What does "Non-denominational" mean??

Duvduv said:

It's so funny. I make an assertion that there's no corroborative evidence for Christianity in the first century I get insulted. And then you turn around and make a preposterous uncorroborated assertion about unnamed rabbis! The Talmud mentions hundreds of rabbis, and you've consulted with all of them!?!

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I have consulted with rabbis about various things.. Some things were helpful.

But... When I found out that Jesus is the Messiah. Then I realized for the first time in my life what it means to be a Jew. Being drawn into union with God suddenly opened my eyes as to how Moses and David could freely know God. Not as a concept. But, to know God. It all became quite simple to understand.

Without accepting the atonement provided byJesus I could only wonder what it was that allowed Moses and the prophets to feel so one with God. Being "born again" was not a new Christian thing. It used to also be a Jewish thing. When Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again there was no Christianity at that time. For, Jesus was speaking as a Jew to a Jewish religious leader.

Duvduv said:

He involved the angels, some of whom later descended and took human women. So what??

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How are you convoluting that to mean anything about what we discuss? Those wayward angels almost destroyed the purity of the human DNA. That is why God had to destroy that mutant race with Noah's flood. For if that mutant race (half angel, half man) was allowed to take over and replace the human DNA? The promised seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15) could never have been fulfilled by God.

Duvduv said:

So how did Moses and David obtain atonement if Jesus had not been crucified down here yet? Nothing about Jesus' atonement for them and millions more in the New Testament....

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God accepted the shed blood of animals and their sacrifice as a temporary measure, knowing in His divine foreknowledge that the sacrifice of Christ was an accomplished fact.

God sees future events as having been already accomplished.

Duvduv said:

So how did Moses and David obtain atonement if Jesus had not been crucified down here yet? Nothing about Jesus' atonement for them and millions more in the New Testament....

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God does not work within the confines of time. God already had the a atonement completed in His plan (for, God can not fail) before man was even created. God in his omniscience knew man would fall.



Add to that.. The Bible teaches that all Jews who believed in the Lord God before the time of the Cross did not get access to heaven at their death. Instead, they had to wait in a receiving area below the earth, awaiting for the Atonement to happen.

"Rabbi" Jesus (yes..he was a rabbi) explained this reality of what happened to Jews after their death. Jesus was telling them where believers went before the Cross could take place. Only after the Cross took place in real time, could man be allowed then into Heaven. Until that time, men were forgiven on the basis faith in the Lord God and of the promise of redemption from God. God's integrity of His word is what saved them until Jesus took upon himself all the sins of the world . God can not lie, nor fail. God knew Jesus would succeed. On the basis of his unfailing foreknowledge God was free to reserve for Himself all who had believed in Him before the Atonement. The animal sacrifice atonements were mere teaching tools so that when the right time came, men would be able to grasp the Atonement of the Cross.

Read here .... Bible Gateway passage: Luke 16:19-31 - New International Version

Duvduv said:

It's so funny. I make an assertion that there's no corroborative evidence for Christianity in the first century I get insulted. And then you turn around and make a preposterous uncorroborated assertion about unnamed rabbis! The Talmud mentions hundreds of rabbis, and you've consulted with all of them!?!

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The Talmud isn’t even the Word of God.

Have fun chasing that rabbit hole. Which is why all of the additional stuff added to God’s Word by you guys.

Duvduv said:

It's so funny. I make an assertion that there's no corroborative evidence for Christianity in the first century I get insulted. And then you turn around and make a preposterous uncorroborated assertion about unnamed rabbis! The Talmud mentions hundreds of rabbis, and you've consulted with all of them!?!

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Have you consulted with any of them? If you could go back in time before the Church age began and showed them the passages that reveal the plurality of God? Do you know what they would say?

The rabbis needed to shy away from this factor (it is believed) because of the pagans having their polytheistic beliefs they wished to avoid. For they also understood that the plurality was also the One true God.

If I spoke through an audio speaker and insulted and slandered someone? Would that speaker get sued? Or, me? That speaker and I were one and the same. But, I am not an audio speaker!

go sue the speaker!

Duvduv said:

What is the reason that the United Methodist Church and the United Church of Christ don't merge as similar ones have done in Canads? Or don't merge with the Presbyterian Church of the USA? Indeed, I was surprised to read of the phenomenon of mergers of Lutheran and Calvinist churches in Europe and in the USA...

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Why don't they have teachers who are skilled in exegeting the Scriptures so everyone listening can be continuously growing.... being even corrected when need be because some old notions were not accurate understanding. That would be a living and vibrant church! Denominations are not able to grow that way because of the very walls of locked in thinking they have created. After all.. that is why we have "denominations."

Duvduv said:

Thank you, but I was interested in knowing how those denominations think about this issue.

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Well then? Why don't not the reformed are orthodox Judaism merge?

Duvduv said:

So how did Moses and David obtain atonement if Jesus had not been crucified down here yet? Nothing about Jesus' atonement for them and millions more in the New Testament....

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I don’t mean to be rude and please only take this
As a suggestion, but it is extremely hard to follow replies made to specific posters
And topics when the Reply button is not used.

All your posts read as standalone points, not as a question or further clarification of someone else’s post or point.

Have you used this button before? It’s really easy and their is a Technical aubforum on CF that explains how to use the features

Duvduv said:

Except that all sinners needed the complete atonement of Jesus according to the religion, and this wasn't available until the first century, at which point the temple sacrifices still existed. So something was wrong, and the New Testament doesn't explain that history. There was a huge difference between the atonement of Jesus and some sacrifices of animals. People before the first century werr apparently being shortchanged, especially beyond the boundaries of the Jews since the gentiles had no atonement of Jesus....

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Maybe you don’t understand the concept of Christianity noting the word CHRIST as the first five letters of our faith.

If you really think about what you are saying, it is a very small issue.

First, the Old Covenant is a people group Covenant for the most part. Made with the Israelite/Hebrew people with a few outsiders outside of that people group converting to the faith/tribe.

It was THAT people group that was promised the Messiah, our Wonderful, Beloved, Savior Jesus Christ.

Let’s not act like that people group, or maybe I should say your people as you are Jewish were left high and dry by God. They have their specific Covenant, the Old Covenant that handles the time before Christ and the New Covenant.

Christians don’t make a real judgement one way or the other on your or that Covenant. If you are unhappy with the Covenant God have the Old Testament peoples, you should work that out with God because that was the Covenant before the Messiah and we don’t have a “horse in that race” per se.

It seems you are twisting our belief in the JEWISH promised Messiah that has come as a way that you seem to be saying (correct me of I am wrong) that we think there is no salvation for Old Covenant people or something. That is not our position and even though we have said it over and over you seem to want to make this a “Christian” issue when it is in fact a Jewish issue.

Christianity did NOT exist until Christ, ala the first century.

That’s an important point that maybe you should reflect on and take in.

We believe in the Old Testament.

Duvduv said:

If this statement is true so who needs separate churches wasting limited financial resources? Why not merge? They are attesting that the issues that divide them are a lie. See here: History

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Why are you taking this thread into another completely different direction?

Maybe you should write to that specific organization.

genez said:

Well then? Why don't not the reformed are orthodox Judaism merge?

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Why not Messianic, Orthodox and Reformed? Or any of the other denominations in Judaism? Good question.