Changing the Bible Sabbath by presumption alone ?

BobRyan · May 5, 2018

JLB777 said:
If you want to go to a synagogue with unsaved Jews to worship Jesus, Bob, then go for it.

You will likely be the only one.
JLB

And they that heard "believed and were baptized" and continued "every Sabbath" to meet for Gospel preaching in the Synagogue.

Sounds pretty good to me.

If your argument is that Paul made a mistake - you are welcomed to that argument.

Acts 13
42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.

These gentiles keep coming back - Sabbath after Sabbath for "Gospel preaching" and not once getting a sermon in the form " please join us tomorrow for our week-day-1 service"... no not once.

BobRyan · May 5, 2018

JLB777 said:
My question to you is where are the scriptures in the New Testament that instruct us how to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.

My question for you is where is the NT text saying that the scriptures telling us HOW to keep the Bible Sabbath have been deleted??.

Where does the NT say that the Sabbath remains as long as we do not keep it "HOW" God said it is to kept in the actual Sabbath Commandment
-on the seventh day "The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10
- a day of rest Ex 20:8-10
- a day of holy convocation Lev 23:3
- a day to avoid your secular activities Isaiah 58:13

Where is it that the NT says "ok all ten remain as long as you don't keep Sabbath the way God said to keep it in the actual commandment"???

In your case you insist that it goes right down to the very wording of the Commandment that has been "invisibly changed".

Changed from "the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" into "any day you wish is THE Sabbath of the LORD" or "any way you wish is how to keep that 7th day Sabbath holy".

The burden of proof is on those who make such extreme assumptions.

You assume the salient point in your argument when you go to "Assume it is changed or details deleted and start over when reading the Jewish authors of the NT writing about God's Sabbath. So then if they still 'mean it' they must 'repeat it' ".

It would be like saying "find 'do not take God's name in vain' in the book of Titus and if you don't find it then it is up for changes" -- how in the world would inserts of that form be "merely assumed to be true"??.

Question for you: How many times is the term "Sabbath" used in the NT to refer to some day of the week that is NOT the 7th day??

Answer: zero.

The OT specification for observance of the Bible Sabbath spoken by God -
1. The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) Ex 20:10
2. A day of rest - Exodus 20:8-11 - no secular activity Isaiah 8:13
3. A day of "holy convocation" Lev 23:3
4. - a day to avoid your secular activities Isaiah 58:13

You have "proposed" a text saying all TEN commandments remain so long as we do not keep the Sabbath the way that God said to keep it -- in the actual 4th commandment... and in places like Lev 23:3 and Isaiah 58:13. You appear to have hoped such a text would exist - but never show that it actually does.

BobRyan · May 5, 2018

Original Happy Camper said:
Jesus Christ wrote the Ten Commandments with his own finger and spoke them. So why do you call them the law of Moses instead of the Law of GOD?
Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

They are both.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Christ said "Commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God" when it comes to the Ten Commandments.

The TEN Commandments are in the "obey and live" covenant - the "old covenant". Under which all those who are lost -- are bound to that covenant - in both OT and NT.

The TEN Commandments are also in the NEW Covenant "Written on the heart and mind" - and all those under it - are saved -- in both OT. and NT.

OldWiseGuy · May 5, 2018

The old covenant was placed on the backs of Israel. The new covenant is placed in the hearts and minds of the church. The OC laws were an impossible burden as the Israelites hadn't received the Holy Spirit. The spirit of the law is the antithesis of the letter of the law, including the Sabbath command. The letter 'killeth' but the spirit is life. It is only when the law is understood spiritually that it can be 'obeyed' in it's fullness. This includes the Sabbath.

The new covenant isn't just the ability to keep the letter of the law, it's a whole new understanding of the law.

The7thColporteur · May 6, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Jesus, and the Jews and others, kept the OC Sabbath because the Law was still in effect (throughout most of the 'NT' history recorded in the bible). After the destruction of the Temple and the priesthood, the OC was no longer in force, including ritual worship on the Sabbath. Of course the spiritual laws are immutable, but not enforced today by any except conservative Jews.

Many say the Sabbath disappeared at the Cross, and you say it lasted another 40 years? Kinda would like for all these anti-Sabbath of the LORD people to get their story straight, as presently we cannot even find two witnesses who agree on their side in toto about anything. Sounds like the trial of Jesus by night alright ... that 'ol Jewish sabbath', that 'ol' Jewish redeemer' ...

Why would the destruction of the Temple have anything to do with keeping Sabbath?

Can you show me where the Hebrews [and Israelites], Egyptians and mixed multitude who left, needed the Temple in Exodus 16?

Exodus 16:23 KJB - And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Can you show me where Paul needed it when they went out by a river on Sabbath for prayer?

Acts 16:13 KJB - And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

BobRyan · May 6, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
The old covenant was placed on the backs of Israel. The new covenant is placed in the hearts and minds of the church. The OC laws were an impossible burden as the Israelites hadn't received the Holy Spirit

Creative writing - always interesting to read.

Paul points out "only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9
Paul points out "THE Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
And in Hebrews "the GOSPEL was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4:2
1 Cor 10 "they all drank from the same Spiritual ROCK and that ROCK was CHRIST"
Matthew 17 Moses AND Elijah stand IN GLORY with Christ BEFORE the cross

David in his great fall - appeals to God "take NOT Thy Holy Spirit from me" Psalms 51

Your "Two gospel" model does not fit the Bible.

What is more in the OT God said
Is 63:10 Israel grieved God's "Holy Spirit".
Haggai 2:5 "My Holy Spirit abiding IN your midst"
Is 51:7 In their heart was written the Law of God -
Ps 37:31 - "the Law of God IS IN his heart"
Deut 6:6 God's Word "in your heart"

Jeremiah 31 NEW Covenant "I will write My LAW on your heart and mind"

"More Bible - less creative writing" - I always say

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Christ said "Commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God" when it comes to the Ten Commandments.

The TEN Commandments are in the "obey and live" covenant - the "old covenant". Under which all those who are lost -- are bound to that covenant - in both OT and NT.

Exodus 20:6 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "if you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments"

Matthew 19
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?”

And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder; Exodus 20
You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
You shall not steal; Ex 20
You shall not bear false witness; Ex 20
19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18

OldWiseGuy · May 6, 2018

BobRyan said:
Creative writing - always interesting to read.

Creative editing of my post as well.

OldWiseGuy · May 6, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
Many say the Sabbath disappeared at the Cross, and you say it lasted another 40 years? Kinda would like for all these anti-Sabbath of the LORD people to get their story straight, as presently we cannot even find two witnesses who agree on their side in toto about anything. Sounds like the trial of Jesus by night alright ... that 'ol Jewish sabbath', that 'ol' Jewish redeemer' ...

Why would the destruction of the Temple have anything to do with keeping Sabbath?

Can you show me where the Hebrews [and Israelites], Egyptians and mixed multitude who left, needed the Temple in Exodus 16?

Exodus 16:23 KJB - And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Can you show me where Paul needed it when they went out by a river on Sabbath for prayer?

Acts 16:13 KJB - And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

What is your explanation of Mark 2:27

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath":

eleos1954 · May 6, 2018

Alpha.Omega said:
"For if that First Covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the Second" (Hebrews 8:7)

The first covenant was "faulty" because the "ceremonies" can not save a person. Also a man "priest" can not forgive sins ... only God can. It was the "laws of Moses" that were in "fault". Everything done through the ceremonies was pointing to the coming of Messiah ... yet when He came ... they rejected Him and held to the "faulty ceremonial system". Thirdly, the 10 commandments were originally written on tablets of stone .... God wrote them on the hearts of man and there is no excuse.

The "ceremonial/sacrificial" laws were nailed to the cross and were done away with not the moral laws.

The moral law - 10 commandments are everlasting. This is the everlasting covenant. The Jews broke this covenant with God. The 10 commandments depict the very character of who God is. Jesus was/is the embodiment of those laws. He fulfilled the eternal everlasting covenant with God of which the Jews nor anyone can fulfill.

JLB777 · May 6, 2018

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said: ↑
Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath".

"AND those who HEARD - believed and were baptized" - but still meet "every Sabbath" as the only meetings for worship that we see in Acts 18:4 -- "every Sabbath"

BobRyan said: ↑
Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath"

You add - "So what else is new Bob?"

Actually I too am pretty happy with that fact -- if that is what you mean.

There is nothing here where Paul instructs us that God's commandments are now deleted and only Paul's commands are valid --

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

Paul’s message of Jesus Christ was blasphemed by those in the synagogue who gathered on the Sabbath to hear the Old Testament.

Paul then went to the Gentiles with the message of Jesus Christ.

He began to have meetings in the house of Justus.

Do you meet in houses or a synagogue Bob?

Can you point out in the following verse where Paul commands them to gather in. Church building or a synagogue on the Sabbath?

7 And he departed from there and entered the house of a certain man named Justus, one who worshiped God, whose house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized. 9 Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city.” 11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Acts 18:4-11

Please show me the verse where Paul instructs the Church to gather in a Building or a house on the Sabbath to worship Jesus.

Please show me any verse in Acts 18 where Paul commanded the believers to gather on the Sabbath, and have specific instructions who to observe the Sabbath.

JLB

BobRyan · May 6, 2018

BobRyan said:
By contrast - the actual Bible.

Matthew 19 Christ quoting from the TEN
Eph 6:2 - Paul quoting from the TEN
Romans 13 - Paul quoting from the TEN
James 2 - James quoting from the TEN
Romans 7 - Paul quoting from the TEN
Mark 7:6-13 - Christ quoting from the TEN

BobRyan said: ↑
Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath".

JLB777 said:
Every Sabbath UNSAVED Jews and Gentiles met on the Sabbath.

So what else is new Bob?

"AND those who HEARD - believed and were baptized" - but still meet "every Sabbath" as the only meetings for worship that we see in Acts 18:4 -- "every Sabbath"

BobRyan said: ↑
Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath"

You add - "So what else is new Bob?"

Actually I too am pretty happy with that fact -- if that is what you mean.

JLB777 said:
There is nothing what so ever here that shows us Paul commanding the Church to gather on the Sabbath

There is nothing here where Paul instructs us that God's commandments are now deleted and only Paul's commands are valid --

JLB777 said:
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

Agreed.

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7 And he departed from there and entered the house of a certain man named Justus, one who worshiped God, whose house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

So then that "Every Sabbath" scenario included believers.

.

Paul’s message of Jesus Christ was opposed by some - but not all for even "the ruler of the synagogue believed"

And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

Gentiles were in the synagogue as we see in Acts 13 and Acts 18

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Do you meet in houses or a synagogue Bob?

The early Christian church was a "sect of judaism" called "the way" and Paul freely admits it. They met in Synagogues in Acts 13, in Acts 17:4-5 in Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath".

And the fact that "Moses is preached every Sabbath in the Synagogues" is a key part of the "solution" in Acts 15.

The point remains.

Can you point out in the following verse where Paul commands them to gather on every week-day-1 or where those "who believed then started to gather on week-day-1"?

We all know ... you cannot.

Please show me the verse where Paul instructs the Church to gather in a Building or a house on every week-day-1 to worship Jesus.

we all know - you have not one such text

Please show me any verse in Acts 18 where Paul commanded the believers to that heard "and believed" and "were baptized" to stop meeting on Sabbath and start meeting on week-day-1.

We all know you have no such text.

And as for you accepting all TEN of the TEN Commandments being applicable to Christians - please show me one text in the NT that says "keep Sabbath but not the way God said to keep it in the actual Sabbath commandment".

We all know you have no such text.

I believe they met "Every Sabbath" and I actually HAVE an "every Sabbath" text.

You believe they met every week-day-1 for gospel preaching and worship - and have not even one such text.

The point remains.

OldWiseGuy · May 6, 2018

The NT records that Christians eventually met in private homes, probably because of Christ's gospel message being attacked by the Levites. That they met on the Sabbath day was out of tradition (habit), not to keep the OC Sabbath rituals, which included being spoon fed the old covenant Law according to the Levites. They had no reason to meet on another day as the Sabbath day was the customary day of worship.

Jesus admitted that the Pharisees "sat in Moses seat", all the while violating the Sabbath law (according to the Pharisees).

Rubiks · May 6, 2018

BobRyan, what is it with your obsession with the Sabbath? Do you also believe Christians must also follow the dietary laws of the Old Testament

Colossians 2:15-21 (NRSV) said:
Therefore do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink or of observing festivals, new moons, or sabbaths. 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Do not let anyone disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, dwelling on visions,puffed up without cause by a human way of thinking,19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows with a growth that is from God.

Warnings against False Teachers
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations, 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”? 22 All these regulations refer to things that perish with use; they are simply human commands and teachings.

/thread

The7thColporteur · May 6, 2018

BobRyan said:
And they that heard "believed and were baptized" and continued "every Sabbath" to meet for Gospel preaching in the Synagogue.

Sounds pretty good to me.

If your argument is that Paul made a mistake - you are welcomed to that argument.

Acts 13
42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.

These gentiles keep coming back - Sabbath after Sabbath for "Gospel preaching" and not once getting a sermon in the form " please join us tomorrow for our week-day-1 service"... no not once.

I especially like this part:

Acts 13:43 KJB - Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Keeping the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD, while "continu[ing] in the grace of God". Under grace ...

The7thColporteur · May 6, 2018

Rubiks said:
... Do you also believe Christians must also follow the dietary laws of the Old Testament

God's laws of Health do not change at Calvary, as they are from the beginning, Genesis 1:29-30 KJB. They are cited in the texts of Matthew to Revelation, see Acts 15 for instance, citing from Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy; see also 1 Corinthians 10:30; see also 1 Timothy 4:3 [in connection with Genesis 1:29-30 KJB], etc.

Isaiah 66:17 KJB - They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

3 John 1:2 KJB - Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

See 1 Corinthians 10, linked with Psalms 78, linked with Numbers 11 KJB. See 1 Peter 1:15-16, linked to Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy "be ye holy".

Adam/Eve lost the Garden through diet. Jesus fought over diet in the wildneress and was victorious. Appetite is connected with obedience/sin, through the mind/gut connection.

1 Corinthians 6:19 KJB - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

What was allowed in the Temple?

Remember the days of Noah/Noe and Lot, eating and drinking what they wanted, and buying and selling on the day they shouldn't? Marrying whom they would, etc?

So shall it be now ...

First attacking marriage the first twin institution of Eden ...

then follows the attacking the Sabbath laws [uplifting Sunday, then degrading Sabbath, in two stages], the second twin of Eden ...

The first is already born ... the second comes soon.

The7thColporteur · May 7, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
What is your explanation of Mark 2:27

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath":

I apologize, I meant to get back to this sooner, and almost didn't. This was previously addressed here - COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word and moreso again here - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

I will cite the primary relevant part, but would ask that you consider, in combination both posts cited previously.

"...So, when God "made" the sabbath, was it "made" for "the man" Adam [and thus all humanity in him]?

I ask, because Jesus said this:

Mark 2:27 KJB - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mark 2:27 GNT TR - και ελεγεν αυτοις το σαββατον δια τον ανθρωπον εγενετο ουχ ο ανθρωπος δια το σαββατον

Literally, '... the sabbath [of the LORD [JEHOVAH], the 7th day, context] was made/created for the man ...'

The only "the [definite article] man" [Hebrew: 'ha adam'] [singular] that was around when things were "made" [thus at Genesis], is "Adam" [and all humanity in him]. This agrees with Genesis 2:7, which speaks of "the Adam":

Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 HOT - וייצר יהוה אלהים את־האדם עפר מן־האדמה ויפח באפיו נשׁמת חיים ויהי האדם לנפשׁ חיה׃

Genesis 2:7 HOT Translit. - waYiytzer y'hwäh élohiym et-häädäm äfär min-häádämäh waYiPach B'aPäyw nish'mat chaYiym way'hiy häädäm l'nefesh chaYäh

Genesis 2:7 LXX* (so-called) - καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.

Thus, would you agree that the LORD [JEHOVAH] God [Elohiym] "made" "the seventh day" "the sabbath of the LORD [JEHOVAH] thy God [Elohiym]" "for" Adam, "the man", and that God set the example for "the man" the first time by having "rested" in it way back then, and then blessed and hallowed it "for" "the man" - Adam; for God having "made" it "for" "the man" as a holy blessing and delight? ..."

And speaking of the Second/Last Adam, "the man" Christ Jesus, "the Jew":

"... Jesus is "the Jew", even "the man"."

JLB777 · May 7, 2018

BobRyan said:
There is nothing here where Paul instructs us that God's commandments are now deleted and only Paul's commands are valid --

Ok so make sure you obey the Sabbath requirements Bob.

Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

How many people have you put to death in obeying the Sabbath requirements?

JLB

The7thColporteur · May 7, 2018

JLB777 said:
Ok so make sure you obey the Sabbath requirements Bob.

Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

How many people have you put to death in obeying the Sabbath requirements?

JLB

Notice in Numbers 15:35, we have to have the "camp" on earth:

Numbers 15:35 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without [outside of] the camp.

Presently our "camp" [city] is not on earth:

Hebrews 13:14 KJB - For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

It will be eventually:

Revelation 20:9 KJB - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

OldWiseGuy · May 7, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
I apologize, I meant to get back to this sooner, and almost didn't. This was previously addressed here - COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word and moreso again here - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

I will cite the primary relevant part, but would ask that you consider, in combination both posts cited previously.

"...So, when God "made" the sabbath, was it "made" for "the man" Adam [and thus all humanity in him]?

I ask, because Jesus said this:

Mark 2:27 KJB - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mark 2:27 GNT TR - και ελεγεν αυτοις το σαββατον δια τον ανθρωπον εγενετο ουχ ο ανθρωπος δια το σαββατον

Literally, '... the sabbath [of the LORD [JEHOVAH], the 7th day, context] was made/created for the man ...'

The only "the [definite article] man" [Hebrew: 'ha adam'] [singular] that was around when things were "made" [thus at Genesis], is "Adam" [and all humanity in him]. This agrees with Genesis 2:7, which speaks of "the Adam":

Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 HOT - וייצר יהוה אלהים את־האדם עפר מן־האדמה ויפח באפיו נשׁמת חיים ויהי האדם לנפשׁ חיה׃

Genesis 2:7 HOT Translit. - waYiytzer y'hwäh élohiym et-häädäm äfär min-häádämäh waYiPach B'aPäyw nish'mat chaYiym way'hiy häädäm l'nefesh chaYäh

Genesis 2:7 LXX* (so-called) - καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.

Thus, would you agree that the LORD [JEHOVAH] God [Elohiym] "made" "the seventh day" "the sabbath of the LORD [JEHOVAH] thy God [Elohiym]" "for" Adam, "the man", and that God set the example for "the man" the first time by having "rested" in it way back then, and then blessed and hallowed it "for" "the man" - Adam; for God having "made" it "for" "the man" as a holy blessing and delight? ..."
And speaking of the Second/Last Adam, "the man" Christ Jesus, "the Jew":

"... Jesus is "the Jew", even "the man"."

It is my understanding that Jesus was responding to the arbitrary restrictions placed on the people by the Pharisees regarding the Sabbath. I was in a Sabbath-keeping church for many years. We used to call ourselves "the church of the clock watchers."

The7thColporteur · May 7, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
It is my understanding that Jesus was responding to the arbitrary restrictions placed on the people by the Pharisees regarding the Sabbath.

Yes. That is already addressed here:

"... Jesus was not saying that the Priests were actually breaking God's Law. He was responding to pharisees about their misunderstanding of what it meant to break Sabbath. He was using their idea of 'violation', see verse 2.

Jesus said "guiltless", "... ye would not have condemned the guiltless." and that before he gave them their example [as he refers back to their original condemnation]. The pharisees had "condemned" based upon their tradition, not upon a Thus saith the LORD. Jesus then uses their definition of 'violation' and shows them from the scripture that their idea of violation is not actually transgression, thus absolutely innocent. ..."

Why then did Jesus refer to "the law" ["shows them from scripture", "have ye not read"; notice, given in the negative]? To show the Pharisees that their definition of "violation" ["not lawful" vs 2] was not actually "violation" ["guiltless" vs 7] since their traditions were negating the scriptures, commandments of God, and the disciples were doing nothing against scripture, though the Pharisees accused based upon their tradition, saying of men. Jesus did not go to "the law" to show that the Sabbath could be violated by His people, but went to the "it is written" to demonstrate the Pharisees error in judgment about what a "violation" on Sabbath was. The disciples were innocent, guiltless, and the Pharisees were the wrongfully informed accusers, and Jesus showed them this from the scripture. Their standard of judgment/accusation was not founded upon thus saith the Lord.

I have cited evidence, from vs 2 that Jesus was doing this.

... vs 5 is contextually linked to vs 2. ... as the Pharisees apriori about sabbath violation was in error ..." - The Sabbth-day Law Can Be Violated

Thus in so saying, my previous point is not negated, but further magnified. Jesus, in responding to the Pharisees, draws attention not merely to David, but all the way back to Genesis and Adam, the man, as Jesus had done on the occasion about the question on marriage:

Matthew 19:4 KJB - And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Mark 10:6 KJB - But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

Again, that is a reference to Adam and Eve, just as in the Sabbath commandment. They are the twin institutions of Eden.

Since Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath [from Genesis], He ought to know how it is to be kept, apart from Pharisaical manglings. In a word, Jesus sets the precious Jewel of the 4th Commandment back into its proper setting.

OldWiseGuy said:
... I was in a Sabbath-keeping church for many years. We used to call ourselves "the church of the clock watchers."

Interesting. What kind of Sabbath-keeping church? Why the name, was it based in a scriptural text?

Changing the Bible Sabbath by presumption alone ?

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