Hostility between LDS and mainstream Christians

BigDaddy4 said:

Interesting. An lds arguing with their own scripture not being true.

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No member of the LDS church was arguing with the LDS scripture. As I stated we are all begotten spirit children of the Father. Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God in the flesh.

Phoebe Ann said:

It was 100% true.




This is an accurate LDS teaching.

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And, as I pointed out, it is also an accurate teaching of the Bible.

mmksparbud said:

We are all children of the Most High-----it is just that Jesus is the only Son of God--period. the rest are ADOPTED! As in not natural children, only the unnatural may be adopted the natural child has no need of adoption and you people will not see the plainly written word of God on the subject.
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Rom_8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom_8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom_9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph_1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Jesus--being the Son of God--is so by inheritance--we have to be adopted in order to inheret-His is by right of being the only Son of God..

There is no such thing as spirit children--God created Adam and Eve and breathed His life giving breath into them -- the very same breath that He gave to every single living thing on the planet and throughout the universe---Jesus is the creator of everything and He created all the angels including Lucifer, there is no such thing as "intelligences"--God created our brains which leaped into action on that first spark of breath---that is why the Jews do nothing to spark anything on the Sabbath. Anything that sparks is considered creating and they will not do it--not turn on a light, nor even use an elevator on the Sabbath, they will walk up 5 flights of stairs rather than use an elevator.
To me, it says do no work and walking up 5 flights of stairs is a lot more work, but they see it as the spark of life-creating--and that God ceased creating on the Sabbath and so should we. Again, JS had no idea of the Jewish way of thinking and made up a bunch of stuff that is not accurate in any way shape or form.
At the start of this world----God made the earth, it was empty and void---then He filled it--fattened it in Jewish thought which he took as meaning that He didn't make anything but only filled it. That is not what scripture says----
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

That has been given to you before, but you ignore it also. God made the earth from which Adam and Eve were created.

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Have you heard the parable of the prodigal son? All of us were lost as we became subject to sin and vanity:

(New Testament | Luke 15:17 - 22)

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

Verse 22 is the adoption back into God our Father's household. We are all lost and no longer worthy to be called God's sons and daughters. However because of the atonement of Jesus Christ we can return to our Father:
(New Testament | Romans 3:23)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(New Testament | Romans 6:9 - 18)

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

BigDaddy4 said:

When you're done rolling your eyes, read post 464 again. Phoebe Ann posted:

And the response was...

The "beliefs" have no supporting evidence. Why should it be believed?

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Are you saying that God is not a Father of spirits?:
(New Testament | Hebrews 12:9)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

He is the way said:

all begotten spirit children of the Father. Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God in the flesh.

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is the Father begotten? Since He is the same as the Son.

He is the way said:

Have you heard the parable of the prodigal son? All of us were lost as we became subject to sin and vanity:

(New Testament | Luke 15:17 - 22)

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

Verse 22 is the adoption back into God our Father's household. We are all lost and no longer worthy to be called God's sons and daughters. However because of the atonement of Jesus Christ we can return to our Father:
(New Testament | Romans 3:23)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(New Testament | Romans 6:9 - 18)

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

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We are adopted because we ae not his natural children--lost or not, a true child is a true child. A child ca be lost for over 50 years, when he comes home, he is still the natural child. Nothing can change that. We are not His natural children, lost or not, when we come to Him, we are then adopted and without that adoption, you are no child of His.

Eloy Craft said:

is the Father begotten? Since He is the same as the Son.

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Good question. Why don't you ask Him? Joseph Smith said He was once a man like Jesus was. The Bible states:
(New Testament | 1 John 3:2)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Does this mean we will be like Jesus Christ when we are resurrected and made pure through the atonement? Isn't Jesus Christ like the Father?:

(New Testament | John 14:9)

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Truth is we don't much about this. Most people don't know much about what heaven is like. Do you know what heaven is like?

mmksparbud said:

We are adopted because we ae not his natural children--lost or not, a true child is a true child. A child ca be lost for over 50 years, when he comes home, he is still the natural child. Nothing can change that. We are not His natural children, lost or not, when we come to Him, we are then adopted and without that adoption, you are no child of His.

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So how is God the Father of spirits?:
(New Testament | Hebrews 12:6 - 10)

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

He is the way said:

So how is God the Father of spirits?:
(New Testament | Hebrews 12:6 - 10)

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

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Angels
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Eloy Craft said:

is the Father begotten? Since He is the same as the Son.

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Remember: there's no LDS doctrinal statements on the Father's past. The two speculative quotes are just that: speculation.

As to addressing your question specifically: that would be speculating on speculation.

There we go again--doctrinal statements---regardless of the number of quotes from your prophets saying that God the Father had a father, and e had a father and he had a father and on and on--many, many, many, gods. Statements from a prophet of God are not speculation.

mmksparbud said:

Angels
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

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Yes God is the Father of angels and the spirits of man:
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:6 - 7)

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(New Testament | James 2:26)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Why is God the Father called Father if He is not our Father?:
(New Testament | Matthew 23:9)

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

You see spirit as some sort of entity?

Bible definition of spirit
The Old Testament. The Hebrew word for "spirit" is ruah [;jWr]. It appears 389 times in the Old Testament. Its varied use almost defies analysis, but some emphases are discernible. It is used more often of God (136 times) than of persons or animals (129 times). Its basic meaning is wind (113 times).

SPIRIT

spir'-it (ruach; pneuma; Latin, spiritus):

1. Primary and Figurative Senses

(1) As Wind, Breath

(2) As Anger or Fury

(3) As Mental and Moral Qualities in Man

2. Shades of Meaning

(1) As Life-Principle

(2) As Surviving Death

(3) Spiritual Manifestations

3. Human and Divine Spirit

(1) The Human as Related with the Divine

(2) Operations of the Divine Spirit as Third Person of the Trinity

4. Old Testament Applications

5. Various Interpretations

1. Primary and Figurative Senses:

(1) As Wind, Breath:

Used primarily in the Old Testament and New Testament of the wind, as in Genesis 8:1; Numbers 11:31; Amos 4:13 ("createth the wind"); Hebrews 1:7 (angels, "spirits" or "winds" in margin); often used of the breath, as in Job 12:10; 15:30, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (wicked consumed by "the breath of his mouth").

(2) As Anger or Fury:

In a figurative sense it was used as indicating anger or fury, and as such applied even to God, who destroys by the "breath of his nostrils" (Job 4:9; Exodus 15:8; 2 Samuel 22:16; see 2 Thessalonians 2:8).

(3) As Mental and Moral Qualities in Man:

Hence, applied to man--as being the seat of emotion in desire or trouble, and thus gradually of mental and moral qualities in general (Exodus 28:3, "the spirit of wisdom"; Ezekiel 11:19, "a new spirit" etc.). Where man is deeply stirred by the Divine Spirit, as among the prophets, we have a somewhat similar use of the word, in such expressions as:

"The Spirit of the Lord came .... upon him" (1 Samuel 10:10).

2. Shades of Meaning:

(1) As Life-Principle:

The spirit as life-principle in man has various applications:

sometimes to denote an apparition (Matthew 14:26, the King James Version "saying, It is a spirit"; Luke 24:37, the King James Version "had seen a spirit"); sometimes to denote angels, both fallen and unfallen (Hebrews 1:14, "ministering spirits"; Matthew 10:1, "unclean spirits"; compare also Matthew 12:43; Mark 1:23,26,27; and in Revelation 1:4, "the seven Spirits .... before his throne").

(2) As Surviving Death:

The spirit is thus in man the principle of life--but of man as distinguished from the brute--so that in death this spirit is yielded to the Lord (Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59; 1 Corinthians 5:5, "that the spirit may be saved"). Hence, God is called the "Father of spirits" (Hebrews 12:9).

(3) Spiritual Manifestations:

Thus generally for all the manifestations of the spiritual part in man, as that which thinks, feels, wills; and also to denote certain qualities which characterize the man, e.g. "poor in spirit" (Matthew 5:3); "spirit of gentleness" (Galatians 6:1); "of bondage" (Romans 8:15); "of jealousy" (Numbers 5:14); "of fear" (2 Timothy 1:7 the King James Version); "of slumber" (Romans 11:8 the King James Version). Hence, we are called upon to "rule over our own spirit" (Proverbs 16:32; 25:28), and are warned against being overmastered by a wrong spirit (Luke 9:55 the King James Version, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of"). So man may submit to the "spirit of error," and turn away from the "spirit of truth" (1John 4:6). Thus we read of the "spirit of counsel" (Isaiah 11:2); "of wisdom" (Ephesians 1:17).

3. Human and Divine Spirit:

(1) The Human as Related with the Divine:

We go a step higher when we find the human spirit brought into relationship with the Divine Spirit. For man is but a creature to whom life has been imparted by God's spirit--life being but a resultant of God's breath. Thus life and death are realistically described as an imparting or a withdrawing of God's breath, as in Job 27:3; 33:4; 34:14, "spirit and breath" going together. The spirit may thus be "revived" (Genesis 45:27), or "overwhelmed" (Psalms 143:4), or "broken" (Proverbs 15:13). And where sin has been keenly felt, it is "a broken spirit" which is "a sacrifice to God" (Psalms 51:17); and when man submits to the power of sin, a new direction is given to his mind:

he comes under a "spirit of whoredom" (Hosea 4:12); he becomes "proud in spirit" (Ecclesiastes 7:8), instead of being "patient in spirit"; he is a fool because he is "hasty in spirit" and gives way to "anger" (Ecclesiastes 7:9). The "faithful in spirit" are the men who resist talebearing and backbiting in the world (Proverbs 11:13). In such instances as these the difference between "soul" and "spirit" appears.



4. Old Testament Applications:

In the Old Testament this spirit of God appears in varied functions, as brooding over chaos (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13); as descending upon men, on heroes like Othniel, Gideon, etc. (Judges 3:10; 6:34), on prophets (Ezekiel 37:1), on "cunning workmen," like Bezalel and Aholiab (Exodus 31:2,3,4, "filled with the Spirit of God"), and specially in such passages as Psalms 51:11, where the very presence of God is indicated by an abiding influence of the Holy Spirit:

"The Spirit of Yahweh is Yahweh himself."

5. Various Interpretations:

May we not reach a still higher stage? Wendt in his interesting monograph (Die Begriffe Fleisch und Geist), of which extracts are given in Dickson's Paul's Use of the Terms Flesh and Spirit, draws attention to the transcendental influence of the Divine ruach in the Old Testament as expressed in such phrases as `to put on' (Judges 6:34), `to fall upon' (14:6,19), `to settle' (Numbers 11:25). May we not then rightly assume that more is meant than a mere influence emanating from a personal God? Are we not right in maintaining with Davidson that "there are indeed a considerable number of passages in the Old Testament which might very well express the idea that the Spirit is a distinct hypostasis or person."? (see SUBSTANCE). Rejecting the well-known passage in Genesis:

"Let us make man after our own image," which some have interpreted in a trinitarian sense, we may point to such texts as Zechariah 4:6, "by my Spirit"; Isaiah 63:10,11, "They rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit"; "Where is he that put his holy Spirit in the midst of them?" This is borne out by the New Testament, with its warnings against "grieving the Holy Spirit," "lying against the Holy Spirit," and kindred expressions (Ephesians 4:30; Acts 5:3). It is this Spirit which "beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God" (Romans 8:16)--the spirit which, as Auberlen has put it (PRE1, article "Geist des Menschen"), "appears in a double relationship to us, as the principle of natural life, which is ours by birth, and that of spiritual life, which we receive through the new birth (Wiedergeburt)." Hence, Paul speaks of God whom he serves "with his spirit" (Romans 1:9); and in 2 Timothy 1:3 he speaks of serving God "in a pure conscience."
Spirit - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
1Co_15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Rev_16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

living soul--whether man or animal is used in the same way for it is the same breath of life that God gave to all. It is His breath of life that makes us a living spirit--that same breath, spirit, goes back to God when we die--without that breath of life---we are nothing but an empty clay vessel.

He is the way said:

Have you heard the parable of the prodigal son? All of us were lost as we became subject to sin and vanity:

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The prodigal son was still the son when he came back--he did not need to be adopted when he came back.----had that son brought a friend for his father to raise as his own son, his brother, that friend would have had to be adopted to be considered an heir.

mmksparbud said:

You see spirit as some sort of entity?

Bible definition of spirit
The Old Testament. The Hebrew word for "spirit" is ruah [;jWr]. It appears 389 times in the Old Testament. Its varied use almost defies analysis, but some emphases are discernible. It is used more often of God (136 times) than of persons or animals (129 times). Its basic meaning is wind (113 times).

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Yes I see the spirit of man as an entity. The gospel was preached to the dead who didn't have bodies:
(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Angels are spirits and they are very much entities:

(New Testament | Hebrews 1:13 - 14)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

He is the way said:

Yes I see the spirit of man as an entity. The gospel was preached to the dead who didn't have bodies:
(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Angels are spirits and they are very much entities:

(New Testament | Hebrews 1:13 - 14)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

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Context--there is more than one meaning
Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
It goes to God--not to heaven, not to be with God--to God who gave it. IT comes from God--not from heaven, not from anywhere else out there--from God, He breathed that spirit into man and animals--0thst same breath---are you actually saying that every living thing that God breathed His sprit into also lived before --every insect, every bird, every animal???? Is that what you actually believe, since you believe that God did not create out of nothing, it all existed as matter, so along with every human--every animal also pre existed???

He is the way said:

Good question. Why don't you ask Him? Joseph Smith said He was once a man like Jesus was.

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He is the way, doesn't the thought of God being a man bring a multitude of questions to your mind? Not necessarily mysterious and deep questions but how did His body come to be.... and such like that.

He is the way said:

Truth is we don't much about this. Most people don't know much about what heaven is like. Do you know what heaven is like?

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Thank you for your honesty. Yeah not direct 'been there done that' kind of knowledge that's for sure. We have quite a bit to say about the eternal state and man's ultimate end. The four last things is a meditation the Catholic Church recommends to all of us. Death-Judgment-Heaven-Hell. Eternal existence is something our mystics and theologians have shared much with us from their experiences and meditations. Our prayer life is rich as well. Some of us experience God joining our prayer and lifting us up to Him. It's when our prayer life has matured. It's called contemplative prayer. Contemplatives offer the Church a wealth of knowledge about union with God , it's intimate and very nuptual in character.

1 God Was Once a Man As We Are Now
When he was a young man, Lorenzo Snow was promised by the Lord through the Patriarch to the Church that through obedience to the gospel he could become as great as God, “and you cannot wish to be greater”(Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, pp. 9-10).

President Lorenzo Snow recorded this experience that occurred when he was still a young elder: “The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun shone at noon-day, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man.” Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: “Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you” (quoted by LeRoi C. Snow, in “Devotion to Divine Inspiration,” Improvement Era, June 1919, pp. 651-56).

The Prophet Joseph Smith said:
“...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another,
and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth” (Teachings, pp. 345-46; italics in original).

President Brigham Young elaborated on this concept: “It must be that God knows something about temporal things, and has a body and been on an earth; were it not so He would not know how to judge men righteously, according to the temptations and sins they have had to contend with” (as cited by Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, Apr. 1969, p. 130; or Improvement Era, June 1969, p. 104).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 151

Jane_Doe said:

Remember: there's no LDS doctrinal statements on the Father's past. The two speculative quotes are just that: speculation.

As to addressing your question specifically: that would be speculating on speculation.

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Joseph Smith died in 1844. Before he died he taught that God was once a man like us. 140 years later, the Mormon church still held to those teachings that you try to pawn off as speculation. Sorry, but that indicates a church that is in apostasy or a member who disagrees with all those prophets.

1 God Was Once a Man As We Are Now
When he was a young man, Lorenzo Snow was promised by the Lord through the Patriarch to the Church that through obedience to the gospel he could become as great as God, “and you cannot wish to be greater”(Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, pp. 9-10).

President Lorenzo Snow recorded this experience that occurred when he was still a young elder: “The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun shone at noon-day, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man.” Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: “Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you” (quoted by LeRoi C. Snow, in “Devotion to Divine Inspiration,” Improvement Era, June 1919, pp. 651-56).

The Prophet Joseph Smith said:
“...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth” (Teachings, pp. 345-46)

President Brigham Young elaborated on this concept: “It must be that God knows something about temporal things, and has a body and been on an earth; were it not so He would not know how to judge men righteously, according to the temptations and sins they have had to contend with” (as cited by Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, Apr. 1969, p. 130; or Improvement Era, June 1969, p. 104).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 151

GOD IS NOW AN EXALTED MAN WITH POWERS OF ETERNAL INCREASE
Our Father in Heaven Lives in an Exalted Marriage Relationship

"No matter to what heights God has attained or will attain, he does not stand alone; for side by side with him, in all her glory, a glory like unto his, stands a companion, the mother of his children. For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother." (Melvin J. Ballard, as quoted in Bryant S. Hinckley, Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, pp. 205-6.)
Achieving a Celestial Marriage, copyright 1976, Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 129

Catholic4Jesus said:

The LDS church have a problem being told that the rest of christianity doesn't accept them as christians. I can understand that this would upset them, whether their doctrine is right or wrong, they think they are following christ so its understandable that this would be a trigger of defensive behaviour.

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I have to disagree in the context of this particular thread. I am impressed with the composure of the LDS members here as they have faced some severe criticisms of their faith.

Catholic4Jesus said:

What I think the LDS members don't understand is that the very basis of their religion accuses every other denomination of not being christians. After all, according to the LDS other churches are 'an abomination'(especially the catholic church!), they believe they are the only 'true and living church on the face of the earth' and the only church with the proper authority to baptise people.

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I agree, and that is evident in the context of this thread. This sentiment hasn't been addressed in any LDS post that I have read so far. Inherent to the claim to be the bearer of inerrant doctrine is a life fraught with trials of persecution whether true or not. The experience of persecution is common to LDS faithful in some way or another.

Persecution has a powerful bonding effect on a community. Persecution strengthened the bonds between members of the early Church as well. The Mormon persecution experience, as it is historically recent, accompanied with doctrine that is exclusive to them, created a bond that is as exclusive as their teaching.

I may be wrong, but I think if Mormons acknowledge the mutually exclusive characteristic of their faith, that would oppose what seems to be their current evangelism. I think the LDS Church, to counter the exclusive character of their doctrine, has adopted a more inclusive approach to evangelizing. Of course I don't know if that is an official move.

Catholic4Jesus said:

This belief system automatically renders every other christian church wrong. All our baptisms are classed in valid and we can never be in the presence of God and Jesus (unless we accept mormon baptism when we die and go though the entire LDS exaltation process from the spirit world). Without a valid baptism we are not christians so the LDS church is calling all other denominations not real christians whether they admit it or not. Its highly insulting to tell a christian that their baptism really wasn't the real deal, and if you're going to say that then, well you should have some very serious black and white, documented, hard core evidence to back that statement up.

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Well, it goes with the territory of claiming to reestablish an institution that's lasted for 2000 years. The doctrine and rituals must appear similar but contrasting enough to be credible. I think evidence of reality, that isn't possible for man to know otherwise, is required to back up a claim that a Divine Revelation has been received.

Catholic4Jesus said:

LDS members need to understand that this is going to make people furious before they even start any sort of debate with mainstream christians. Not to mention that LDS only make up 1% of the christian population, so if thats the best God can do to convert his people to 'true christianity' then one would have to agree he's missing the mark.

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Indeed it is extraordinarily inconsistent with Divine Revelation to claim that it can be corrupted by the community that God gave it to, and that God has to give it again. That God makes mistakes. As if God needs a human mortal to restore Himself to another people because He goofed the first time. God considered a bad judge of character who picked the wrong bride to marry. Earth bound type of thinking.

I hope I'm not being too rash. Not venting too much. The issues run very deep for mainstream Christians who know their faith. The LDS Church claims Revelation of God given to us, as their own, and then re-presents it to the world with it's supposed true meaning. Theirs is a doctrine that uses the same language as ours, looks and sounds like our kind of Christianity, but the substance that lies underneath the language and appearance is radically different and exclusive.

The issue that bothers me the most. The word eternal is used in LDS doctrine and the definition developed by Christian theologians since the first centuries is attached to LDS concepts and ideas that are earthly, and temporal.

There is a certain difference between Truth that comes from above and Truth that doesn't. I am unable to find a Divinely Revealed truth in LDS teaching. There isn't anything I've read so far that reveals eternal reality or adds to what is revealed about eternal (heavenly) things or eternal life. John the Baptist and Jesus taught about their certain difference. The thing is, if you can't grasp the newly revealed things, it's because you think what you do grasp are heavenly revealed things. In the case of Nicodemus what he believed was divinely revealed but that's how revelation yet to be received by the human mind, relates to a former revelation that has been received and believed. The ability to grasp the new requires one to suspend belief in the old, so you can recieve the new as possibly true. That is the reason Jesus taught 'all things are possible with God".


John 3
“Very truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know and testify to what we have seen; yet you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?


John 3:25-27
Now a discussion about purification arose between John’s disciples and a Jew. They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, the one who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you testified, here he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” John answered, “No one can receive anything except what has been given from heaven.

John 3:31
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things.