Irrevocable salvation based on personal holiness given by Christ.

I will begin this discussion by copying and pasting something from the other thread with a similar subject in this section that I feel was never answered (a bunch of scriptural evidence that God requires righteousness of us and also provides for us the righteousness that He requires through the Cross):

Romans 3:9 is interpreted by 1 Corinthians 10:32. Romans 3:10-18, and specifically verse 12, is what the law says about those who are under it, v.19. Romans 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law but under grace. Romans 3:23, We all come short of God's glory in that we have sinned, not necessarily in that we do sin. Saints are not sinners, contrary to the secular song, "I'm a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], I'm a lover." That song is worldly, see James 4:4. 1 John 3:9, plus if you compare 1 John 2:17 to 1 John 3:6, TEACHES PRACTICAL DELIVERANCE, FREEDOM, AND VICTORY OVER SIN; OTHERWISE THERE WOULD BE NO DELIVERED DRUG ADDICTS. It is in the practical sense; not just in one aspect of our being, that we cannot sin if we are born of God. This may be hyperbole; exaggeration to make a point, that there will be a radical change in behaviour for those who are born again. Therefore the Bible teaches that those who are redeemed are NOT SINNERS ANY MORE.


We are THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST. 2 Corinthians 5:21. Not sinners.


Ezekiel 36:25-26 says, Then will I sprinkle clean water on you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

This is speaking of the new birth, agree or disagree?

Now verse 27 speaks of the result of what I think we would both have to agree is the new birth: And I will put my spirit within you (the new birth), and CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (the result of the new birth).

Therefore GOD CAUSES US TO WALK IN HIS STATUTES AND JUDGMENTS AS THE RESULT OF THE NEW BIRTH. It is as plain as day. The only reason why someone might reject this testimony that I can think of, might be what is spoken of in Hebrews 3:12-15, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, and/or 1 John 4:5-6.

In 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, it speaks of the fact that we have weapons of warfare by which we can demolish arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. So I am going to pray that the Holy Spirit convinces you of the truth, as you are taking an argument that you have derived from scripture (i.e. THERE ARE COMMANDMENTS and therefore the new birth does not produce obedience to them) in an attempt to nullify the truth of a particular scripture, above quoted (Ezekiel 36:25-27).


You CAN walk in total victory over sin. If you want it, memorize 1 Corinthians 10:13, which says YOU ARE ABLE to deal with temptation victoriously. Philippians 4:13, which says you CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHICH STRENGTHENETH YOU. Ephesians 3:16, which teaches that YOU ARE STRENGTHENED WITH MIGHT BY HIS SPIRIT IN THE INNER MAN. And Colossians 1:11, which says you ARE STRENGTHENED WITH ALL MIGHT ACCORDING TO HIS GLORIOUS POWER, UNTO ALL PATIENCE AND LONGSUFFERING WITH JOYFULNESS. The third time it shall do double damage; and I consider that the third and fourth verses quoted are practically one. Again I say, you CAN walk in TOTAL victory over sin; based on the verses above.


Now unto him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to PRESENT YOU FAULTLESS before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 1:24

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and THERE IS NONE OCCASION OF STUMBLING IN HIM. 1 John 2:10.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, YE SHALL NEVER FALL: 2 Peter 1:10.


But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another; and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN. 1 John 1:7.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (from sin--Matthew 1:21) hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God even our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, THAT HE MIGHT REDEEM US FROM ALL INIQUITY and PURIFY UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:11-14.

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY. Matthew 7:23.


1 John 1:7 and Titus 2:14 mean that we are forgiven of all past sin and that all practical sin in the present and future is dealt with so that our primary behaviour is that we do not commit sin.

Here's a little more:

Ezekiel 36:25-26 says, Then will I sprinkle clean water on you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

This is speaking of the new birth, agree or disagree?

Now verse 27 speaks of the result of what I think we would both have to agree is the new birth: And I will put my spirit within you (the new birth), and CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (the result of the new birth).

Therefore GOD CAUSES US TO WALK IN HIS STATUTES AND JUDGMENTS AS THE RESULT OF THE NEW BIRTH. It is as plain as day. The only reason why someone might reject this testimony that I can think of, might be what is spoken of in Hebrews 3:12-15, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, and/or 1 John 4:5-6.

In 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, it speaks of the fact that we have weapons of warfare by which we can demolish arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. So I am going to pray that the Holy Spirit convinces you of the truth, as you are taking an argument that you have derived from scripture (i.e. THERE ARE COMMANDMENTS and therefore the new birth does not produce obedience to them) in an attempt to nullify the truth of a particular scripture, above quoted (Ezekiel 36:25-27).


I contend that a living and saving faith will produce a change in behaviour. By faith, we receive the love of God, shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:1-5). Real love is never in word only, but always in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18). Faith without works is dead; it cannot save. This is not to say that a deathbed conversion with no works following because of death will not save. But a living and saving faith will produce good works if given the opportunity. If the opportunity presents itself and the person disobeys, and does not do the foreordained work, that is the sign of a dead, unsalvational faith, that is not of the heart but only a mental assent to the doctrines of the faith. The person knows the Bible and believes that he believes and is going to heaven, but because the faith is not unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), a confession of Jesus as Lord would not be a true confession and therefore unsalvational, as to confess is to agree with God; so to mouth the words "Jesus is Lord," if He is not really your Lord (see Luke 6:46) is not a true confession: therefore a living and saving faith is UNTO (practical--1 John 3:7) RIGHTEOUSNESS.


The fact that you "don't believe my claim" indicates that you don't understand the hermeneutical principle found in 1 Corinthians 2:13 kjv. Romans 3:9 is indeed interpreted by 1 Corinthians 10:32, as topically it is the same context.

As there are two types of contexts for scripture, immediate and topical. For example, the immediate context of 2 Corinthians 9:6 is financial seeds: however it can be related topically to spiritual seeds by comparing to Luke 8:11, as the principle of 2 Corinthians 9:6 applies not only to monetary giving but also to the seed of the word of God: if I sow the word of God sparingly I will also reap salvation of souls sparingly; but if I sow more bountifully I will also reap more bountifully.


For the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12.

I find that those people who want to iive sinful lifestyles gravitate toward and hold onto passages that would seem to tell them that they can live that way and still be saved (see Jude 1:4 NIV and 2 Peter 3:16); while those who have actual good consciences and desire to live holy before God gravitate towards passages that serve as promises by which we can become partakers of the divine nature and also escape the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:3-4).


If a person grieves the Holy Spirit, they are in danger of losing the salvation that they seem to and think they have, see Hebrews 3:12-15, Luke 8:18. Sin is deceitful, and it is possible to depart from the living God because of an evil heart of unbelief. I unequivocably reject the idea that someone can depart from the living God and still be saved.

Now we know that the unregenerated heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). But that God is able to give you a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27), that is by definition an honest and good heart (Luke 8:15).

Therefore, if someone seems to be a Christian, and departs from the faith because of an evil heart of unbelief, it can only be because they were merely giving lip service to following Christ and yet did not have a regenerated heart.


Seals can be broken. It's not easy for the seal of the Spirit to be broken if it is even possible; but in the natural it's been done before. So I would never presume that I can live a sinful lifestyle and still be saved because of Ephesians 1:13-14; because Romans 11:20-22 and Hebrews 11:29 teach us that highminded confidence is actually presumption, not faith. We are to be confident in our faith (Philippians 1:6), but let us be certain that what we have is faith and not presumption. Try to go through the Red Sea on faith and you will pass through to the other side if your faith is genuine, living, and saving; but if you assay to go through because someone else did or because you are relying on a promise that doesn't apply to you, that is presumption and you will be drowned.


The eternal torment spoken of in Revelation 14:7-11 cannot be referring to the lake of fire because it is in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb, if anyone will actually read the passage. It cannot be the lake of fire because Jesus is there. We will see all of our loved ones in heaven who took the mark but we will not even be aware that they are in torments; because they never received the Lord and therefore their perception of His presence will be different than ours. Although it does say that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in the furnace of fire so I would say that there are many who will opt out of staying in His presence on their day of judgment and we will not see them in heaven lest we perceive their suffering. It is also possible that God in His Omnipotence will hide it from our eyes and ears, the fact that they will be suffering.


In Matthew 5:48, in order to be consistent in translating perfect as "mature", it would have to be translated thus: Be ye therefore mature, even as your Father which is in heaven is mature.

But our Father in heaven is not mature, He is perfect! The word "mature" has in its connotation that there was a time when immaturity was the rule: someone who is truly mature was at one time immature and grew into maturity through the process of growing up. And this cannot be referring to our heavenly Father, now, can it?

Therefore we must not change this scripture to make it fit what we want to believe but take it as it is given to us in the King James: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is impossible apart from the work of Christ. But the Bible clearly states in Hebrews 10:14 kjv (and a few others): For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. This also being evidenced by a comparison of 1 John 3:6 to 1 John 2:17. And he that doeth righteousness is righteous, EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. 1 John 3:7.


Also, practical righteousness is the free gift of God; as can be ascertained from Romans 5:15-19.


But now being MADE FREE FROM SIN, and become servants to God, ye have YOUR FRUIT UNTO HOLINESS, AND THE END EVERLASTING LIFE. Romans 6:22

Yes indeed. And righteousness is a free gift (Romans 5:15-17), always practical (Matthew 5:6, 1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19).

Whosoever doeth the will of God ABIDETH FOR EVER. 1 John 2:17. Whosoever abideth in him SINNETH NOT. 1 John 3:6.