Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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BNR32FAN

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Tares = those who are evil.

Wheat = those who are righteous.

No matter how hard you try, a tare can't become wheat. Unless God does the changing. 2 Cor 5:17

No matter how hard you try, wheat can't become a tare. God won't do this.


I’m not going to post the parable about wheat and tares to save space. You say wheat cannot become tares but everything in this post suggests otherwise. If we can’t fall away from grace because we simply believe then why are all these examples written explaining how someone can lose their salvation? Why doesn’t the gospel simply say believe in Jesus Christ if everything else doesn’t matter? All of these situations are about loss of salvation. They apply to everyone but more so to believers because like I said before none of these situations matter if someone doesn’t believe. Believing doesn’t make anyone exempt from these situations.


And how can people prepare themselves for the coming of Jesus?

By doing good works?

Stopping sin in there life?

What about accepting Jesus as Savior? Would that work.


Obviously in this parable Jesus is the master who will return unannounced. So who is the servant of the master? That would be a believer. A person who’s faith leads them to do good works and repent of sin is what prepares them for Christ’s return. No obviously simply accepting Jesus as your Savior will not save you. That is what all these verses are about. It is accepting Him as your Savior and walking in the Spirit that will save you.


““A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 24:45-51


If you are a believer, you are not an unbeliever.

You are one of the victorious ones, having overcome unbelief.


I don’t see where you get that idea from these verses. The word believer is not even mentioned here. What is mentioned is that ALL who do not repent of sin will burn in the lake of fire. There are no exceptions for believers anywhere in the Bible.


“All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.””

Revelation 21:7-8


This passage shows the seriousness of the need to change and become a believer.

How does this passage say that someone can lose there salvation.


I don't know where you get the idea that once you belong to God, He is going to give you up.


1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


Paul still says to these people that were doing such things as the Corinthians were doing that they still belonged to God, they were bought with a price, there bodies were the temple of the Holy Ghost.

And because of this they should glorify God in there spirit and there body.


You ask how does this passage say that someone can lose their salvation? Umm did you read the very first sentence? Unless you turn from sin you will never get into the Kingdom of God. There’s a difference between believing in Jesus and turning from sin. Someone can believe in Jesus and still live their same sinful life. It is absolutely possible and very common.


“Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”

Matthew 18:3-9


I don’t know what your point is about 1 Corinthians 6:17-20. Perhaps another translation will help you understand what is being said.


“Don’t you realize that your bodies are actually parts of Christ? Should a man take his body, which is part of Christ, and join it to a prostitute? Never! And don’t you realize that if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, “The two are united into one.” But the person who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him. Run from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. Don’t you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.”

1 Corinthians 6:15-20
 
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BNR32FAN

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A person is never denied access to God.
I do believe a person can lose their salvation; but if they want to go back to God, He will always say yes.

P.S. I see. It's because I said they cannot have another chance.
I don't remember what I was thinking - I misspoke.
We ALWAYS can have another chance!
Thanks for bringing this up.

Amen sister I figured it was a mistype.
 
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zoidar

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This is your second paragraph in your post no. 384:

My belief is as a young child can't sin he/she is saved because of that. As soon as a person sins that person is responsible to God. But the bible isn't clear on the matter. We have to believe in our loving God and savior Jesus Christ to deal with this the right and just way, as he certainly does.

I'm sure that anyone reading along would agree that a young child is not a baby. Yes, a young child DOES sin, they just are not aware of sin and so they are not held responsible for it. This was my statement from the beginning.
And, I NEVER said a person becomes automatically saved at some age --- I said there is an age of accountability.

If you don't understand this, I really cannot say anymore on the subject.

Not everything is found in scripture. Some concepts take theologians - for instance the Trinity. Also the double nature of Jesus...that He is 100% man and 100% God. This was confirmed in the Chalcedonean Creed. There are other creeds and cases such as this that require theologians to sort things out.

I said young child, because I don't know how young of a child. 1 year old? 2 year old? 3 year old? I don't know when a child starts sinning... If I had said baby you would have thought about someone less than 1 year old, wouldn't you? (It may be a language thing though. When you say baby in swedish, you mean more or less that the "child" is younger than 1 year old.)

Of course I agree that a 5 year old sins ...

But if age of accountability doesn't come from the bible, where and when does it come from? I ask because I'm curious, and I really would love to believe in "age of accountability", so if there is a good ground why to believe this I surely will ...
 
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Doug Melven

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For even when what one verse says appears plain, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it does not say, things which would contradict what other verses say. To arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13). Our doctrine must be based on what the entire Bible says (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and not just on what some unqualified verses say.
Do you think when God says something will happen that we can just say it may or may not happen?
Romans 10:13 says that if we call on the LORD we shall be saved.
There is no "maybe" in this verse as your doctrine of maybe we won't be saved says.
If we lost our salvation, this verse would be a lie.
Note that Jeremiah 32:40 does not mean once-saved-always-saved. For the fear of God comes via His Spirit (Isaiah 11:2). And Christians can wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to depart from God, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
That's just it, that verse says we will not depart, once God puts the FEAR OF THE LORD in us.
And just as you quoted Isaiah 11:2 that would be His Spirit.
Did God lie when He said, "We won't depart"?
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

What do you do with verses like 1 John 4:17?
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Don't even bother with saying this means we don't practice sin, because the verse says, His seed remains in him.
To say that we sin, but we don't make a practice of it, would mean that God sins, but He doesn't make a practice of it.
1 Corinthians 6:17 He that is joined to the LORD is one Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30 Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby you are sealed until the day of redemption.
What is this seal? What is sealed?
 
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JLB777

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Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Those joined to Christ -- severed from Christ
Those under grace -- fallen from grace.

You cannot be severed from something you were never joined to in the first place.
you cannot fall from a position you never had.

I couldn’t agree more Bob, I teach the same thing.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Do you think when God says something will happen that we can just say it may or may not happen?
Romans 10:13 says that if we call on the LORD we shall be saved.
There is no "maybe" in this verse as your doctrine of maybe we won't be saved says.
If we lost our salvation, this verse would be a lie.

That's just it, that verse says we will not depart, once God puts the FEAR OF THE LORD in us.
And just as you quoted Isaiah 11:2 that would be His Spirit.
Did God lie when He said, "We won't depart"?
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

What do you do with verses like 1 John 4:17?
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Don't even bother with saying this means we don't practice sin, because the verse says, His seed remains in him.
To say that we sin, but we don't make a practice of it, would mean that God sins, but He doesn't make a practice of it.
1 Corinthians 6:17 He that is joined to the LORD is one Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30 Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby you are sealed until the day of redemption.
What is this seal? What is sealed?

You still quote Romans 10:13 out of context even tho I showed you that Jesus gave two examples of people who cried out Lord Lord and He refused them because they didn’t FOLLOW his teaching. The title of that chapter is called TRUE DISCIPLES. So why are you still preaching the same thing even tho you have seen that it is not true?

““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21

“A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. What you say flows from what is in your heart. “So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say? I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it. It is like a person building a house who digs deep and lays the foundation on solid rock. When the floodwaters rise and break against that house, it stands firm because it is well built. But anyone who hears and doesn’t obey is like a person who builds a house right on the ground, without a foundation. When the floods sweep down against that house, it will collapse into a heap of ruins.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:45-49

“Later, when the other five bridesmaids returned, they stood outside, calling, ‘Lord! Lord! Open the door for us!’ “But he called back, ‘Believe me, I don’t know you!’ “So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:11-13
 
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GodsGrace101 said in post #416:

Not everything is found in scripture. Some concepts take theologians - for instance the Trinity.

Note that the concept of the Trinity is found in scripture.

For the Bible shows that Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28, Titus 2:13, Philippians 2:6, Matthew 1:23). And He is uncreated God, just as God the Father is uncreated God. For everything created was created by Jesus (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17). Because Jesus is uncreated, there was never a time when He was not. He has always existed. He is YHWH the Holy One, from everlasting (Habakkuk 1:12a, Acts 3:14, Micah 5:2c). He is YHWH the only Savior (Isaiah 43:11, Titus 2:13), YHWH the good shepherd (Psalms 23:1, John 10:11, Mark 10:18), YHWH who will set His feet on the Mount of Olives at His return (Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12), YHWH the first and last (Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 2:8), YHWH the great I AM (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58), the great God (Titus 2:13), the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), one God with God the Father (John 10:30, John 20:28), equal in divinity with God the Father (Philippians 2:6).

Just as the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19) is the three distinct, coexisting Persons (Mark 1:9-11) of God the Father (Galatians 1:3), God the Son (Hebrews 1:8), and God the Holy Spirit (cf. Mark 13:11 and Matthew 10:19-20; Acts 5:3-4), so the Trinity is YHWH the Father, YHWH the Son, and YHWH the Holy Spirit. For YHWH is the only God (Isaiah 45:5-6). He has always been and forever will be the only God (Isaiah 43:10b).

GodsGrace101 said in post #416:

Also the double nature of Jesus...that He is 100% man and 100% God.

Note that just as denying the doctrine of the full-divinity of Jesus is a serious problem, so is denying the doctrine that He remains fully human, now and forever in the flesh (2 John 1:7, Luke 24:39, Hebrews 7:24-26, Hebrews 2:17; 1 Timothy 2:5). For denying either the full-divinity or the full-humanity of Jesus denies His ability to save us sinful humans from hell. For Jesus' human suffering during His Passion had to satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

Jesus Christ's suffering during His Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus is not only a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of His soul (Isaiah 53:11, KJV) was infinite in amount, even though it was not infinite in duration. And so His suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who are not God have finite souls, in order for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus Christ (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11, KJV) an infinite amount, when elect people repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).
 
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BNR32FAN said in post #420:

If someone does turn back to sin they are no longer righteous and not fit for the Kingdom of God. This is another indication that simply believing is not the only thing required for salvation.

That's right, with regard to ultimate salvation.

For 2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b); they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

*******

BNR32FAN said in post #421:

There’s a difference between believing in Jesus and turning from sin. Someone can believe in Jesus and still live their same sinful life.

That brought to mind:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Also, we Christians can fall even further than the devils, in that we can fail even to tremble (Romans 11:20b-22).
 
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Doug Melven said in post #424:

Romans 10:13 says that if we call on the LORD we shall be saved.

That's right. Initial salvation requires faith alone (Ephesians 2:8). But ultimate salvation requires more than faith alone (Matthew 7:21).

For Matthew 7:21-23 shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But, because of free will, there is no assurance that Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole. For Matthew 7:22 could refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are Christians, believers in the Gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.

Doug Melven said in post #424:

Did God lie when He said, "We won't depart"?

No, for that only requires that not all will depart. It does not require that none will depart. For some will (1 Timothy 4:1).

Doug Melven said in post #424:

Ephesians 4:30 Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby you are sealed until the day of redemption.

In Ephesians 4:30, the day of redemption, as in Ephesians 1:14, refers to when, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, obedient Christians' physical bodies will be redeemed (Romans 8:23-25) by being resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal flesh and bone bodies like Jesus was resurrected into on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21).

Ephesians 4:30 and Ephesians 1:14 do not require that every Christian will receive ultimate salvation on the day of redemption.

For some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).
 
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GodsGrace101

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I said young child, because I don't know how young of a child. 1 year old? 2 year old? 3 year old? I don't know when a child starts sinning... If I had said baby you would have thought about someone less than 1 year old, wouldn't you? (It may be a language thing though. When you say baby in swedish, you mean more or less that the "child" is younger than 1 year old.)

Of course I agree that a 5 year old sins ...

But if age of accountability doesn't come from the bible, where and when does it come from? I ask because I'm curious, and I really would love to believe in "age of accountability", so if there is a good ground why to believe this I surely will ...
Hi Z
I learned about the age of accountability when learning Fundamental Theology from a mainline church. It IS biblical but only in a studied manner, you won't find a verse that specifically speaks to this. It's put together from all we know about God and how He is both a loving and also a just God.

I just found a lot on this on the internet. Here is one explanation:

Frequently lost in the discussion regarding the age of accountability is the fact that children, no matter how young, are not “innocent” in the sense of being sinless. The Bible tells us that, even if an infant or child has not committed personal sin, all people, including infants and children, are guilty before God because of inherited and imputed sin. Inherited sin is that which is passed on from our parents. In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” David recognized that even at conception he was a sinner. The very sad fact that infants sometimes die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam’s original sin.

source: Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible? What happens to babies and young children when they die?

This site explained it very well. Please check it out. It seems to me that it's really important to understand this so that we could also witness to teenagers. There's a lot more if you care to read more.
 
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zoidar

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Hi Z
I learned about the age of accountability when learning Fundamental Theology from a mainline church. It IS biblical but only in a studied manner, you won't find a verse that specifically speaks to this. It's put together from all we know about God and how He is both a loving and also a just God.

I just found a lot on this on the internet. Here is one explanation:

Frequently lost in the discussion regarding the age of accountability is the fact that children, no matter how young, are not “innocent” in the sense of being sinless. The Bible tells us that, even if an infant or child has not committed personal sin, all people, including infants and children, are guilty before God because of inherited and imputed sin. Inherited sin is that which is passed on from our parents. In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” David recognized that even at conception he was a sinner. The very sad fact that infants sometimes die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam’s original sin.

source: Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible? What happens to babies and young children when they die?

This site explained it very well. Please check it out. It seems to me that it's really important to understand this so that we could also witness to teenagers. There's a lot more if you care to read more.

Thanks sister!

I would like know when this teaching arose. If the early church taught it or if the idea wasn't held until the reformation. If the early church didn't teach it I don't think it has a very strong ground to stand on.

It's true that David says he was conceived in sin. But would anyone be held responsible and punished for the sinful nature before any sinful act has been commited? I doubt that.

The age 13 sounds way too high in my opinion. I knew that stuff i did was wrong long before that. If someone would say 5 yo I would probably be much more of agreement. But only God knows this, how He will deal with children that don't have faith. That a baby always will be saved I believe. It's more complicated when it's an older child.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Thanks sister!

I would like know when this teaching arose. If the early church taught it or if the idea wasn't held until the reformation. If the early church didn't teach it I don't think it has a very strong ground to stand on.

It's true that David says he was conceived in sin. But would anyone be held responsible and punished for the sinful nature before any sinful act has been commited? I doubt that.

The age 13 sounds way too high in my opinion. I knew that stuff i did was wrong long before that. If someone would say 5 yo I would probably be much more of agreement. But only God knows this, how He will deal with children that don't have faith. That a baby always will be saved I believe. It's more complicated when it's an older child.
Hi Z
As to when this teaching arose: Here is a short history of it. You could look into it some more if you wish...

In the early church the age of accountability was accepted and children were in no danger of being lost. God is a loving and just God and it was believed He would not send an understanding person to hell. For instance, in your statement above you said that you understood you were doing wrong at the age of 5 --- this is true of all kids; they know when they're doing wrong... However, they don't understand that they're sinning against God. I used to teach our faith and I can assure you that children as old as 8 believe they have never sinned until they're taught what sin is.

It was Augustine of Hippo, in about the 400's, that came up with the idea of Original Sin and our inheriting Adam's sin and being imputed with it at birth that the problem began. It was HIS reasoning that made it absolutely necessary for babies to be baptized as soon as possible because he believed that if they died they would go to hell because of this sin they were born with and sin shall not enter heaven. Revelation 21:27

This idea was accepted by the catholic (universal) churches of the period and was continued in those churches until very recently. That's another story.

At the reformation, the original idea in the catholic (universal) church was adapted again and the age of reason returned to be believed in and accepted by the protestant churches, as it should have been.

For instance, even if YOU commit a sin you're not aware of, God could not hold you responsible for it. And so it is with children.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That's right, with regard to ultimate salvation.

For 2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b); they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

*******



That brought to mind:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Also, we Christians can fall even further than the devils, in that we can fail even to tremble (Romans 11:20b-22).

I showed brother Doug that a person’s name can be blotted out of the book of life psalms 69:28 and even showed him that a person’s name can only be written in the book of life if they are a believer revelation 13:8 and he still refuses to accept the fact that people can lose salvation. I mean you can’t get any clearer than this. I mean how can someone deny what they have seen with their own eyes directly from the scriptures? It doesn’t take any sort of interpretation to understand this it is clearly written. Why do people reject what is clearly written? It frustrates me because I just want to help people understand the truth about God’s word and sometimes it seems like people are more interested in being right and too proud to admit they were wrong. I used to believe in OSAS but when I was shown that I was wrong I admitted it because understanding the truth to me and not misleading other is more important than being right. Perhaps it will take more time for him to realize it. I will continue to pray for him.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That's right. Initial salvation requires faith alone (Ephesians 2:8). But ultimate salvation requires more than faith alone (Matthew 7:21).

For Matthew 7:21-23 shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But, because of free will, there is no assurance that Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole. For Matthew 7:22 could refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are Christians, believers in the Gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.



No, for that only requires that not all will depart. It does not require that none will depart. For some will (1 Timothy 4:1).



In Ephesians 4:30, the day of redemption, as in Ephesians 1:14, refers to when, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, obedient Christians' physical bodies will be redeemed (Romans 8:23-25) by being resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal flesh and bone bodies like Jesus was resurrected into on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21).

Ephesians 4:30 and Ephesians 1:14 do not require that every Christian will receive ultimate salvation on the day of redemption.

For some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

On the day of Judgement everyone will proclaim Jesus is Lord. Every knee will bend and every tongue will confess but everyone will not be saved. Believing is the first step towards salvation. If you don’t believe you can’t have faith and devotion. The words faith alone only appear in the Bible one time.

“So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:24
 
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BNR32FAN

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Romans 10:13 says that if we call on the LORD we shall be saved.
There is no "maybe" in this verse as your doctrine of maybe we won't be saved says.
If we lost our salvation, this verse would be a lie.

Please look at the Greek translation of the word “to call upon” epikaleó. Scroll down near the bottom and you can see in the bold letters it’s reference to Romans 10:13 meaning

I call upon (on my behalf) the name of the Lord, i. e. to invoke, adore, worship, the Lord

Now let’s put that into the context of Romans 10:13.

“For “Everyone who calls upon, adores and worships the name of the Lord will be saved.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:13‬

Also notice the term “calls upon” is in the present tense. This implies that the person is still calling upon, adoring, and worshiping the Lord. It doesn’t imply that if someone has stopped calling upon the Lord that they will still be saved. This is a tough one to see because it appears that if anyone has ever called upon the Lord they will be saved but because this idea contradicts other scriptures it cannot be true so we have to examine what exactly is said and see how it can be interpreted in a way that does not contradict the scriptures that say not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will be saved. By this understanding we can conclude that Paul was stating that everyone who currently calls upon the Lord will be saved. That’s the only way that this statement can coincide with other scriptures without contradicting them. The person must still be calling, adoring, and worshipping the Lord to be saved. If they stop doing so they will not be saved.

Bible > Strong's > Greek > 1941
1941. epikaleó
Strong's Concordance
epikaleó: to call upon
Original Word: ἐπικαλέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: epikaleó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-kal-eh'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I call by an additional name, appeal to
Definition: (a) I call (name) by a supplementary (additional, alternative) name, (b) mid: I call upon, appeal to, address.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from epi and kaleó
Definition
to call upon
NASB Translation
address (1), appeal (2), appealed (4), call (7), called (14), calling (1), calls (1).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1941: ἐπικαλέω

ἐπικαλέω, ἐπικαλῶ: 1 aorist ἐπεκαλεσα; (passive and middle, present ἐπικαλοῦμαι); perfect passive ἐπικέκλημαι; pluperfect 3 person singular ἐπεκέκλητο, and with neglect of augment (cf. Winers Grammar, § 12, 5; Buttmann, 33 (29)) ἐπικεκλητο (Acts 26:32Lachmann); 1 aorist passive ἐπεκλήθην; future middle ἐπικαλέσομαι; 1 aorist middle ἐπεκαλεσάμην; the Sept. very often for קָרָא;
1. to put a name upon, to surname: τινα(Xenophon, Plato, others), Matthew 10:25G T Tr WH (Rec. ἐκάλεσαν); passive ὁἐπικαλούμενος, he who is surnamed, Luke 22:3 R G L; Acts 10:18; Acts 11:13; Acts 12:12; Acts 15:22 R G; also ὅςἐπικαλεῖται, Acts 10:5, 32; ὁ ἐπικληθείς, Matthew 10:3 (R G); Acts 4:36; Acts 12:25; equivalent to ὅς ἐπεκλήθη, Acts 1:23. Passive with the force of a middle (cf. Winers Grammar, § 38, 3), to permit oneself to be surnamed: Hebrews 11:16; middle with τινα: 1 Peter 1:17 εἰπατέρα ἐπικαλεῖσθε τόν etc. i. e. if ye call (for yourselves) on him as father, i. e. if ye surname him your father.

2. ἐπικαλεῖται τό ὄνομα τίνος ἐπί τινα, after the Hebrew פ עַל פ... שֵׁם נִקְרָא..., "the name of one is named upon some one, i. e. he is called by his name or declared to be dedicated to him" (cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus iii., p. 1232a): Acts 15:17 from Amos 9:12 (the name referred to is the people of God); James 2:7 (the name οἱτοῦ Χριστοῦ).

3. τίνι with the accusative of the object; properly, to call something to one (cf. English to cry out upon (or against) one); "to charge something to one as a crime or reproach; to summon one on any charge, prosecute one for a crime; to blame one for, accuse one of" (Aristophanes pax 663; Thucydides 2, 27; 3, 36; Plato, legg. 6, 761 e.; 7, 809 e.; Dio Cass. 36, 28; 40, 41 and often in the orators (cf. under the word κατηγορέω)): εἰ τῷ οἰκοδεσπότῃ Βηλζεβουλἐπεκάλεσαν (i. e. accused of commerce with Beelzebul, of receiving his help, cf. Matthew 9:34; Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15), πόσῳ μᾶλλον τοῖς ὀικιακοιςαὐτοῦ, Matthew 10:25 L WH marginal reading after Vat. (see 1 above), a reading defended by Rettig in the Studien und Kritiken for 1838, p. 477ff and by Alexander Buttmann (1873) in the same journal for 1860, p. 343, and also in his N. T. Gram. 151 (132); (also by Weiss in Meyer edition 7 at the passage). But this expression (Beelzebul for the help of Beelzebul) is too hard not to be suggestive of the emendation of some ignorant scribe, who took offence because (with the exception of this passage) the enemies of Jesus are nowhere in the Gospels said to have called him by the name of Beelzebul.

4. to call upon (like German anrufen), to invoke; middle, to call upon for oneself,in one's behalf: anyone as a helper, Acts 7:59, where supply τόν κύριον Ἰησοῦν(βοηθόν, Plato, Euthyd., p. 297 c.; Diodorus 5, 79); τινα μάρτυρα, as my witness, 2 Corinthians 1:23 (Plato, legg. 2, 664 c.); as a judge, i. e. to appeal to one, make appeal unto: Καίσαρα, Acts 25:11; Acts 26:32; Acts 28:19; (τόνΣεβαστόν, Acts 25:25); followed by the infinitive passive Acts 25:21 (to be reserved).

5. Hebraistically (like יְהוָה בְּשֵׁם קָרָא to call upon by pronouncing the name of Jehovah, Genesis 4:26; Genesis 12:8; 2 Kings 5:11, etc.; cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus, p. 1231{b} (or his Hebrew Lexicon, under the word קָרָא); an expression finding its explanation in the fact that prayers addressed to God ordinarily began with an invocation of the divine name: Psalm 3:2; Psalm 6:2; Psalm 7:2, etc.) ἐπικαλοῦμαι τό ὄνομα τοῦ κυρίου, I call upon (on my behalf) the name of the Lord, i. e. to invoke, adore, worship, the Lord, i. e. Christ: Acts 2:21 (from Joel 2:32 ()); ; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2; τόν κύριον, Romans 10:12; 2 Timothy 2:22; (often in Greek writings ἐπικαλεῖσθαι τούς Θεούς, as Xenophon, Cyril 7, 1, 35; Plato, Tim., p. 27 c.; Polybius 15, 1, 13).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
appeal unto, call on, invoke
Middle voice from epi and kaleo; to entitle; by implication, to invoke (for aid, worship, testimony, decision, etc.) -- appeal (unto), call (on, upon), surname.
 
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zoidar

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In the early church the age of accountability was accepted and children were in no danger of being lost.

I have looked for quotes to prove what you say is right, but I haven't found any. What I did found were quotes that said that infants are free of sin, but nothing about "age of accountability". If you got quotes from the early church proving your point please post them.

For instance, in your statement above you said that you understood you were doing wrong at the age of 5 --- this is true of all kids; they know when they're doing wrong... However, they don't understand that they're sinning against God. I used to teach our faith and I can assure you that children as old as 8 believe they have never sinned until they're taught what sin is.

It's said in the bible that the law is written in our hearts. We know by nature what is wrong. Even if we don't know we are sinning against God we know we are sinning in our heart and I don't see why such a person shouldn't be held accountable. What makes it sin is not that we know of God, but that we do something we know is wrong, isn't it so?

Augustine of Hippo, in about the 400's, that came up with the idea of Original Sin and our inheriting Adam's sin and being imputed with it at birth that the problem began. It was HIS reasoning that made it absolutely necessary for babies to be baptized as soon as possible because he believed that if they died they would go to hell because of this sin they were born with and sin shall not enter heaven.

That still doesn't prove that the early church believed in age of accountability. If the early church believed that a baby was free from sin, it only shows that it would be until that baby/child sins, not until he/she knows that it's a sin against God.
 
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Please look at the Greek translation of the word “to call upon” epikaleó. Scroll down near the bottom and you can see in the bold letters it’s reference to Romans 10:13 meaning

I call upon (on my behalf) the name of the Lord, i. e. to invoke, adore, worship, the Lord

Now let’s put that into the context of Romans 10:13.

“For “Everyone who calls upon, adores and worships the name of the Lord will be saved.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:13‬

Also notice the term “calls upon” is in the present tense. This implies that the person is still calling upon, adoring, and worshiping the Lord. It doesn’t imply that if someone has stopped calling upon the Lord that they will still be saved. This is a tough one to see because it appears that if anyone has ever called upon the Lord they will be saved but because this idea contradicts other scriptures it cannot be true so we have to examine what exactly is said and see how it can be interpreted in a way that does not contradict the scriptures that say not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will be saved. By this understanding we can conclude that Paul was stating that everyone who currently calls upon the Lord will be saved. That’s the only way that this statement can coincide with other scriptures without contradicting them. The person must still be calling, adoring, and worshipping the Lord to be saved. If they stop doing so they will not be saved.

Bible > Strong's > Greek > 1941
1941. epikaleó
Strong's Concordance
epikaleó: to call upon
Original Word: ἐπικαλέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: epikaleó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-kal-eh'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I call by an additional name, appeal to
Definition: (a) I call (name) by a supplementary (additional, alternative) name, (b) mid: I call upon, appeal to, address.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from epi and kaleó
Definition
to call upon
NASB Translation
address (1), appeal (2), appealed (4), call (7), called (14), calling (1), calls (1).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1941: ἐπικαλέω

ἐπικαλέω, ἐπικαλῶ: 1 aorist ἐπεκαλεσα; (passive and middle, present ἐπικαλοῦμαι); perfect passive ἐπικέκλημαι; pluperfect 3 person singular ἐπεκέκλητο, and with neglect of augment (cf. Winers Grammar, § 12, 5; Buttmann, 33 (29)) ἐπικεκλητο (Acts 26:32Lachmann); 1 aorist passive ἐπεκλήθην; future middle ἐπικαλέσομαι; 1 aorist middle ἐπεκαλεσάμην; the Sept. very often for קָרָא;
1. to put a name upon, to surname: τινα(Xenophon, Plato, others), Matthew 10:25G T Tr WH (Rec. ἐκάλεσαν); passive ὁἐπικαλούμενος, he who is surnamed, Luke 22:3 R G L; Acts 10:18; Acts 11:13; Acts 12:12; Acts 15:22 R G; also ὅςἐπικαλεῖται, Acts 10:5, 32; ὁ ἐπικληθείς, Matthew 10:3 (R G); Acts 4:36; Acts 12:25; equivalent to ὅς ἐπεκλήθη, Acts 1:23. Passive with the force of a middle (cf. Winers Grammar, § 38, 3), to permit oneself to be surnamed: Hebrews 11:16; middle with τινα: 1 Peter 1:17 εἰπατέρα ἐπικαλεῖσθε τόν etc. i. e. if ye call (for yourselves) on him as father, i. e. if ye surname him your father.

2. ἐπικαλεῖται τό ὄνομα τίνος ἐπί τινα, after the Hebrew פ עַל פ... שֵׁם נִקְרָא..., "the name of one is named upon some one, i. e. he is called by his name or declared to be dedicated to him" (cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus iii., p. 1232a): Acts 15:17 from Amos 9:12 (the name referred to is the people of God); James 2:7 (the name οἱτοῦ Χριστοῦ).

3. τίνι with the accusative of the object; properly, to call something to one (cf. English to cry out upon (or against) one); "to charge something to one as a crime or reproach; to summon one on any charge, prosecute one for a crime; to blame one for, accuse one of" (Aristophanes pax 663; Thucydides 2, 27; 3, 36; Plato, legg. 6, 761 e.; 7, 809 e.; Dio Cass. 36, 28; 40, 41 and often in the orators (cf. under the word κατηγορέω)): εἰ τῷ οἰκοδεσπότῃ Βηλζεβουλἐπεκάλεσαν (i. e. accused of commerce with Beelzebul, of receiving his help, cf. Matthew 9:34; Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15), πόσῳ μᾶλλον τοῖς ὀικιακοιςαὐτοῦ, Matthew 10:25 L WH marginal reading after Vat. (see 1 above), a reading defended by Rettig in the Studien und Kritiken for 1838, p. 477ff and by Alexander Buttmann (1873) in the same journal for 1860, p. 343, and also in his N. T. Gram. 151 (132); (also by Weiss in Meyer edition 7 at the passage). But this expression (Beelzebul for the help of Beelzebul) is too hard not to be suggestive of the emendation of some ignorant scribe, who took offence because (with the exception of this passage) the enemies of Jesus are nowhere in the Gospels said to have called him by the name of Beelzebul.

4. to call upon (like German anrufen), to invoke; middle, to call upon for oneself,in one's behalf: anyone as a helper, Acts 7:59, where supply τόν κύριον Ἰησοῦν(βοηθόν, Plato, Euthyd., p. 297 c.; Diodorus 5, 79); τινα μάρτυρα, as my witness, 2 Corinthians 1:23 (Plato, legg. 2, 664 c.); as a judge, i. e. to appeal to one, make appeal unto: Καίσαρα, Acts 25:11; Acts 26:32; Acts 28:19; (τόνΣεβαστόν, Acts 25:25); followed by the infinitive passive Acts 25:21 (to be reserved).

5. Hebraistically (like יְהוָה בְּשֵׁם קָרָא to call upon by pronouncing the name of Jehovah, Genesis 4:26; Genesis 12:8; 2 Kings 5:11, etc.; cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus, p. 1231{b} (or his Hebrew Lexicon, under the word קָרָא); an expression finding its explanation in the fact that prayers addressed to God ordinarily began with an invocation of the divine name: Psalm 3:2; Psalm 6:2; Psalm 7:2, etc.) ἐπικαλοῦμαι τό ὄνομα τοῦ κυρίου, I call upon (on my behalf) the name of the Lord, i. e. to invoke, adore, worship, the Lord, i. e. Christ: Acts 2:21 (from Joel 2:32 ()); ; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2; τόν κύριον, Romans 10:12; 2 Timothy 2:22; (often in Greek writings ἐπικαλεῖσθαι τούς Θεούς, as Xenophon, Cyril 7, 1, 35; Plato, Tim., p. 27 c.; Polybius 15, 1, 13).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
appeal unto, call on, invoke
Middle voice from epi and kaleo; to entitle; by implication, to invoke (for aid, worship, testimony, decision, etc.) -- appeal (unto), call (on, upon), surname.
So your saying that one who has a new heart (ie:saved) can lose the new heart and therefore the heartscry (love) is extinquished? Seems to me that many waters can never quench love. Whenever I have backslide it was never out of His love that a mere turning to Him wouldn't cure.
 
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Doug Melven

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That's right. Initial salvation requires faith alone (Ephesians 2:8). But ultimate salvation requires more than faith alone (Matthew 7:21).
Show from Scripture Ultimate salvation and initial salvation.
And you didn't answer 1 John 4:17
As Jesus is, so are we in this world.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I have looked for quotes to prove what you say is right, but I haven't found any. What I did found were quotes that said that infants are free of sin, but nothing about "age of accountability". If you got quotes from the early church proving your point please post them.

It's said in the bible that the law is written in our hearts. We know by nature what is wrong. Even if we don't know we are sinning against God we know we are sinning in our heart and I don't see why such a person shouldn't be held accountable. What makes it sin is not that we know of God, but that we do something we know is wrong, isn't it so?

That still doesn't prove that the early church believed in age of accountability. If the early church believed that a baby was free from sin, it only shows that it would be until that baby/child sins, not until he/she knows that it's a sin against God.

I can't prove anything to you Z.
Here are some sites where you can learn about this on your own.

Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible? What happens to babies and young children when they die?

What the Bible Says About the "Age of Accountability"

The "Age of Accountability"

Is there an age of accountability in the Bible? What happens to babies that die?
 
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I will check your links. I have searched the net quite a bit, to find info about the belief of the early church. To me it's not enough to believe in it because God is love. We'll see if your links will give me the answer i need.

Christ love,

P
 
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