The UnScriptural concept of "no works"

Johnny4ChristJesus

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Romans 4 [English Standard Version (ESV)]
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

I love Abraham! He is one of my favorite Biblical characters. Romans 4 is a great accounting, but don't forget about Hebrews 11 and James 2. James goes so far to say that "faith without works is dead" and uses Abraham as the very example of that. Maybe one way to put it is: "People say they believe a lot of things, but how they act shows what they really believe." And, Abraham's belief led to action. When God said..., Abraham did... (because He trusted/believed/had faith in God).
 
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GraceBro

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If a person wants to stand before God and have their works be the measuring stick of their worthiness, He will oblige them. He will put their works up against His standard of righteousness, which is His Law. And, as Jesus said, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48)." You will fail up against this standard because God expects 100% obedience to His Law. The only result is to be cast into the pit because as James pointed out, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it (James 2;10)." The only way to enter Heaven is through God's grace and mercy. Any works we perform are prepared by God for us to do (Ephesians 2:10) through His indwelling Holy Spirit and are not up to the be judged by other Christians. Besides, the work of the Lord is to believe in Jesus (John 6:29). The righteous live by faith (Galatians 3:11) not by works. Trust the Lord to live the Christian life in and through you because He is the only One that can live it. Grace and Peace.
 
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bugkiller

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I love Abraham! He is one of my favorite Biblical characters. Romans 4 is a great accounting, but don't forget about Hebrews 11 and James 2. James goes so far to say that "faith without works is dead" and uses Abraham as the very example of that. Maybe one way to put it is: "People say they believe a lot of things, but how they act shows what they really believe." And, Abraham's belief led to action. When God said..., Abraham did... (because He trusted/believed/had faith in God).
Yeah and Abraham lied because he did not trust God. So what works did Abraham have?

bugkiller
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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Yeah and Abraham lied because he did not trust God. So what works did Abraham have?

bugkiller

So, God clearly loved Abraham and I could argue that it is because of men like him that I was even given a chance to know God.

And, while Abraham did lie to men in foreign lands, I find it a bit concerning (for you) that you would choose to highlight that verses the many things Abraham did in obedience to God or through conversations with God.
 
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bugkiller

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So, God clearly loved Abraham and I could argue that it is because of men like him that I was even given a chance to know God.

And, while Abraham did lie to men in foreign lands, I find it a bit concerning (for you) that you would choose to highlight that verses the many things Abraham did in obedience to God or through conversations with God.
We're discussing righteousness by the law. Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God, not what he did.

bugkiller
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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We're discussing righteousness by the law. Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God, not what he did.

bugkiller

Yes, and out of that belief In God, Abraham acted. Did He inappropriately try to help God by telling a half-truth--yes. Did he try to help God by going into his wife's servant girl? Yes. Did those mistakes cause problems for both his descendents and others? Yes.

The Law you speak of, however, wasn't even given to men at that time. When God told Abraham to do something, He did; so that in the absence of specific direction on "how to", it is not surprising that he might make mistakes. He also asked God "how will I know..." once.

But when God told him to leave all he knew, he did. When God told him to send a son he loved away, he did. When God told him to circumcize and on what day, he did. When God told him to sacrifice his heir, he demonstrated absolute obedience. Abraham chose to honor God by refusing worldly spoils offered him. Abraham chose to tithe to the one sent who he recognized to be "of God". See HEB 11:8-19; James 2:17-26; and especially Gen 15. Did you notice how Scripture says in Gen 15:6 that "He believed in the LORD, not that he believed Gen 15:5, because He asked for proof that he would be given the land in 15:8. But, he already believed God and acted on that promise in Gen 12!

Ac
 
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bugkiller

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Yes, and out of that belief In God, Abraham acted. Did He inappropriately try to help God by telling a half-truth--yes. Did he try to help God by going into his wife's servant girl? Yes. Did those mistakes cause problems for both his descendents and others? Yes.

The Law you speak of, however, wasn't even given to men at that time. When God told Abraham to do something, He did; so that in the absence of specific direction on "how to", it is not surprising that he might make mistakes. He also asked God "how will I know..." once.

But when God told him to leave all he knew, he did. When God told him to send a son he loved away, he did. When God told him to circumcize and on what day, he did. When God told him to sacrifice his heir, he demonstrated absolute obedience. Abraham chose to honor God by refusing worldly spoils offered him. Abraham chose to tithe to the one sent who he recognized to be "of God". See HEB 11:8-19; James 2:17-26; and especially Gen 15. Did you notice how Scripture says in Gen 15:6 that "He believed in the LORD, not that he believed Gen 15:5, because He asked for proof that he would be given the land in 15:8. But, he already believed God and acted on that promise in Gen 12!

Ac
My point exactly Abraham's righteousness wasn't by the law.

bugkiller
 
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aspie3000

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Wasn't the book of Hebrews from which the verse the OP is pulling from is in written to Jewish believers who were thinking about turning their back on Christianity and returning to Judaism? Basically what I'm saying as that most of the verses talking about trampling on Christ or crucifying Christ anew and losing your salvation forever were talking about apostasy or publicly rejecting Christ and leaving Christianity?
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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My point exactly Abraham's righteousness wasn't by the law.

bugkiller
The problem is, it was YOU, not I, that brought up the Mosaic Law. When I talked about works, I never spoke about The Law. But, as I continued to say, Abraham's actions followed His belief. Abraham was obedient to God--which is completely consistent with the New Testament concepts of belief, faith, and love--as shared in the Scriptures.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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Wasn't the book of Hebrews from which the verse the OP is pulling from is in written to Jewish believers who were thinking about turning their back on Christianity and returning to Judaism? Basically what I'm saying as that most of the verses talking about trampling on Christ or crucifying Christ anew and losing your salvation forever were talking about apostasy or publicly rejecting Christ and leaving Christianity?

Where is your justification for discarding the Book of Hebrews? I don't see any reference IN SCRIPTURE that claims what you have been inappropriately taught is actually true. If you take that slant, you might as well write off everything else as well--as written to another people for a specific reason that existed back then. So, when you are done eliminating, what are you left with to base your faith on?
 
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aspie3000

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Where is your justification for discarding the Book of Hebrews? I don't see any reference IN SCRIPTURE that claims what you have been inappropriately taught is actually true. If you take that slant, you might as well write off everything else as well--as written to another people for a specific reason that existed back then. So, when you are done eliminating, what are you left with to base your faith on?

Where did I say anything about discarding the book of Hebrews?
 
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bugkiller

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The problem is, it was YOU, not I, that brought up the Mosaic Law. When I talked about works, I never spoke about The Law. But, as I continued to say, Abraham's actions followed His belief. Abraham was obedient to God--which is completely consistent with the New Testament concepts of belief, faith, and love--as shared in the Scriptures.
What works were or are you talking about, if not works of the law? I do not recall any specifics.

bugkiller
 
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aspie3000

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Where is your justification for discarding the Book of Hebrews? I don't see any reference IN SCRIPTURE that claims what you have been inappropriately taught is actually true. If you take that slant, you might as well write off everything else as well--as written to another people for a specific reason that existed back then. So, when you are done eliminating, what are you left with to base your faith on?

After reading your comment again I think I now understand what you're saying. You've misunderstood my argument. Hebrews is a letter to a church of Jewish believers who are thinking about turning their back on Christianity and returning to Judaism. What I am positing is that this verse you are thinking of when you say someone can sin so much they lose their salvation Hebrews 10:26 is not saying that you lose your salvation by sinning a lot and instead refers to apostasy or complete rejection of Christ after being saved trampling Christ under foot and crucifying him publicly once again. The idea is that someone who has apostatized has rejected the blood of the covenant that pays for ones sins and thus there is no longer sacrifice for them. Here are some commentaries from people who know a lot more than you or me who back my assertion Hebrews 10:26 Commentaries: For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Here's some more to hammer the point home Hebrews 10:26 - Why say to the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will brin... This is spelled out clearly in Hebrews six Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 6 - New International Version and is being doubled down upon in Hebrews 10:26.
 
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bugkiller

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"No works" is indeed unscriptural. Even as a Protestant I haven't held to "no works". The Bible makes it clear there are works involved in being a Christian.

However that doesn't mean that the works are what saves us.
Works and fruit are totally different things.

bugkiller
 
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First, let me say that NOBODY can earn salvation apart from Jesus. But, with what Jesus did for us and continues to do for us, how dare us tell God that it isn't good enough. Do people actually think about this when saying things like "nobody's perfect" "we are all just sinners", etc????

So, Jesus died so that you could be forgiven of your sin. His blood covers your sin; but not so you can keep on willfully sinning once you come to Jesus. That doesn't work for God. And, it certainly isn't what He said in Scripture. In fact, Scripture says the opposite. Even people who try to make Paul's message a stand-alone Gospel have to read where Paul said: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live." (Rom 8:13) and "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that he shall also reap. For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:7-8)

Now let's get past the misuse of the "free gift" concept:

Let's say I get drunk (I don't drink, but let's pretend). Let's say, I kill a pedestrian who did nothing wrong to deserve to be killed. Let's pretend, to make matters worse, that pedestrian was Jesus Christ Himself--who was absolutely free of sin before God. You with me?

So, I get put in jail.

But, when His certified last will and testament are read, He says: "I know that someone is going to kill Me, because they were driving drunk. I refuse to press charges. I want them declared innocent." (now some imagination is required, because Jesus wasn't materialistic; but...) let's say He continues in His will: "Furthermore, I want the one who killed me to be given My car, My house, and all the money I had in My savings."

So, I am released from prison and given His car, His house, and all His money and what He should have had--a FREE life, no longer in bondage to anything. That was what He wanted me to have. That was His GIFT to me. But.....

Let's say I choose to hang out with the wrong people and eventually go back to the alcohol and even add in drugs--because now I have all the money I need and its the "in thing" to do. Suppose I spend everything on the drugs and once addicted mortgage my house to keep my supply coming in or ruin my house because I open the doors to people who don't care to take care of it. Then, to bring it full circle:

I'm out driving drunk (again), total the car, and kill someone in the process,

Was I never given a free gift in the first place OR did I destroy the free gift I was given by my failure to change my lifestyle--after being set free the first time?

If we take God's gift and choose not to repent--but instead choose to continue doing what He freed us from--we are doing worse. We are "trampling underfoot the Son of God." (Heb 10:29). We would be choosing to destroy what He did for us, by choosing to do what glorifies the devil, not God and by choosing to walk in the flesh instead of walking in His Provision--The Holy Spirit! How sad!

Be careful what you believe. It may just cost you your life!

I agree. A believer who lives out their faith will have works because it is proof that the Lord lives within them. For Jesus is the source of our eternal life. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). 1 John 2:4 says that person who says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.

A believer is initially and ultimately saved by God's grace or God's gift (Jesus Christ). However, after we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
(James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
 
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"No works" is indeed unscriptural. Even as a Protestant I haven't held to "no works". The Bible makes it clear there are works involved in being a Christian.

However that doesn't mean that the works are what saves us.

If works are involved in being a Christian then it sounds like to me you are saying works are required as a part of the salvation process or in showing that one is saved. For can a believer who lives out their faith be saved without works? If you say "no" then we must conclude works are necessary as a part of salvation.

The confusion arises on the works issue because folks do not realize that Paul was describing how we are initially and ultimately saved without works in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5. Paul was refuting Works Alone Salvation or Circumcision Salvationism which was a part of the Old Covenant Law that is no more (See Romans 3:1, and Galatians 5:24).
 
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