Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

FreeGrace2 · May 8, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
No that is your straw man argument. I never said for a second or even implied that Jesus was lying in John 10:28 I agree with John 10:28.

No you don't agree with it. You keep ADDING conditions for recipients to meet in order to never perish. How can you claim otherwise.

Your condition is that recipients must continue to believe and you've posted this many times.

But I do not do as you do and rip it out of the book of John and when ever another statement of Jesus clarifies what he is saying and when he adds conditions you simply ignore them and say Jesus didn't say that in John 10:28.

It is clear that you have no idea what "context" means. You've only pulled verses from other contexts to make your point. Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients to never perish. But you disagree. You claim recipients must continue to believe an abide.

I explained John 10 with other statements of Jesus and gave a larger picture of the condition to have eternal life and to abide in eternal life.

That's just conflating unrelated verses to try to make your point.

What Jesus said was straight forward and needs no "explanation" from other verses.

But verses like 1 John 2:24,25 seem to allude you and you dont see them.

No they don't allude me.

If a person is a believer they are saved as Jesus said in Luke 8. If they do not believe they are a unbeliever and condemned as Jesus said in John 3.[/QUOTE]
Another assumption on your part. When the Bible speaks of an unbeliever, it always means one who never believed. And there are no verses that speak of former believers who lost their salvation.

We also see a warning in hebrews 3;12 of a believer being warned not to have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.

Why do you continue to assume this means departing from salvation? It doesn't say that, but your rose colored glasses just can't help themselves.

I marvel at how you still say those with an evil heart of unbelief are saved?

Do you understand anything about the Exodus generation? Paul made it clear that they were saved, per 1 Cor 10:1-5. I recommend that you read it.

The problem with that crowd of idiots was they they had no lifestyle faith. They weren't trusting God for their day to day provisions. This isn't saving faith, but trusting God to keep them alive. So God kept that first generation out of the land, for that reason, and they all died in the desert, over 40 years. And it was their children who went into the land.

Then in Chapter 4:1 of Hebrews still in context to chapter 3 we read

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it....9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."(Hebrews 4:1,9-11 KJV)

Why do you assume "entering into His rest" is a reference to salvation? It refers to the blessings of God that must be earned. They had to fight for the land. That's NOT a picture of salvation. Not by any means.

Christ is our rest only as we abide in him do we have rest.

yes, yes, yes. This is fellowship with Him. This is beyond salvation. It's the quality of the relationship (salvation).

that rest in him is salvation and only accessed by belief, faith.

nope, you're not getting it. I guess the principle of fellowship just isn't in your theology.

So, go ahead and cut 1 John 1 out of your Bible.

Yet somehow you still say they are saved and did not lose salvation.

Because the Bible never says one can lose salvation.

if a man is not in the rest of Christ having once rested in him through belief and then departs through an evil heart of unbelief, why do you say they are still in Christ and his rest and saved.

There is no way to explain this since you've rejected the very principle of fellowship.

To be in unbelief i s very dangerous as scripture shows

Agreed! But not for the reason you think it is dangerous.

FreeGrace2 · May 8, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I said

You still need to answer your words you added to the text about some "acting" like children of God or "acting" like children of the devil, but you saying that they were not in fact children of the devil contrary to Johns words in 1 John 3:6-10
then you simply say,
and avoid and run from answering and explaining your added words to the text. You need to be held accountable for this. This is not right for you to make such statements and then run from answering it and dodge it all the time.

This discussion and added word to the text like "acting" will find you out and follow you...

Do you agree or disagree that when a believer sins, they are acting like the devil's children?

Infant salvation also shatters Calvinism and many pints of it and the OSAS crowd as well.

Uh, not, not the OSAS crowd at all. But yes, infant salvation does shatter Calvinism.

Many have not seriously examined how a one day old infant is saved.

The answer is easy. Christ died for everyone. They are covered for that reason, and the fact that they have not reached the age of accountability in order to believe or reject the gospel.

LoveofTruth · May 8, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you agree or disagree that when a believer sins, they are acting like the devil's children?

John doesn't say they are "acting" he says they are children of the devil, or children of God.I don;t agree with you at all in this area.

If they do not righteousness they are not of God as John says clearly. He doesn't say they are "acting" like they are not of God

John clealry says whoseover committeth sin is of the devil. But in your doctrine they are only acting like they are of the devil. No they are od the devil. But you say no they are of God still. John seems to be warning all believers against the very thing you promote and the OSAS crowd who say no when you commit sin you are still of God. re read 1 John 3:6 and comment

FreeGrace2 said:
Uh, not, not the OSAS crowd at all. But yes, infant salvation does shatter Calvinism.

The answer is easy. Christ died for everyone. They are covered for that reason, and the fact that they have not reached the age of accountability in order to believe or reject the gospel.

it does shatter both Calvinism and OSAS. Because if all infants at one day old are saved once, and in the light of Christ through the grace of God's salvation of them. Then they have sin revive and their sin nature is provoked by the commandment that they now understand or as Jesus said the light shines and they see their worlds are evil, then they die spiritually and and condemned and need to be born again. So in the truest sense all humans are saved by Gods grace once then they die and need to be born again and yet many will end up in the lake of fire. This shows that a infant who has the true Light shining in them and who are given the free gift through the work of Christ that came upon them all ( Romans 5) are saved then and they will die when they have sin revieve. They die spiritually and need to be born again.

This defeats the OSAS crowd. Because it shows that all infants are like sheep when they come into the world and are saved by the grace of God and then they sin and have sin revived and die and can be lost and go to the lake of fire.

By the way i have many discussions proving OSAS wrong I was trying to focus on Judas in the other forum. But there are many and they take long to go through them all. Infant salvation is one of them that defeats Calvinism and OSAS.

LoveofTruth · May 8, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
yes, yes, yes. This is fellowship with Him. This is beyond salvation. It's the quality of the relationship (salvation).

When ever i seem to show you clear verses that show a person has to take heed or he can depart from God through and evil heart of unbelief and that all unbelievers will have their part in the lake of fire. Or when i show you that to be in the rest of Christ and have him as our rest is to cease from our own works and have faith in him ( which is the first things we need to do as Hebrews 6:1 speaks of). You simply say no that's only fellowship

But I am trying to show you that to have salvation is to be in fellowship and bear fruit and walk in the light and rest in Christ work for your salvation. if we believe not and harden our hearts and have a evil heart of unbelief, then we are no longer in salvation which contains fellowship, fruit bearing, walking in the light knowing God and victory over sin. As scripture clearly says to the unbiased reader/

You seem to run to the word fellowship as if it is somehow not related to salvation. But it is our fellowship is only in salvation as we walk in the light and continue in the faith. if we depart from God we depart from salvation in Christ which is known through our fellowship and fruit bearing as we live and move in Christ.

The word fellowship means our sharing with Jesus anything in him, and our partnership with him. Which is only as we abide in the vine and our participation and communion with him which is only as we are in the light of salvation.

John says if we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie. and do not the truth. He says also if we say we are in the light and walk in darkness we lie. But if we walk in the light then and only then does the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us from all sin.

If a man says he is OSAS and yet walks in darkness and sinneth and does not abide in Christ he is lying and a as John says in 1 John 3:8,10 not of God and a child of the devil.

so back to 1 John 3:6 how do you interpret that

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)

so whoever does this cannot claim to have even seen Jesus or known him according to John

so what sayest thou?

LoveofTruth · May 8, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Because the Bible never says one can lose salvation.
.

Yes it does and Judas is a good example of that.

But how do you interpret this verse

" Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)

FreeGrace2 · May 8, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Do you agree or disagree that when a believer sins, they are acting like the devil's children?

LoveofTruth said:
John doesn't say they are "acting" he says they are children of the devil, or children of God.I don;t agree with you at all in this area.

OK, you're free to believe what you want.

If they do not righteousness they are not of God as John says clearly. He doesn't say they are "acting" like they are not of God

Haven't you ever heard the phrase "don't act up" or "act your age" or "quit acting like a child"?

John clealry says whoseover committeth sin is of the devil. But in your doctrine they are only acting like they are of the devil.

Who was the first sinner? The devil. So those who sin are certainly following his lead. They are acting like him. Whether you are willing to admit it or not.

No they are od the devil. But you say no they are of God still.

Do you have any verses that tell us that God's children can become the devil's children?

I said this:
"The answer is easy. Christ died for everyone. They are covered for that reason, and the fact that they have not reached the age of accountability in order to believe or reject the gospel."

It does shatter both Calvinism and OSAS.

It does shatter Calvinism with their doctrine of limited atonement. But please explain how it shatters OSAS.

Because if all infants at one day old are saved once, and in the light of Christ through the grace of God's salvation of them.

This sentence leaves me hanging. Because...what, exactly? Please finish the sentence.

Then they have sin revive and their sin nature is provoked by the commandment that they now understand or as Jesus said the light shines and they see their worlds are evil, then they die spiritually and and condemned and need to be born again. So in the truest sense all humans are saved by Gods grace once then they die and need to be born again and yet many will end up in the lake of fire. This shows that a infant who has the true Light shining in them and who are given the free gift through the work of Christ that came upon them all ( Romans 5) are saved then and they will die when they have sin revieve. They die spiritually and need to be born again.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

This defeats the OSAS crowd.

The paragraph doesn't make sense to me. So I can't evaluate your claim here.

Because it shows that all infants are like sheep when they come into the world and are saved by the grace of God and then they sin and have sin revived and die and can be lost and go to the lake of fire.

Huh? Still not tracking. People are saved WHEN they believe in Christ. But those who die BEFORE they reach accountability are covered, not by faith in Christ, but by the fact that Christ died for them.

iow, those who die before reaching accountability cannot believe. So if the ONLY way to get to heaven is faith in Christ, that would mean all who don't reach accountability will go to hell, even though they were unable to believe. God is not unfair. He is perfect.

So, all who don't reach accountability at the time of their death go to heaven.

By the way i have many discussions proving OSAS wrong I was trying to focus on Judas in the other forum.

I've seen none of them. And all your arguments are refuted by Jesus' teaching in John 10:28.

But there are many and they take long to go through them all. Infant salvation is one of them that defeats Calvinism and OSAS.

Actually, infant death salvation has no bearing on OSAS. Infants aren't in a saved state anyway.

FreeGrace2 · May 8, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
When ever i seem to show you clear verses that show a person has to take heed or he can depart from God through and evil heart of unbelief and that all unbelievers will have their part in the lake of fire.

Another sentence that leaves me hanging. Whenever you do "seem to show" me things, what? You need to finish your sentence.

I've never disagreed that a believer can get out of fellowship with God the same way the prodigal did with his father.

But you fail to understand that when the Bible speaks of unbelievers, it means those who never believed.

But, since your opinion is different, please provide any verse that speaks of a believer who ceased to believe being called an unbeliever. Then I'll believe your opinion.

Or when i show you that to be in the rest of Christ and have him as our rest is to cease from our own works and have faith in him ( which is the first things we need to do as Hebrews 6:1 speaks of). You simply say no that's only fellowship

Because it is.

But I am trying to show you that to have salvation is to be in fellowship and bear fruit and walk in the light and rest in Christ work for your salvation.

You remain confused about fellowship and relationship. In spite of my explanation.

if we believe not and harden our hearts and have a evil heart of unbelief, then we are no longer in salvation which contains fellowship, fruit bearing, walking in the light knowing God and victory over sin.

You have no verses that back you up here.

You seem to run to the word fellowship as if it is somehow not related to salvation.

i've already explained how it is different. I even used 2 examples from the human experience:
1. parent child relationship
2. husband-wife relationship

If you deny that in either example there can be fellowship or lack of fellowship, you're just closing your eyes to the facts.

The word fellowship means our sharing with Jesus anything in him, and our partnership with him. Which is only as we abide in the vine and our participation and communion with him which is only as we are in the light of salvation.

Fellowship speaks to the quality of our relationship. Just look at the 2 examples again and think about it.

John says if we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie. and do not the truth.

Did you notice what the verse didn't say? It didn't say "walk in darkness we lose salvation". You keep assuming what isn't there.

If a man says he is OSAS and yet walks in darkness and sinneth and does not abide in Christ he is lying and a as John says in 1 John 3:8,10 not of God and a child of the devil.

If this man ever believed, he was given eternal life, and he shall never perish.

So said Jesus. Yet, you still disagree with Him on this.

so back to 1 John 3:6 how do you interpret that

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)

so whoever does this cannot claim to have even seen Jesus or known him according to John

How many times do I need to explain this to you?

Those believers who do abide in Him cannot sin. Because they are in fellowship with Him and are filled with the Spirit and walking by the Spirit. It would be impossible to sin in that state.

But when a believer grieves or quenches the Spirit, they are not in fellowship, but out of fellowship. No fellowship, no intimacy, and no fruit bearing. They are sinning.

FreeGrace2 · May 8, 2018

I said:
"Because the Bible never says one can lose salvation."

LoveofTruth said:
Yes it does and Judas is a good example of that.

Stop it. You've shown NO verwes that says one can lose salvation.

If the Bible does say that, you'd have shown me by now. But all you've got are verses with metaphors and figures of speech and lots of assumptions.

LoveofTruth · May 8, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
But when a believer grieves or quenches the Spirit, they are not in fellowship, but out of fellowship. No fellowship, no intimacy, and no fruit bearing. They are sinning.

You are absolutely wrong here John says those who sinneth here have not seen Jesus or known him.

Read it again

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)

Only as believers abide (remain, continue dwell as the Greek says) in Christ sin not. If they abide not in him they "sinneth" and in that state they have not seen him neither known him.

This is all in line with Johns words in the entire book when he says if a man says he is in the light and hateth his brother he is in darkness and does not have eternal life abiding (remaining continuing or dwelling) in him. So he lost eternal life.

John also shows that no person who says he is in the light and I would add who says they are in eternal life can do what John warns of here and still say that they "know Jesus and have seen him". In the state of darkness they do not know God.

John also says whosever commiteth sin is of the devil. He did not say as you twist the words that they are only "acting" like they are of the devil

John says if a believer does not righteousness he is NOT of God. He did not say they are acting like they are not of God.

That is the best twist you can make up to avoid the clear text, this is very troubling that you try to say they are only acting like they are of the devil, when John says they are of the devil.

and 1 John 3:6 it does not say what you make it say. it says they have not seen him neither known him.

But you tell them yes they have seen him and known him.

I choose to believe Jesus speaking through John over your made up stuff there and your acting talk.

Doug Melven · May 8, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Jesus spoke through John about abiding for eternal life in 1 John 2:24,35 1 John 3:6-10,15. Etc

And John 15 is very relevant and related to salvation you seem afraid of that chapter so try to avoid it

It exposes your doctrine clearly and also Luke 8 dies about those who believe for a while then fall away

Let's look at the 2 passages you cite.
2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life

How would it be eternal life if it stopped? He promised eternal life. If you look in Hebrews 6:16-19 we are told we can lay hold on this promise and it is an anchor for our soul. God promised with an oath in which it is impossible for God to lie.
When you have an anchor you don't continually check to make sure it is there, especially when the one who guards the anchor neither slumbers nor sleeps.
He promised us eternal life so we would abide in Him, not so we can obtain eternal life.

1 John 3:6-10
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The verse in bold is the key to understanding this passage.
This is a reference to God being in us. And the results that will follow.
If an unbeliever does a "good work" it is not counted for him as good.
No matter how many "good works" an unbeliever does, they will not get eternal life for doing so.
We are not made righteous by keeping the law.
We are not made unrighteous by not keeping the law.
Because God said He will not impute sin to us.
God said He will be merciful to our unrighteousness.
God said our sins and lawless deeds He would remember no more.
Because God put all our iniquity on Jesus Christ.

There is nothing here about God leaving us.
You have to really twist these verses around to make them say if we don't abide in Him He will leave us.

John 15:1-6 Your interpretation is in direct conflict with John 6:37
He that comes to Jesus, He will in no wise cast out.
You say if we don't abide in Him He will cast us out.

Doug Melven · May 8, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
He doesn't cast out those that come to him through faith and abide in him and continue to believe. But if they abide not they are cast out as we see in John 15 and other places and with the whole discussion of Judas.

There is nothing about abiding in Him in John 6:37, you added that.

LoveofTruth said:
" Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)

This says that if you abide in Him you don't sin. It doesn't say if you sin you are no longer abiding in Him.
If you are sinning it means you are not in Him, in fact you never were in Him.
But we know that believers still sin. So how can this verse be true as is?
This verse is referring to our spirit, not our body or soul.
That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
We are born-again by the Spirit of God.
We still sin with our mind and body, not our spirit.

LoveofTruth · May 8, 2018

Doug Melven said:
This says that if you abide in Him you don't sin. It doesn't say if you sin you are no longer abiding in Him.
If you are sinning it means you are not in Him, in fact you never were in Him.
But we know that believers still sin. So how can this verse be true as is?
This verse is referring to our spirit, not our body or soul.
That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
We are born-again by the Spirit of God.
We still sin with our mind and body, not our spirit.

Part 1

It says if we abide in him we sin not, so the clear obvious meaning of someone who sinneth is that they are not abiding in him, John defines what abiding in him is related to, it is related to seeing him and knowing him.

And to be IN Christ is also to have him abide IN us. If Christ dwells in our heart by faith and works in us to make us perfect unto every good work to do his will (Hebrews 13:20,21) then to show forth your faith and that God is in you you will work righteousness and bear the fruit of the spirit sowing to the spirit to reap everlasting life. This is how we assure our hearts before him as John also said in 1 John 3 consider

'18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight."(1 John 3:18, 19,21,22 KJV)

Johns entire book is about abiding in Christ and getting victory over sin and the world and the devil

If a person who is a believer says they walk in the light but they then do unrighteousness and sin in their flesh and walk in darkness John said they lie and do not the truth. John shows that Jesus destroys the works of the devil and will give us victory as we abide in him and let that word of God abide in us and if we continue in this and the word remains in us then and only then can we continue in the Son and in the father and the promise of such an abiding is through faith and it is eternal life. as John said

"24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."(1 John 2;24,25 KJV)

The eternal life is Jesus Christ (1 John 1:1,2 and 1 John 5:20) he always is and in him is that eternal life for he is the life and the eternal life. But we can only be in him through faith and he in us as we abide in him through continual belief. It is possible for a believer to only continue for a while in that salvation and then fall away as Luke 8 shows in the sower parable.

But John warns of those who say they are in the light and walk in darkness. This means they do not have eternal life abiding (remaining or continuing) in them as John showed consider,

"3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him...6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked....9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."(1 John 2:3,4,9-11 KJV)

and with this hating of a brother we see how serious this is

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.1 John 3:15 KJV)

we can see that eternal life can abide in a person (1 John 2:24,25) and not abide (or remain or continue in a person). That is because eternal life is Jesus Christ himself.
So when we see 1 John 3:6 you should read the entire context of John about sin and abiding and victory over sin etc and we ought to walk even as jesus walked. But consider a few verses before 1 John 3:6-10

"3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. "

This hope is Christ in you the hope of glory, this is as they continue in the Son and in the Father and let that word of God abide in them. This is the seed that is in them, that seed is Christ in them as they abide in him and he in them. If they abide not they can be cast forth as a branch and withered and be without Christ as John also said in John 15. When John uses the word "abide" he means the same things as he recorded Jesus saying these things.

Also notice that if we are in Christ and he in us we purify ourself (as we live in the new man in Christ and through the power of the Spirit. Paul said if we through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body we shall live. We also read that they that are Christs have crucfied the flesh and he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Here John uses a similar expression as in 1 John 3:* when he says "whosoever committeth sin". This again is Johns focus here , not to sin and he exposes the sin as being in darkness and not in eternal life and not abiding in Christ.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. "

John shows that in him, that is to abide IN him is no sin. For he cleanseth us from all unrighteousness as we believe and walk in the light (1 John 1) and he destroys the works of the devil.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:3-6 KJV)

So as we abide or remain in him we do not sin because he gives us the victory and we die daily and pick up our cross and follow him. This is as we walk in the light as he is in the light.

But this is only as we abide in him we sinneth not. If we sin then we cannot say we are abiding in him.l In fact as John had been saying all through the book if a person says he knows him he ought so to walk even as Jesus walked and if he says he is in the light but walks in darkness he lies and does not know him then. In fact he has not seen him either . John says we cannot say we have seen him or known him if we are not abiding in Christ and we sin.

The question might be well, does that mean if we sin once that we can not claim to ever have knwon Jesus or seen him? The answer is, that if we walk in the flesh and darkness and are not abiding (remaining) in Christ we do not see him or know him. We only know God as we are in the faith and believing. Only in faith does Christ dwell in our hearts. In the flesh we know nothing. God can say to a person who may have at one time been in Christ and then died in the flesh that he never knew them. He only knows us as we abide in Christ through faith. But if we deny the faith or cast off faith and depart from the faith and have an evil heart of unbelief we cannot in that state of unbelief say that we have seen or known God in that state of darkness. If we die in that state of darkness we die in the flesh and shall reap corruption and all the righteousness which we have done in faith will not be remembered as scripture shows.

So when John whosever sinneth hath not seen him neither known him, he is true and showing that any who say they are in the light and walk in darkness are liars. He reaffirms this line of thinking and showing the clear difference from believers to unbelievers in the next verses. he says

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

John shows here a warning not to let any man deceive you. The deception would be that some might say we cannot do righteousness or we do not need to do righteousness and they are deceiving. They may say those who do unrighteousness are still of God as many of the OSAS groups do. It is as if John is seeing the danger we are in to day where many say they are in salvation and yet live like the devil and commit sin and walk in darkness. Yet they are deceived if they think they shall inherit the kingdom of God ( 1 VCor 6:9,10) and John says they are deceived.

Continued next page part 2

LoveofTruth · May 8, 2018

Doug Melven said:
There is nothing about abiding in Him in John 6:37, you added that.

This says that if you abide in Him you don't sin. It doesn't say if you sin you are no longer abiding in Him.
If you are sinning it means you are not in Him, in fact you never were in Him.
But we know that believers still sin. So how can this verse be true as is?
This verse is referring to our spirit, not our body or soul.
That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
We are born-again by the Spirit of God.
We still sin with our mind and body, not our spirit.

Part 2 continued

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

a very clear statement again and in the context of "let no man deceive you" if a man committeth sin and says he still is of God and knows God and has seen God as he is in such a sin he lies and is deceptive. This is the very thing that the OSAS doctrine seems to teach. that you are still of God in this comitting of sin, and some even say you are simply "acting" like you are of the devil. But John says they are of the devil and not of God as we read on.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

To be born of God is to be renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created us in righteousness and true holiness. In this state of belief Christ abides in us and we in him. John had already spoken about believers to Let that word of God abide in them and if they remain in this and the word in them they will then continue in the Son and in the father. So he reaffirms the same thing here showing that as we abide in Christ we sin not. For his seed, Jesus Christ and His word, remain in us through faith. If we continue in his word and in faith that is.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

John strengthens his argument by showing that there is a difference between the children of God and the children of the devil. The child of God does righteousness and manifest the life of Chris in his mortal body. But the child of the devil does not do righteousness and sinneth as John had said and so he is not of God .

If a believer says I don't need to do righteousness (which is when we believe and Jesus Christ dwells in our heart and God then works in us to make us perfect unto every good work working in us that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ.) then they are deceiving others. If they do not have this work of God in them they are not of God. James talks similar and says show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.

The evidence that we are in him is to walk even as Jesus walked and to walk in the light. But if we say we are in the light of salvation and walk in the darkness of sin and evil, we lie and do not the truth.

So it is not as you interpret that we sin in our flesh and do not sin in our spirit only. Believers can sin in their flesh if they fornicate and they can sin in the flesh if they walk in the flesh. Our power and life and victory come from abiding in Christ and his word and as he abides in us and continues in us. But we must not sin. Paul says he brings his body into subjection lest he be a castaway.

W also read of this verse

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

Imagine what the unbelievers of the world must think if they see a man who says he is a believer and he sins in the flesh and says "Oh I'm ok, my spirit does not sin, only my flesh" then the lost will think they are false and hypocritical espescially when they reprove them of sin.

Remember all sin comes from the heart as Jesus said. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Consider this warning to believers. This shows that it is not right to say our spirit does not sin only our flesh

"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."(1 Cor 6:9,10 KJV)

Doug Melven · May 8, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
'18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight."(1 John 3:18, 19,21,22 KJV)

I wonder why you skipped verse 20?
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

When people do this I think they are doing something sneaky or attempting to deceive me.
None of those verse you showed says that we can lose what God has given us: eternal life.
All of them have a common theme. Believers do this, unbelievers do that.
There is nothing there that says a believer/child of God can become an unbeliever/child of the devil.

LoveofTruth said:
If we continue in his word and in faith that is.

You keep adding this statement to all of these Scriptures despite the fact the Scripture does not even imply it.

LoveofTruth · May 8, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Let's look at the 2 passages you cite.
2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life

How would it be eternal life if it stopped? He promised eternal life.

Eternal life never ends Jesus Christ himself is that eternal life and either he abides in a person or he does not abide. If they abide not in him they are cast forth and withered.

But how we are affected by Jesus Christ and eternal life is the issue. if we hate our brother after we have believed and harden our heart in an evil heart of unbelief we no longer have eternal life abiding in us as 1 John 3:15 shows with other passages.

Jesus Christ is that eternal life that is the issue

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"(1 John 1:1,2 KJV)

"20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."(1 John 5:20 KJV)

but if a person says they are in him or say they are in the light and saved but walk in sin and darkness they lie and they have not seen him neither known him ( as they are in that darkness). John says this all over

"6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"(1 John 1:6 KJV)

"4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."(1 John 2:4 KJV) Jesus Christ is the truth and so he is not in this one here.

"6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."(1 John 2:6 KJV)

"9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now...
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."(1 John 2:9,11 KJV)

is it possible for a believer to hate his brother? Yes. (note, this sin of hatred is in his heart not in the flesh ). So we cannot say we only sin in our flesh and not in our heart or spirit. All sin comes from the heart as Jesus told us that out of the abundance of the heart a man speaks and does things. Jesus said if a man lust after a woman in his heart he has already sinned.

We see the result of hating a brother as John said

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."(1 John 3:15 KJV) Abiding means to remain or dwell or continue.

LoveofTruth · May 8, 2018

Doug Melven said:
I wonder why you skipped verse 20?
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Vs 20 was not relevant in this direct discussion. But I can add it also no problem. It does not mean what you think. vs 19 and 21 clarified the issue of assuring our hearts before him and if they condemn us not. John is saying we must do the will of God and do truth to know we are in him and assure our hearts.

Doug Melven said:
When people do this I think they are doing something sneaky or attempting to deceive me.

No attempt to decieve you.I am pointing out verses that are related directly to what i am speaking of of abiding in Christ or not abiding in him read John 15 again as well as 1 John the entire book.

Doug Melven said:
None of those verse you showed says that we can lose what God has given us: eternal life.

Yes they do 1 John 2:24,25 shows that we must let the word abide in us and IF we do so and the word remains in us then we wil be able to continue in the Son and in the father and have the promise of eternal life. The principle of contraries is true here as well, it makes sense that if we do not let the word abide in us and remain then we swill not be able to continue in the Son and in the father and we will not have the promise of eternal life.

also i show how in 1 john 2 if a man hates his brother and says he is in the light he lies and walks in darkness. i also show in 1 John 3:15 that if a person hateth his brother he does not have eternal life abiding in him *this shows that eternal life does not remain or continue in him.

How can God's love continue on a person who hates his brother? How can God's love continue n a person who loves the world? how can God's love continue in a person who walks after the flesh and sows to the flesh?

and yet believers can do all these things and so if they do they are lost and cut off and abide not and can be cast into the fire

Doug Melven said:
There is nothing there that says a believer/child of God can become an unbeliever/child of the devil.

Yes there is and one quick example is that of Judas in Matthew 10 we see that Jesus called unto him "HIS" twelve disciples, apostles. And he gave all twelve power against unclean spirits to cast them out and to heal and he sent them forth and ordained them and sent all twelve to the LOST sheep. He sent then forth as sheep to the lost sheep. And they all twelve had the Spirit of the Father speaking in them when needed. Judas included in all this.

Then Judas fell by transgression and betrayed that trust he once had and became a devil and fell away. He was lost in the end John 17. Even though he once belonged to the Father John 17:6 and the father gave him and the other eleven to Jesus.

Doug Melven said:
You keep adding this statement to all of these Scriptures despite the fact the Scripture does not even imply it.

Yes the scriptures do imply and say to continue in his word and faith all over and Jesus says this as well

John 8:31
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

Notice that they believed and he said "IF ye continue..."

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

LoveofTruth · May 8, 2018

Doug Melven said:
There is nothing about abiding in Him in John 6:37, you added that.

Jesus said in that section

Jesus also said in John 6

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life," what is that labour we need to do? could it be connected to abiding and remaining and continuing in the faith. We labour to enter into that rest, as Hebrews 4 shows.

"35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."(John 6:3537 KJV)

If men come to him and believe why would Jesus cast them out. He cares for the hungry soul and those who need his rest that he gives and salvation in that rest.As long as they continue to believe in him they have life. But Jesus said in Luke that men can believe and be saved for a while and they fall away.

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. [clearly here if they had believed they would be saved, to believe is to be saved]

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe,[and so they are saved for a while as we saw in the previous verse 13 that to believe is to be saved] and in time of temptation fall away.[they fell from grace , fell away from believing and being saved for a while, fell away from eternal life]"( Luke 8:11-13 KJV)

I say they fell away from eternal life because Jesus said a very similar thing when he showed if men hear and believe they have eternal life

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Doug Melven · May 8, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
it makes sense that if we do not let the word abide in us and remain then we swill not be able to continue in the Son and in the father and we will not have the promise of eternal life.

Maybe from a human perspective.
But the main clause of the New Covenant is
I will be merciful to there unrighteousness and there sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.
Also Hebrews 13:5 says that He will never leave us or forsake us.
Also John 6:37 says that Jesus will in no way cast us out.
This last verse cannot have conditions for if it did Jesus would not have said "in no way".
He would have had to of said, "If you meet my condition"

LoveofTruth · May 8, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Maybe from a human perspective.

I was referring directly to 1 John 2:14,24,25 it says almost exactly what I said, so this is from a heavenly perspective. The human perspective does not see this.

I said

"it makes sense that if we do not let the word abide in us and remain then we will not be able to continue in the Son and in the Father and we will not have the promise of eternal life."(I corrected a few typos)

and the scriptures I was referring to were these

'...and the word of God abideth in you...24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."( 1 John 2;14,24,25 KJV)

Doug Melven said:
Also Hebrews 13:5 says that He will never leave us or forsake us.

He doesn't leave us first, but if we forsake him he will forsake us, if we deny him Jesus said he will deny us. Scripture speaks of this

Joshua 24:20
If ye forsake the Lord, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good."

2 Chronicles 15:2
"And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

Doug Melven said:
Also John 6:37 says that Jesus will in no way cast us out.

Yes those that come to him and believe in him and continue in the faith and who abide in him he will not cast off or cast out. But if they abide not they are cast forth as a branch and withered and cast int the fire. As Jesus said

"6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."(John 15:6 KJV)

Doug Melven said:
This last verse cannot have conditions for if it did Jesus would not have said "in no way".
He would have had to of said, "If you meet my condition"

He did say men must labour for the meat that perisheth not and come to him and believe on him. Believing is not a one time event, it is ongoing daily faith.

Bible2+ · May 9, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #466:

There is nothing in your OP that Judas believed. That has to be assumed.

Note that even though Judas the apostle was chosen/elect/saved/empowered like the other apostles (Luke 6:13-16, Mark 6:7-13, Matthew 19:28), he still subsequently became a devil (John 6:70-71) who would ultimately become unsaved (Mark 14:21), because he wrongly employed his free will to begin to love money more than Jesus Christ (John 12:3-6, Mark 14:3-11; cf. 1 Timothy 6:10, Matthew 6:24).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #467:

It's the 7 year Tribulation that one must endure to the end.

And also now (Hebrews 3:14, Hebrews 3:6).

FreeGrace2 said in post #467:

What does the farmer expect from his branches? Fruit. If they don't produce, they are cut off. This is really about being fired from service, not loss of salvation.

Note that John 15:6. Hebrews 6:4-8, and Hebrews 10:26-29 can refer to loss of salvation.

FreeGrace2 said in post #467:

Bottom line is that Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So long as they endure unto the end (Matthew 24:13).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #478:

The word "fire" is used throughout Scripture to speak of God's discipline during the believer's life on earth and has NO connection with hell or the lake of fire.

Note that the fire of John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, and Hebrews 10:26-29 can be the same fire as Mark 9:46 and Revelation 20:15.

FreeGrace2 said in post #478:

Consider 1 Cor 3:14,15

Note that 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17), if that work is done in a faulty manner, by focusing on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20), and the glorying in human leaders of the Church (1 Corinthians 3:4,21), instead of focusing on Jesus Christ Himself, and the everlasting wisdom of His Word the Holy Bible (1 Corinthians 2:2 to 3:23; 1 Peter 1:23-25). 1 Corinthians 3:15 is not contradicting that if a Christian, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his free will to stop doing any good works, to become utterly lazy without repentance, then he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a,6). He will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24).

FreeGrace2 said in post #478:

What makes you think that anyone IS "fit for the kingdom"?

Note that obedient Christians will be (2 Peter 1:10-11, Matthew 25:21).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #491:

"whoever believes in Him shall not perish". Eternal security.

Note that the translation "whoever believes in Him shall not perish" is a mistranslation of the original Greek, in which the verb is in the subjunctive mood. This means that it is referring to a conditional action. So it should be translated as: "may not perish". Other, related verses show that Christians ultimately retaining their salvation is conditional on their continued belief to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 6:4-8, Colossians 1:23), their continued good works to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30), and their continued repentance to the end from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). And none of these things are assured, because of free will.

The way to do Christian theology is not to base it on what an unqualified verse says to Christians, but on what the entire Bible says to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4). A verse applicable to Christians in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses (also applicable to Christians) elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

FreeGrace2 said in post #491:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

FreeGrace2 said in post #491:

But your assumption that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved is not found in Scripture.

Note that it is (e.g. Hebrews 6:4-8).

FreeGrace2 said in post #491:

If that were true, then Jesus wasn't being honest in Johbn 10:28.

Note that John 10:28 does not contradict Hebrews 6:4-8. For John 10:28 does not say or require that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his free will to jump out of God's hand himself.

Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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