Why would he not be saved?

Sammy-San · May 8, 2018

Southernscotty said:
Everyone in the Old testament is still saved by the grace of Christ crucifixion

Question: "What was the Old Testament way of salvation?"

Answer: How people were saved during the time of the Old Testament is a confusing question to some. We know that, in the New Testament era, salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is the Way (John 14:6). But, before Christ, what was the way?

A common misconception about the Old Testament way of salvation is that Jews were saved by keeping the Law. But we know from Scripture that that is not true. Galatians 3:11 says, “Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’” Some might want to dismiss this passage as only applying to the New Testament, but Paul is quoting Habakkuk 2:4—salvation by faith, apart from the Law was an Old Testament principle. Paul taught that the purpose of the Law was to serve as a “tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (Galatians 3:24). Also, in Romans 3:20 Paul makes the point that keeping the Law did not save either Old or New Testament Jews because “no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.” The Law was never intended to save anyone; the purpose of the Law was to make us “conscious of sin.”

If the Old Testament way of salvation was not keeping the Law, then how were people saved? Fortunately, the answer to that question is easily found in Scripture, so there can be no doubt as to what was the Old Testament way of salvation. In Romans 4 the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point—Genesis 15:6, this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given!

Paul then shows that David was also saved by faith (Romans 4:6-8, quoting Psalm 32:1-2). Paul continues to establish that the Old Testament way of salvation was through faith alone. In Romans 4:23-24 he writes, “The words ‘it was credited to him’ were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.” In other words, righteousness is “credited” or given to those who have faith in God—Abraham, David, and we all share the same way of salvation.

Much of Romans and Galatians addresses the fact that there is only one way of salvation and only one gospel message. Throughout history people have tried to pervert the gospel by adding human works to it, requiring certain things to be done to “earn” salvation. But the Bible’s clear message is that the way of salvation has always been through faith. In the Old Testament, it was faith in the promise that God would send a Savior someday. Those who lived in the time of the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah and believed God’s promise of the coming Servant of the Lord (Isaiah 53). Those who exercised such faith were saved. Today we look back on the life, death and resurrection of the Savior and are saved by faith in Jesus Christ’s atonement for our sins (Romans 10:9-10).

The gospel is not an exclusively New Testament message. The Old Testament contained it as well: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith” (Galatians 3:8-9, quoting Genesis 12:3).

As early as Genesis 3:15, we see the promise of a coming Savior, and throughout the Old Testament there are hundreds of promises that the Messiah would “save His people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21; cf. Isaiah 53:5-6). Job’s faith was in the fact that he knew that his “Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth” (Job 19:25). Clearly, Old Testament saints were aware of the promised Redeemer, and they were saved by faith in that Savior, the same way people are saved today. There is no other way. Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:11-12, quoting Psalm 118:22).

non jews.

RDKirk · May 8, 2018

Southernscotty said:
Everyone in the Old testament is still saved by the grace of Christ crucifixion

Question: "What was the Old Testament way of salvation?"

Answer: How people were saved during the time of the Old Testament is a confusing question to some. We know that, in the New Testament era, salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is the Way (John 14:6). But, before Christ, what was the way?

A common misconception about the Old Testament way of salvation is that Jews were saved by keeping the Law. But we know from Scripture that that is not true. Galatians 3:11 says, “Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’” Some might want to dismiss this passage as only applying to the New Testament, but Paul is quoting Habakkuk 2:4—salvation by faith, apart from the Law was an Old Testament principle. Paul taught that the purpose of the Law was to serve as a “tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (Galatians 3:24). Also, in Romans 3:20 Paul makes the point that keeping the Law did not save either Old or New Testament Jews because “no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.” The Law was never intended to save anyone; the purpose of the Law was to make us “conscious of sin.”

If the Old Testament way of salvation was not keeping the Law, then how were people saved? Fortunately, the answer to that question is easily found in Scripture, so there can be no doubt as to what was the Old Testament way of salvation. In Romans 4 the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point—Genesis 15:6, this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given!

Paul then shows that David was also saved by faith (Romans 4:6-8, quoting Psalm 32:1-2). Paul continues to establish that the Old Testament way of salvation was through faith alone. In Romans 4:23-24 he writes, “The words ‘it was credited to him’ were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.” In other words, righteousness is “credited” or given to those who have faith in God—Abraham, David, and we all share the same way of salvation.

Much of Romans and Galatians addresses the fact that there is only one way of salvation and only one gospel message. Throughout history people have tried to pervert the gospel by adding human works to it, requiring certain things to be done to “earn” salvation. But the Bible’s clear message is that the way of salvation has always been through faith. In the Old Testament, it was faith in the promise that God would send a Savior someday. Those who lived in the time of the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah and believed God’s promise of the coming Servant of the Lord (Isaiah 53). Those who exercised such faith were saved. Today we look back on the life, death and resurrection of the Savior and are saved by faith in Jesus Christ’s atonement for our sins (Romans 10:9-10).

The gospel is not an exclusively New Testament message. The Old Testament contained it as well: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith” (Galatians 3:8-9, quoting Genesis 12:3).

As early as Genesis 3:15, we see the promise of a coming Savior, and throughout the Old Testament there are hundreds of promises that the Messiah would “save His people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21; cf. Isaiah 53:5-6). Job’s faith was in the fact that he knew that his “Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth” (Job 19:25). Clearly, Old Testament saints were aware of the promised Redeemer, and they were saved by faith in that Savior, the same way people are saved today. There is no other way. Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:11-12, quoting Psalm 118:22).

You didn't answer Superhero Sam's question about the ancient Japanese, who don't know of a promised redeemer or the Greek monotheists who Paul said were worshiping the true God, but also didn't know of the promised redeemer.

RDKirk · May 8, 2018

Superhero Sam said:
How would a person in ancient japan know about the cross?

See my post #39

Sammy-San · May 8, 2018

RDKirk said:
There are many hundreds of thousands, millions, of people in history who have died without any chance of having heard the gospel.

So when Paul speaks of them being "without excuse," the question is: Excuse from what?

Remember, as we know from Acts 17 Paul is well aware of Greek monotheism--even to the point of being able to quote one of the Greek monotheists. Their doctrine of the Unknown God was based on their observation of the perfect predictability of the heavens, which they theorized was only possible if there were a single Creator God who fully controlled His creation. However, because this would be a God of perfect virtue (as shown by the perfect motion of the heavens), He could not be directly known by imperfect man--He is not "unknown" because they don't have a name for Him, but because He can't be known the way they know of men and they refused to "make up stuff" about Him as others made up about their pagan gods.

Notice--this was precisely Job's position. Job knew God through nature (as demonstrated by the discussion of God's creation: Constellations, wonders of the sea and land). But Job also knew that he could not touch God.

So with Psalm 19 and with knowledge of the Greek monotheism, Paul could assert that even without the gospel, men should at least reach the state of the Greek monotheists, a knowledge that there is a virtuous single God.

Paul says that it's the men who reject that knowledge who are without excuse. Those who reject what can be known about God in creation are without excuse.

So the question is whether those--like Job and the Greek monotheists--who did acknowledge as much of God as they could see in nature do have an excuse.

What about the poor souls deceived by Islam?

http://blog.adw.org/2015/06/why-is-the-road-to-destruction-wide/

1. We have hard hearts and stubborn wills – While some of what this includes is specified more below, here is a good place to begin. God, speaking to us through Isaiah the Prophet, says, I know that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your forehead is bronze (Is 48:4). He is talking about us!

2. We are obtuse in our desires – In other words, if something is forbidden we seem to want it all the more. St Paul laconically observes, When the commandment came, sin sprang to life (Rom 7:9). If something is harmful we want it in abundance, but if it is helpful we are often averse to it. We like our sweets and our salty snacks, but vegetables rot in the refrigerator. In the desert the people of Israel longed for melons, leeks, onions, and the fleshpots they enjoyed in Egypt. Never mind that they were slaves then. But when it came to the Bread from Heaven, the Holy Manna, they said, We are disgusted with this wretched manna (Num 21:5). We are obtuse, that is, we are turned outward toward sin instead of inward toward God in a Holy embrace. Jesus sadly remarked that judgment would go poorly for many because The light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed (Jn 3:19).

They dont rebel towards the Lord like atheists do, they know the heavens declare his glory. They know there is a single Creator God who fully controlled His creation.

RDKirk · May 8, 2018

Superhero Sam said:
What about the poor souls deceived by Islam?

http://blog.adw.org/2015/06/why-is-the-road-to-destruction-wide/

They dont rebel towards the Lord like atheists do, they know the heavens declare his glory. They know there is a single Creator God who fully controlled His creation.

For the people I have met, whether beginning as Muslims or atheists, they testify of having always knowing that what they believed was incomplete and they felt there was something more out there, something they had yet to find.

JacksBratt · May 8, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Yes, when and as Yahweh(God) grants someone willing to see they may see the difference;
yet, those who are blind do not see ; i.e. it is not "obvious to anyone" in that category regardless if they have known us or meet us they still cannot see there is something different about us. Contrary to that, those who are blind see something different that is contrary to reality - as if the unsaved are saved, and as if the saved are unsaved. I think this happens a lot every day everywhere on earth among most people.

On the positive note, followers of Jesus in China who have to 'hide' from authorities in order not to be arrested or put to death, who cannot even speak openly nor sing worship songs out loud in their own domicile (if their neighbor or a passerby hears them they can be reported and everyone arrested with no other 'evidence') ,
still "without a word" friends, family, co-workers and neighbors who SEE THEIR LIVES which are completely different , completely changed in Christ, are sometimes converted and immersed in Jesus Name to become part of His Body .... and then THEIR OWN LIVES after being immersed / converted/ are likewise so totally changed that others in their own family or co-workers SEE THE DIFFERENCE, and likewise may be converted.
This almost never is reported in the USA or in Europe that I know of.

I could be wrong but I believe others can see the difference in us... This is why we suffer prosecution.

What I believe that they are blind to is the reason we believe, our faith, our hope, our relationship with Christ... but we are visibly different.

JacksBratt · May 8, 2018

Anthony the Great said:
Orthodoxy and Catholicism which makes up about 1,6 billion of the ca 2,4 billion Christians worldwide.
Again out of the rest 800 millions protestants there is NOT any consensus about OSAS.

Well that's the numbers, like then or don't like them...

As for born again everyone believes that so it's a false caricature to say we don't. We're born again as we're baptised and confess Christ as Lord and savior. Our rejection of OSAS is based on our human weakness and unwillingness to serve and obey Christ NOT his power to save us.

We don't take our own obedience for granted we're afraid of committing apostasy. Christ has all the power. This concern for our own weakness is based on our firm believe in the human free will.
We have free will our entire life which is two edged sword I guess.

We reject OSAS on the same basis that we reject Calvinism and it's predestination.

So, due to the fact that it is the teaching of the RCC... which has large numbers... does not mean:

1/ that it's right
2/ that all RC's believe it

I really don't know how you can say that you are saved at your death...

The moment we accept Christ... we are new, our body accepts the Holy Spirit, we think different, have different values, goals and a new attitude... we are born from death into the eternal family of Christ.. we are in this world but no longer of this world.. just waiting to strive on until we go home... all the while... saved.

GraceBro · May 8, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
It's a question that many people have, and has been brought up on this forum before--if someone doesn't believe in Christ, if they've never heard of Him, or never heard a convincing argument for Him, or for whatever reason don't believe, are they still capable of being saved?

I think the answer lies in one of the most commonly quoted verses of the Bible:

God is love.

If God is love, then any act of love is an act of God. If being closely connected with God is how we are saved, then anyone who sincerely tries to follow any philosophy of love would be saved. "The only way to the Father is through [Christ]"--but how does Christ manifest in people's lives? If a Buddhist who lives a good life on the Eightfold Path, takes care of his elderly mother, and gives to the poor has seen missionaries come through his village, but doesn't see a good reason to leave his good life with Buddha, why would he not be saved? If a man believes there's no God at all, and chooses to live his life in accordance with chivalry & honor, treating the women in his life well & putting constant effort into a virtuous life, why would he not be saved?

Or, think of it another way:

There's a man who constantly lives his life with generosity, dignity, and gratitude. He works hard every day in a non-profit organization to free victims of sex trafficking, for a low salary but high morals. He spends as much time as he can with his wife & kids, giving time, talent, and treasure to give his kids a great future and his wife a great husband. He does martial arts classes, to protect his children or wife in case of an attacker of any kind, and he runs an online campaign to combat inappropriate contentography. He does not believe in a God.

There's another man who is frequently lazy, not doing much around the house, content to let his wife do the work while he watches TV. He rarely donates any of his abundant money or time to anything, and often yells at his kids when they want to do something with him. He's not real worried about any of the evils in the world, because he doesn't feel like doing anything about it. He is a Christian, and goes to Church every Sunday.

Which man is saved?

Yes, God is love. However, you have to define love. The Bible says, "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends (1 Corinthians 13:4)." We must ask ourselves, "Are we always acting in accordance with this passage?" If we are honest, the answer is, "No." This is a description of God's love. We certainly can demonstrate these fruits of the Spirit, but we don't do it all the time. Outward behavior may be an indicator of a saving faith in Jesus Christ but is not necessarily definitive proof of it. Therefore, just because a Buddhist or other unbeliever passes our eye test for what we believe are acts of love doesn't mean they are "connected" to God. Besides, Jesus said, "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same (Matthew 5:46-47)?" He acknowledged that even unbelievers can behave in ways deemed to be moral and loving to those they love, but that isn't proof of salvation or a requirement of it. You are only saved by being born again of the Spirit of God through faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:3). There are no exceptions and no alternatives (John 14:6, Acts 4:12).

As for your example regarding the man who "does not believe in God," you have your answer right there. Again, behavior means nothing. If he hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as His savior, he is lost and headed for eternal damnation. Furthermore, if we want to measure a person's "good" behavior up against what God requires, we must use His criteria. Jesus said, "You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48)." Nobody will go before the Lord and be able to enter His Kingdom based on their behavior, no matter how well they live their life with "generosity, dignity, and gratitude." If they are not perfect, they aren't getting in. And even if they were perfect, they still wouldn't get in because the problem between man and God is not our ability to behave perfectly. The problem is that prior to faith in Jesus Christ, we are spiritually dead in our sins and in need of the life of God. That is only found through the indwelling Holy Spirit received the moment a person accepts Jesus and is born again.

When it comes to the man who is "frequently lazy," but is a Christian. Again, you have your answer right there. It is his faith in Jesus Christ that saves him, not his behavior. Now, if you are truly concerned about his laziness, you may want to ask him, "What is his understanding of the Gospel?" You may find out he doesn't know it or he may not understand it. If he doesn't know it, he may not be saved at all despite his weekly church attendance. If he doesn't understand it, he may still be saved but is immature in his relationship with Jesus Christ. He is, in effect, a baby in Christ. But, again, while true faith in Jesus Christ should affect your behavior, your behavior is not proof that you are saved. Furthermore, you must know what the Gospel is yourself so as to be able to discern if what someone believes is true.

Salvation is the restoration of the life of God through faith in Jesus Christ. That one act of faith is the only behavior that counts.

Grace and Peace

Sammy-San · May 8, 2018

RDKirk said:
For the people I have met, whether beginning as Muslims or atheists, they testify of having always knowing that what they believed was incomplete and they felt there was something more out there, something they had yet to find.

Apart from the fact the bible is true and koran is not (which is a urantee from analzain it) what makes muslims at fault for not questionin violent stories of their faith when bible has this?Numbers 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

anna ~ grace · May 8, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
Let me ask you & everyone who thinks similar answers this question very directly:
No matter how a person lives, if they've never heard of Jesus, are they guaranteed to go to Hell?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Is the official teaching of the Catholic Church (not the potential private opinion of anyone within the Church, but what the Church has always taught) that men are saved by Christ alone, but that at death God may indeed supply the graces needed for salvation through Christ if that soul, through invincible ignorance (no natural way to hear of or turn to Christ) did not convert before that final moment, does their best to obey their conscience, follow natural law, and do their best with what they know?

Wordkeeper · May 9, 2018

Albion said:
That seems harsh at first glance, but I think you are on the right track. Before we conclude that hell is merely non-fulfillment or something like that, we need to consider that it is described constantly in Scripture as a place of loss, suffering, etc. In a way, that means "missing out", but it is not just that.

There's a story doing the rounds in the yeshivot about the castaway who landed on an island where the sand was made up of diamonds. He filled his lifeboat with it until a native told him pork fat was the precious commodity there. So he emptied the boat and got into the pork fat business and became very rich. He filled the boat with pork fat and rowed to the next island where he managed to get to the mainland using a cargo boat.

When he reached home and told his wife the story she asked him if he had brought some diamonds back. He replied that he had brought pork fat, which was even better. Of course he was told off. He found some minute diamonds in the toe of his shoe and they managed to live out their days on the sale of that.

I suppose regret is like Hell.

Moral of the story: Don't end up regretting.

It can be as hurtful as all the instruments found in the worst torture chamber.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · May 9, 2018

JacksBratt said:
So, due to the fact that it is the teaching of the RCC... which has large numbers... does not mean:

1/ that it's right
2/ that all RC's believe it

You brought up numbers as you falsely stated that the majority of Christians believes as you do while you actually make out a tiny fraction of Christendom. I called you out on your dishonest used of the term "many" that's it.

No one believed in OSAS for the first 1500 years of the Christian history and that should be a thought to process for anyone who does adhere to this new teaching.

Wordkeeper · May 9, 2018

RDKirk said:
See my post #39

RDKirk said:
There are many hundreds of thousands, millions, of people in history who have died without any chance of having heard the gospel.

So when Paul speaks of them being "without excuse," the question is: Excuse from what?

Remember, as we know from Acts 17 Paul is well aware of Greek monotheism--even to the point of being able to quote one of the Greek monotheists. Their doctrine of the Unknown God was based on their observation of the perfect predictability of the heavens, which they theorized was only possible if there were a single Creator God who fully controlled His creation. However, because this would be a God of perfect virtue (as shown by the perfect motion of the heavens), He could not be directly known by imperfect man--He is not "unknown" because they don't have a name for Him, but because He can't be known the way they know of men and they refused to "make up stuff" about Him as others made up about their pagan gods.

Notice--this was precisely Job's position. Job knew God through nature (as demonstrated by the discussion of God's creation: Constellations, wonders of the sea and land). But Job also knew that he could not touch God.

So with Psalm 19 and with knowledge of the Greek monotheism, Paul could assert that even without the gospel, men should at least reach the state of the Greek monotheists, a knowledge that there is a virtuous single God.

Paul says that it's the men who reject that knowledge who are without excuse. Those who reject what can be known about God in creation are without excuse.

So the question is whether those--like Job and the Greek monotheists--who did acknowledge as much of God as they could see in nature do have an excuse.

More than the order in the heavens, Paul said that God presented a situation to every human, hoping they would seek him out.

Acts 17
“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

This situation was the fact that people had to do worldly acts in order to survive, when they possessed a sense which told them this was wrong. Those who looked for God proclaimed they were alienated by the scenario, and set out to search for another environment, repented, set their mind to a new view, and God was happy to be called their God and had indeed prepared a new situation for them to inhabit.

Hebrews 11
14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Israel lived in this alien environment in Canaan. To accentuate how they were unsuited for this world, God caused Joseph to have a dream, setting of a chain of events causing Israel to experience an extreme version of the world, in Egypt. When Israel called out to God for delivery, God gave them to Christ, who never turns any who seek an alternative to the world away. They drank from Christ, but not all believed in God's alternative, and God said they couldn't enter His rest, couldn't be fulfilled.

It doesn't require Scripture to be available to reject the world and desire baptism, exposure to God's alternative. All it requires is to hate the darkness. Some loved the darkness, preferring the wide gate, remaining in Egypt.

chilehed · May 9, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
It's a question that many people have, and has been brought up on this forum before--if someone doesn't believe in Christ, if they've never heard of Him, or never heard a convincing argument for Him, or for whatever reason don't believe, are they still capable of being saved?

God's creation is part of his revelation of himself.

Scripture says that everyone has some idea of God. It's undeniable that many non-Christians are seeking God - they may have false ideas about Him but they're seeking Him nonetheless, and NO ONE can seek God except on God's initiative. The fact that they're seeking God, however imperfectly, shows that He is working in their lives.

Romans 1:18-21 says "The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened."

So here scripture explicitly says that one can know God by natural revelation, right? Someone who does evil can’t legitimately claim that he never knew about God, because God made sure through creation that everyone knows about him. The passage doesn’t say that they’re wicked because they don’t know God, what it says is that they’re wicked because they know God well enough and they reject him anyway!

A Protestant might say that that level of knowledge is not salvific, that you can’t be saved if that’s the limit of your knowledge of God. But there are two problems with that viewpoint. First, that would mean that people are lost because God requires them to know what they cannot know, and they cannot know it because God didn’t allow them to know it. That would violate God’s perfect justice. Second, it would mean that one can only be saved through the attainment of information which is hidden to all but a select few, which is at the core of the gnostic heresies.

If one has to have heard of Jesus in order to be saved, then never having had the opportunity to hear of him is a really good excuse for never having heard of him. But the bible specifically says that even these people have no excuse for rejecting God, because they did know about him and they rejected him anyway. What gets you into hell is rejecting God. If you don’t know about Jesus then you can’t very well be culpable for rejecting him, because you can only reject what you know about. God holds us accountable only for what we know, and not for what we cannot know.

And so the Church teaches that even these people may be saved (not that they will be saved, but only that they maybe saved) through the merits of Christ, by means of which we do not know.

I like the way C. S. Lewis said it in Chapter 15 of The Last Battle. In it, Emeth tells of his meeting with Aslan:

Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honor) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, "Son, thou art welcome." But I said, "Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash." He answered, "Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me." Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said "Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one"" The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, "It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites - I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For he and I are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?" I said "Lord, thou knowest how much I understand." But I said also (for the truth constrained me), "Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days." "Beloved," said the Glorious One, "unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek."

Anyone who is saved, is saved through Christ

JacksBratt · May 9, 2018

Superhero Sam said:
Apart from the fact the bible is true and koran is not (which is a urantee from analzain it) what makes muslims at fault for not questionin violent stories of their faith when bible has this?Numbers 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

In the Bible, this killing is for an ultimate agenda of God preserving the people of Israel and keeping the bloodline and DNA pure so that the savior can come.

If you do some research into the "genocide" of the Bible, you will see that it was not killing because they were not converting... This was done due to a remnant of the "all flesh was corrupted"... and the "we were like grasshoppers to them" and all the other issues that were part of Satan's plan to derail the human genome.

Colter · May 9, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
It's a question that many people have, and has been brought up on this forum before--if someone doesn't believe in Christ, if they've never heard of Him, or never heard a convincing argument for Him, or for whatever reason don't believe, are they still capable of being saved?

I think the answer lies in one of the most commonly quoted verses of the Bible:

God is love.

If God is love, then any act of love is an act of God. If being closely connected with God is how we are saved, then anyone who sincerely tries to follow any philosophy of love would be saved. "The only way to the Father is through [Christ]"--but how does Christ manifest in people's lives? If a Buddhist who lives a good life on the Eightfold Path, takes care of his elderly mother, and gives to the poor has seen missionaries come through his village, but doesn't see a good reason to leave his good life with Buddha, why would he not be saved? If a man believes there's no God at all, and chooses to live his life in accordance with chivalry & honor, treating the women in his life well & putting constant effort into a virtuous life, why would he not be saved?

Or, think of it another way:

There's a man who constantly lives his life with generosity, dignity, and gratitude. He works hard every day in a non-profit organization to free victims of sex trafficking, for a low salary but high morals. He spends as much time as he can with his wife & kids, giving time, talent, and treasure to give his kids a great future and his wife a great husband. He does martial arts classes, to protect his children or wife in case of an attacker of any kind, and he runs an online campaign to combat inappropriate contentography. He does not believe in a God.

There's another man who is frequently lazy, not doing much around the house, content to let his wife do the work while he watches TV. He rarely donates any of his abundant money or time to anything, and often yells at his kids when they want to do something with him. He's not real worried about any of the evils in the world, because he doesn't feel like doing anything about it. He is a Christian, and goes to Church every Sunday.

Which man is saved?

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: As many people have pointed out, it sounds like I'm essentially promoting pelagianism, that is, following a heresy that states that salvation is separate from God, something that we can attain on our own. This was not the intent of this post.

The main idea behind posting this was the fact that many people go their whole lives without ever hearing a compelling argument to believe in Christ, or perhaps, they never hear anything about Christ. Evangelists may hand out papers that say "Believe in Jesus or you can't be saved!", but see it as yet another religion that says that heaven is only for believers of our brand of God.

My intent was not to say that we only need good works for eternal salvation; these are a necessary part of salvation, but it's not something we can do on our own, and we are still entirely dependent on God. I just find it difficult to believe that God would condemn anyone to Hell who never had a chance to hear about Jesus, or that a man who entirely believes in Buddhism, submitting himself to the good god he believes in, and lives a good life because of it, would be standing at judgement for Jesus to say "Surprise! Your god wasn't me, so you're going to hell!" That sounds like a sick and twisted god that I do not want to be around.

We are all created by God, in his image & likeness. Think of us as cars, with a GPS built in, always guiding us, whether we listen to it or not. This GPS would be the Holy Spirit, guiding us along a Godly life, and we have free will to follow its directions, or ignore it. Being made in His likeness, we naturally have an inclination towards goodness, truth, and beauty. Giving the examples of the two men, the non-believer who does well vs. the Christian who does poorly, was meant to illustrate that there are non-believers among us who follow Christ better than most of us, and although I don't have the authority to say whether or not anyone's saved (thank you, Anthony the Great, for reminding me of this; may God remove my pride that makes me think I know more than I do), it's good to keep in mind that there are people who submit themselves to Christian principles of love, mercy, and honor, without actually knowing that they know Christ.

Below is a sample from the Catechism that discusses salvation, and an article that goes into more detail than I have about the possible salvation of non-believers.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1949 Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him:

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (1 Phil 2:12-13.)

Can Non-Christians Be Saved? | Catholic Answers

In the Original Gospel of Jesus, The Father, faith in him and doing his will, is how one was/is saved. We all go through the Son to get to the Father, weather we realize it in this life or not after this life. But after Jesus left things changed, Christianity adopted the “chosen people” arrogance of those who rejected Jesus.

But you are right, God is Love, he responds to the faintest flicker of faith.

thecolorsblend · May 9, 2018

JacksBratt said:
So, due to the fact that it is the teaching of the RCC... which has large numbers... does not mean:

1/ that it's right
2/ that all RC's believe it

With regard to #2, a Catholic who rejects the Church’s teachings is in need of repentance and a trip to Confession. The Church stakes membership in good standing to obedience so while Catholics have latitude to disagree with each other about some things, they are obligated to agree with the Church on the issues she has infallibly defined.

thecolorsblend · May 9, 2018

Gracia Singh said:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Is the official teaching of the Catholic Church (not the potential private opinion of anyone within the Church, but what the Church has always taught) that men are saved by Christ alone, but that at death God may indeed supply the graces needed for salvation through Christ if that soul, through invincible ignorance (no natural way to hear of or turn to Christ) did not convert before that final moment, does their best to obey their conscience, follow natural law, and do their best with what they know?

More or less, yeah. Someone may or may not have been Catholic in life but if they go to Heaven they will most assuredly be Catholic in the afterlife.

And if such a thing is possible, Our Lord is still the savior. Nothing changes as far as that’s concerned.

Mountainmanbob · May 9, 2018

Tree of Life said:
The Bible teaches that people are saved by Jesus Christ and that this salvation becomes apparent and manifest in people who place their faith in Jesus Christ.

The above -- period double. .

Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone

M-Bob

Wordkeeper · May 9, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
With regard to #2, a Catholic who rejects the Church’s teachings is in need of repentance and a trip to Confession. The Church stakes membership in good standing to obedience so while Catholics have latitude to disagree with each other about some things, they are obligated to agree with the Church on the issues she has infallibly defined.

Pretty impoverished teaching if they can't identify visiting Lourdes with serving self/mammon/the world.

Why would he not be saved?

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