, you don't.
1 John 4:17 is a perfect example. It is not conditional in any way.
The verse says "As Christ is so are we in this world". Right now, we are just like Christ is right now.
Hebrews 3:14 says we are partakers of Christ. Not even close to matching up.
My experience says I am not like Christ at all.
I still sin. Christ does not.
I don't know everything. Christ is omniscient.

Another example is 1 John 3:6.
This verse says we do not commit sin, in fact we can't sin because the seed of God remains in us.
But, believers still sin. So our experience doesn't match the Scripture.
You think this verse is referring to repentance. As in once we are born-again we do our best to stop sinning.
But, the verse we can't sin. Not we won't or shouldn't sin because we are born-again. It says we can't sin.
There is a big difference between can't and won't.
Sometimes people will be asked to do something and they reply that they can't.
So then they are asked, "Can't or won't"?
Won't means you are capable but you decide not to for whatever reason. Maybe afraid of the consequences.
But, if you can't, that means you are incapable of doing such a thing.
Remember the verse says, "We can't sin".

I accept the Scripture as is. I don't try to change it to match my experience.
My perception of reality can lie to me.
I deny my experience if it doesn't line up with Scripture.
So, how is it that a person who is born of God can't sin.
We are more than just body and soul. We are spirit also.
My body was not reborn when I accepted Christ. I was about 20 pounds overweight when I did. Now 30 years later I am about 50 pounds overweight and balding.
My soul was not made new. I didn't know everything then, and I still don't know everything. 1 John 2:20, 27
My spirit which was dead, has been reborn, made alive. In my spirit which is one with God ( 1 Corinthians 6:17 )
knows everything and is completely righteous and just like Jesus Christ.

Actually you only see what you want to see in the scriptures. You ignore all the scriptures that contradict eternal security which is why you never give any explanation of the scriptures I post. Like for example Psalms 69:28 explains that someone’ name can be blotted out of the book of life. A perfect example of someone having salvation then losing it. I’ve posted it several times and you decline to address it and completely ignore it by continuing to teach eternal security. Like I’ve said before John Calvin was wrong in so many ways.

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
As to being personal..this is personal; you said:
I'm guessing you are not familiar with the purpose of metaphors and figures of speech.
Please don't "guess" anything about me. We don't know each other...let's just stick to scripture.

I'm offering my opinion of what it seems your posts indicate.

Also, you sure do put a lot out there - it would take an hour to reply to you.

Thank you.

You ask for verses with no metaphors or figures of speech and then you give me Epesians 1:13-14 and Ephesians 4:30. Interesting; I guess YOU can do what you don't want ME to do.

Huh? What metaphors in these verses? The "seal"? This is a literal seal, the Holy Spirit. Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit is a isn't literal? Or a metaphor?

As to OSAS, have you changed the meaning of what these letters stand for? (once sealed always sealed) I don't think you can take it upon yourself to change the meaning of OSAS.

lol. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with once sealed always sealed? That's the only relevant point here. And I changed nothing.

I was pointing out that once saved always saved can be said once sealed always sealed. If you disagree, please proceed with an explanation for why.

So, we'll take your verses one by one.

John 10:28
Jesus never lies. Those who go through the door are the shepherd of the sheep. John 10:2.
The doorkeeper opens the door, this would be God (sorry about the metaphors, but, as you must surely know, Jesus did speak in metaphors) since it is God who recognizes the shepherd and lets Him into the gate where all the sheep await him.
Ezekiel 34:11

The sheep know the voice of the shepherd and FOLLOW HIM.
If we stop following the shepherd, we are no longer His sheep.

We'll pause right here. You don't have any verse that supports your opinion about "no longer being His sheep". So please don't make stuff up.

Then Jesus explains the above.
John 10:7
Jesus is the door. If any man enters through the door he will be saved.

This is what makes a sheep His sheep.

Jesus has come to bring to believers an abundant and joyful life.
John 10:10 If we are IN CHRSIT, we have this abundant life, if we are NOT IN CHRIST, we will not have this life of which Jesus speaks.

Don't forget that once IN CHRIST, we can't get out, as it seems you are insinuating here. Again, you have no verses about being UNsealed from the Holy Spirit and being removed from being IN Him.

See Hebrews 13:16-21 which states that Jesus is the good shepherd-

16And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

18Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things. 19And I urge you all the more to do this, so that I may be restored to you the sooner.
20Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, 21equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

You'll notice in the above that there are conditions to be kept.
1. We must do good.
2. We must submit to our leaders.
3. We must conduct ourselves honorably.
4. We must do His will.

And none of this is related to either receiving or maintaining salvation. Therefore, it isn't relevant to the discussion of eternal security.

Jesus Himself stated that if we do not do the above, we will be judged to condemnation.
John 5:28-29

28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

It's plain by Jesus' words that He is speaking about being condemned and losing our salvation if we do not CONTINUE in His ways and return to a life of doing evil. He is NOT speaking about gaining crowns in the afterlife, but losing heaven.

No He is not. Did you read 5:24? Scroll back 4 verses:
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and WILL NOT be concdemned, he has crossed over from death to life."

Did you notice the 3 tenses: past, present and future all in that verse?

These are promises (guarantees). This verse, along with John 10:28, teach eternal security on the basis of believing in Christ.

JESUS said:
John 8:31

31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

Yes, I noticed that. What I also notice is that Jesus DIDN'T say "if you continue in My word, then you will STAY SAVED", which it seems you believe He meant.

So, yes, John 10:28 is true IF we are sheep of the shepherd and IF WE

CONTINUE IN HIS WORD.

If this is true, why did Jesus leave out the "if you continue" part that you've INSERTED into the verse? You have no authority to do that.

Let's just please stay with what Jesus actually said in John 10:28.

Did you notice that Jesus was teaching us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in that verse?

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Christ, by "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing, by "and they shall never perish".

What is clear is that on the basis of receiving eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. No conditions, no "as long as..." and no "if's...".

Please don't try to put words into Jesus' mouth. He can speak for Himself. Our responsibility is to believe what He says. All of it.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
Romans 8:38-29

Another great passage on eternal security.

Except, of course, OURSELVES, by not following the conditions to being saved.

Except, of course, Rom 8:38 doesn't give you the right to your own personal opinion on the matter. Notice that Paul indicated that NEITHER the present nor the future can separate us from the love of Christ.

Do you understand what the "future" includes? Well, everything that may occur IN the future. So your opinion about "ourselves" is in error.

And, the ONLY condition for being saved is to believe in Christ.

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
If Jesus tells us to ABIDE in HIM, it must be important.
NOT ABIDING in Him must have harsh consequences!

Absolutely true!! But not for maintain salvation. There are no verses about that.

What most OSNAS types think is that abiding is about the person having the power to remove themselves from being IN Christ. Well, no one has that much power.

To abide is something we DO. But it has nothing to do with salvation, because we have NOTHING to do about being saved. All we can do is receive salvation by faith. Eph 2:8

So, to abide is about being IN fellowship. That's a choice we make.

Paul gave us 4 specific commands regarding the Holy Spirit
1. be filled with the Spirit Eph 5;18
2. walk by the Spirit Gal 5:16
3. stop grieving the Spirit Eph 4:30
4. stop quenching the Spirit 1 Thess 5:19

The first 2 commands are about being IN fellowship. The lasts 2 are about being OUT of fellowship if we are doing those things.

I wonder if you are aware of these commands and their significance?

Even WHEN a believer grieves the Spirit, Paul reminds us of what the Spirit has done for us in Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Do you understand what "for the day of redemption" refers to? We are eternally secure on the basis of being sealed by the Spirit; EVEN WHEN we grieve Him.

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Gee. I think we all have our biases, don't we?
Problem is, yours are incorrect and the entire N.T. proves it.

Oh, quite a claim. Can you back it up with ANY verses? What makes your claim true?

There is NO REASON to explain what Abide means.

Right. let's just ignore what any word means.

We all know what it means. It means to LIVE WITH.
IF we live with Christ, we're saved.
IF we do NOT live with Christ, we're NOT saved...

I hate to break it to you, but you do NOT have any power to effect your own salvation.

What you DO have the power (choice) to do is to either be IN fellowship with the Lord or OUT of fellowship with the Lord, as I showed in my last post about the commands regarding the Holy Spirit.

No matter at which point of our spiritual lives this happens....
It definitely happens before we know Christ, and it could also happen after we know Christ should we decide to go back to our previous life, at which point we will no longer be abiding in Christ.

What "definitely happens before we know Christ"? I'm not following your line of thought.

LoveofTruth · May 9, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
But, regarding acting, consider this:
1 Cor 3:3,4
3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

Are you going to argue that there is a difference between "acting like" and "are"?

No, I'm going to argue that the word "acting" is not in the Greek and it should read this way

"3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"(1 Corinthians 3:4,5 KJV)

The word "carnal"in Greek means "pertaining to the flesh...by implication unregenerate..fleshly"

and there is definately no word "acting" like children of the devil, or acting like a child of God in 1 John 3:6-10 KJV.

so you need to admit your error here and that 1 John 3:6-10 collapses your argument. It shows clearly that a person who walks in darkness cannot say they are in the light and if they do they lie. By extension it is the same as a person who says they are in Christ and a believer and yet walks in darkness and says they are still in Christ. They lie.

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
No, I'm going to argue that the word "acting" is not in the Greek and it should read this way

"3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"(1 Corinthians 3:4,5 KJV)

The word "carnal"in Greek means "pertaining to the flesh...by implication unregenerate..fleshly"

and there is definately no word "acting" like children of the devil, or acting like a child of God in 1 John 3:6-10 KJV.

so you need to admit your error here and that 1 John 3:6-10 collapses your argument.

That is your opinion only. I just showed where Paul used the word "acting", followed by "are". You have no point.

It shows clearly that a person who walks in darkness cannot say they are in the light and if they do they lie.

I agree with this. Of course this is true. But you just see it very differently, by your refusal or just failure to understand the issue of fellowship.

By extension it is the same as a person who says they are in Christ and a believer and yet walks in darkness and says they are still in Christ. They lie.

Do you then believe that Jesus was lying when He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life for never perishing?

Do you believe that Paul was lying when he described that those "having believed" (aorist tense) ARE (presently) sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption?

If you believe that salvation can be lost, you have a serious problem with both john 10:28 and Eph 1:13,14 with 4:30.

LoveofTruth · May 9, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well.

while they who believed in Jesus at that time does point to the present tense. Believing is a daily thing just as faith is and there are verses that show a person in the ongoing tense and that they can go to a point in believing and then that believing can end and they can fall away. Just as we must also continue in the faith.

here is an example of that

"Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

This shows clearly that belief is an present reality and also an ongoing one and that it can end.

also we read

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

as long as we are alive and have breath we must believe.

Paul also said

"
1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain"

showing an ongoing action as well as a present tense reality

GodsGrace101 · May 9, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Jesus said if we abide in Him we will bear much fruit. If we don't abide in Him we will be cut off.
Does it say cut off from eternal life? No.
Because later in the passage He says that men, not God or angels, will gather them up and burn them.
This is talking about this life, not the next.
It is very important to abide in Christ if we want to bear fruit, see Galatians 5:22-23.
But if we are not abiding in Him, that is spending time in prayer and studying His Word, we will not see fruit in our life. There is nothing here about losing eternal life or salvation.

Men will be gathering the branches? As @FreeGrace2 would say, this is a metaphore. Do you suppose there are trees in heaven from which branches will be cut?
If there's a branch on a tree and it's CUT OFF, it means it has now been SEVERED from that tree and is no longer a PART of the tree. It will eventually whither and die. Yes, it speaking to eternal life. Jesus was serious about eternal life, not crowns and not anything else except to teach us how to get to heaven.
1 John 2:17
1 John 5:13
John 3:16

1 Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
2 Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
3 Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
4 Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
5 Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them
6 Hebrews
10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
7 1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Notice the 2 different believe's in this verse. The first one gives us eternal life. We possess it. We also need to believe for blessings. Not continue to believe to get something we already possess.
8 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
9 John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Yet some people think Jesus will cast us out or cut us off from eternal life.
10 Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
11 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
You don't belong to you anymore. Once you were joined to the LORD, you belong to Him now.

All of the above are true but apparently misunderstood.
Which one should I post about?

Scripture please?

About what? About future sins.
Please post a scripture since YOU brought it up.

Did He actually say that?
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Where does it say anything about abandoning?

Did he actually say what?
Syntax please.

If Jesus IS the light...
And men hate the LIGHT...
Then those men hate JESUS...

Jesus Himself said so...
Mathew 5:11-12
11“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Many hate Christianity and also hate us.
The dark cannot stand the light.
Move a stone where insects have gathered underneath to hide from the light...they scatter.

LoveofTruth · May 9, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well.

and

Psalm 106:12
Then believed they his words; they sang his praise."

they didn't believe just one word at that one moment. To believe his words plural means to believe all they hear. This is present and ongoing action.

Proverbs 14:15
"The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going."

again believing every word is not believing one single word. So showing present and ongoing belief.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

this is applying an ongoing belief to prayer showing a present tense during the prayer and an ongoing tense for future prayer.

John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

believers must continue in His word...ongoing

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