Paul preached easy believism

Bobber

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Jesus never taught the Pagan atonment doctrine, the "good news" that people herd from Jesus wasn't that God would forgive them after God saw his blameless Son die on the cross; theoretical salvation. In the original gospel salvation was real, a concious change of heart by faith and the responsibility that comes with it. Killing Jesus was a catistrophic sin for the Jews who rejected his Gospel.
Can't agree and your statement claiming "atonement" was some type of pagan error, doesn't hold water. All throughout the Old Testament we read where God had set up the Priesthood and what they were to do when it came to the sacrificing of bulls and goats, lambs or pigeons...the sacrificing of blood. Even Mary and Joseph offered up an atonement sacrifice. Luke 2:24

I mean you say Jesus and his Disciples preached one message but they rejected Paul's message of atonement through Jesus blood and substitution. How is it therefore that Peter declares what Paul preached as "scripture"? 2 Peter 3:16 And if Peter wasn't in agreement with atonement of sins message by Jesus blood how is it that Peter states in 1 Peter 1:19,
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


Paul unwittingly overwealmed the movement with his own gospel. The apostles were imperfect men as you pointed out, a few followed Paul, other apostles fell out with Pauls version.
I won't deny that Paul's impact and his understanding greatly effected the status quo. It did...but you're suggesting he had led the church away in error and there was nothing much less of the truth of what you'd consider the true gospel. Funny how Jesus himself therefore didn't take measures to correct it. Do we see anywhere where the Holy Spirit gave any visions, dreams or revelations to pull the church back from believing Paul?

Do we see anywhere where Peter, James and John rebuke Paul as some heretic? No...they received him as a brother. Now yes there was the issue of circumcision that they had struggles with but they even had a meeting in regard to it and worked it out. But nothing of the main Apostles calling him a heretic or someone in great error. That seems to be what you're suggesting Paul was.
 
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Micah888

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Jesus never taught the Pagan atonment doctrine, the "good news" that people herd from Jesus wasn't that God would forgive them after God saw his blameless Son die on the cross
Where did you come up with this idea of "pagan atonement doctrine"? The atoning work of Christ on the cross is central to the Gospel. His death, burial, and resurrection are central to the Gospel. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

And [Jesus] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. (Luke 24:46-48).
 
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GodsGrace101

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Yes, but we have posters here who are declaring that it is no longer necessary to keep the commandments of God, that we are no longer required to obey, and all this had come about AFTER the resurrection--as if God can now tolerate not being obeyed.[/QUOTE]
Just to let you know, there are 2 false "gospels" being propagated among the churches. One is legalistic and human works oriented, the other is antinomian and ungodly in nature. It has been that way since the beginning, as some of the NT epistles were written to address those false ideas. It's still that way today. I commend you for your objections to some of the wild and unbiblical statements written in this thread. You're not alone, as many of us are with you on this.
TD:)[/QUOTE]
Hi TD
This is good to hear.
Lucky for me, I've attended good churches.
Easy believism and hyper grace are not biblical ideas as all the verses we post demonstrate.

Killing ourselves with works when Jesus said His yoke is easy is also wrong.

We do what we can. We can't do more. But try we must, and obey we must. Those that say Jesus "fulfilled" the law and we need do nothing, do NOT understand what fulfill means.

This is my motto:
You do your best
Jesus does the rest
 
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GodsGrace101

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I guess Paul should have preached Difficult Beliefism or, more accurately, Impossible Beliefism. The lengths some go to nullify the grace of God is endless.
God's grace is never nullified - it comes from Him and it cannot be stopped.

Do you think that because we love God and He loves us we should not obey Him?
 
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1 Timothy 4:1

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What's difference between easy believism and hard believism ? Is there such thing like easy and hard believism ?

Do you think that person who is crying /sweating while accepting Christ belong to group called "hard believer " and person who is just happy after hearing these good news "easy believer" ?
Is that hard/easy believing depending on our reaction to the gospel or do you try to make believing a work which is contradicting itself ?
 
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Colter

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Where did you come up with this idea of "pagan atonement doctrine"? The atoning work of Christ on the cross is central to the Gospel. His death, burial, and resurrection are central to the Gospel. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

And [Jesus] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. (Luke 24:46-48).


THE atoneing death on the cross is central to “Paul’s” gospel, not the gospel that Jesus preached to the Jews, the vary same gospel that they rejected and killed him for!

I don’t think your quote means what you assume it means. Jesus spent his life on the cross of human experience, death or translation is the final requirement for us all. The Father required the Son to pass through everything man is called to experience.

In the positive religion of Jesus the “good news” was salvation by faith, mercy not sacrifice. After the cross a different, negative “good news” was preached about Jesus, that we were supposed to kill him as a sacrifice!
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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John said it best:

"You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:5-10)

Pay attention to the logic of John's communication of the relationship between our salvation and works. Notice that in the sections I highlighted in italics we are not told that we can not continue to sin because we will lose our salvation, but because we have been born of God. As he unequivocally explicates, it is our new birth, our new nature, that precludes the possibility of us continuing in an unbroken pattern of sin. So the one who declares that a saved person must repent is not preaching against the Gospel, but the true Gospel, except a reverse logic to that of the detractor of repentance: Salvation does not result from works, but works result from salvation.

Even the famous Ephesians 2:8-9 naturally is more complete when you finish the verses, providing full context:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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THE atoneing death on the cross is central to “Paul’s” gospel, not the gospel that Jesus preached to the Jews, the vary same gospel that they rejected and killed him for!

I don’t think your quote means what you assume it means. Jesus spent his life on the cross of human experience, death or translation is the final requirement for us all. The Father required the Son to pass through everything man is called to experience.

In the positive religion of Jesus the “good news” was salvation by faith, mercy not sacrifice. After the cross a different, negative “good news” was preached about Jesus, that we were supposed to kill him as a sacrifice!

"And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again." (Mark 8:31)

"saying, 'The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.'" (Luke 9:22)

"And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, 'Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.' And they remembered his words." (Luke 24:5-8)

Et al.
 
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Colter

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Can't agree and your statement claiming "atonement" was some type of pagan error, doesn't hold water. All throughout the Old Testament we read where God had set up the Priesthood and what they were to do when it came to the sacrificing of bulls and goats, lambs or pigeons...the sacrificing of blood. Even Mary and Joseph offered up an atonement sacrifice. Luke 2:24

I mean you say Jesus and his Disciples preached one message but they rejected Paul's message of atonement through Jesus blood and substitution. How is it therefore that Peter declares what Paul preached as "scripture"? 2 Peter 3:16 And if Peter wasn't in agreement with atonement of sins message by Jesus blood how is it that Peter states in 1 Peter 1:19,
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


I won't deny that Paul's impact and his understanding greatly effected the status quo. It did...but you're suggesting he had led the church away in error and there was nothing much less of the truth of what you'd consider the true gospel. Funny how Jesus himself therefore didn't take measures to correct it. Do we see anywhere where the Holy Spirit gave any visions, dreams or revelations to pull the church back from believing Paul?

Do we see anywhere where Peter, James and John rebuke Paul as some heretic? No...they received him as a brother. Now yes there was the issue of circumcision that they had struggles with but they even had a meeting in regard to it and worked it out. But nothing of the main Apostles calling him a heretic or someone in great error. That seems to be what you're suggesting Paul was.

For those who accepted the original gospel of Jesus, repentance, a change of heart and behavior, salvation by faith and the responsibility that goes with it going forward, the blood of Christ wasn't needed. Atonement and blood sacrifice is an "old idea" imported into the Jesus movement by sacrifice minded Jews. Man just has a difficult time comprehending something for nothing (Fatherly Love), to be forgiven by Love, to experience forgiveness by forgiving others without any birds or bunnies being killed in exchange. That's why the compromise, short cut atonement gospel was "appealing" to people who were already somewhat familiar with the idea but had never been taught the more rigorous Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven by Jesus.

BTW, Peter began preaching the resurrected Christ on the day of Pentecost. The death and resurrection was the most spectacular, most recent miracle of the Jesus story. So naturally that's what Peter felt inspired to focus on. The old ways were soon forgotten about in light of the spectacular events and resulting human speculation about the meaning of those events.


The sacrificial system of the Old Testament ,set up by holy men, was a Pagan ideology, it evolved as Judaism evolved. ALL religions around the world have had similar sacrificial components. Animal sacrifice and genital mutilation are substitutes for earlier forms of sacrifice such as human sacrifice, child sacrifice. etc.

Jesus taught a change of heart rather than mere rituals and traditions. The religious authorities didn't like that any more than their ancestors in the priesthood like Isaiah excoriation of the whole insincere sacrificial system.
Isaiah 1


1The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

A Rebellious Nation
2 Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth!
For the Lord has spoken:
“I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows its master,
the donkey its owner’s manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

4 Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.

5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with olive oil.

7 Your country is desolate,
your cities burned with fire;
your fields are being stripped by foreigners
right before you,
laid waste as when overthrown by strangers.
8 Daughter Zion is left
like a shelter in a vineyard,
like a hut in a cucumber field,
like a city under siege.
9 Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the instruction of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.

Your hands are full of blood!

16 Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong.
17 Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.[a]
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.

18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

21 See how the faithful city
has become a prostitute!
She once was full of justice;
righteousness used to dwell in her—
but now murderers!
22 Your silver has become dross,
your choice wine is diluted with water.
23 Your rulers are rebels,
partners with thieves;
they all love bribes
and chase after gifts.
They do not defend the cause of the fatherless;
the widow’s case does not come before them.

24 Therefore the Lord, the Lord Almighty,
the Mighty One of Israel, declares:
“Ah! I will vent my wrath on my foes
and avenge myself on my enemies.
25 I will turn my hand against you;[b]
I will thoroughly purge away your dross
and remove all your impurities.
26 I will restore your leaders as in days of old,
your rulers as at the beginning.
Afterward you will be called
the City of Righteousness,
the Faithful City.”

27 Zion will be delivered with justice,
her penitent ones with righteousness.
28 But rebels and sinners will both be broken,
and those who forsake the Lord will perish.

29 “You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks
in which you have delighted;
you will be disgraced because of the gardens
that you have chosen.
30 You will be like an oak with fading leaves,
like a garden without water.
31 The mighty man will become tinder
and his work a spark;
both will burn together,
with no one to quench the fire.”
 
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Colter

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"And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again." (Mark 8:31)

"saying, 'The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.'" (Luke 9:22)

"And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, 'Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.' And they remembered his words." (Luke 24:5-8)

Et al.
True, but we assume that was to bring forth Gods forgiveness when Jesus had already reemphasized that repentance, a change of heart and sincere faith is what saves.
 
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GodsGrace101

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The Gospel has not been properly communicated to a person who thinks after hearing it that they may be saved without any resulting change to their living. However, it is not the doing of good deeds after salvation that maintains a person's salvation. Good deeds are merely the reflection of an inward change, they are the natural manifestation of genuine salvation not the means of it. To fail to make this distinction leads quickly to legalism and works-salvation. Easy-believism is unbiblical but so is the opposite extreme that makes the believer's works necessary to their redemption and adoption into God's family.

Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




??? Was Paul not inspired by the Holy Spirit, by God, to write and teach the things he did? Yes, he was (Galatians 1:11-12; 2:7-9; Ephesians 3:1-8; Philippians 6:16-18; 1 Thessalonians 2:1-4; 2:13; 4:1-2; 4:15; 2 Peter 3:15-16) Is Jesus not God? Yes, he is. Can we not then say that Jesus, through Paul, wrote the things Paul contributed to the New Testament? Yes, we can. There is, then, no division one should be making between Paul's epistles and the words of Christ recorded in the Gospels. They have the same ultimate Author and so ought to be held on par with each other. When the words of Paul seem to conflict with the words of Jesus, it is up to us to discern how to synthesize Christ's and Paul's words, not put them in contradiction to one another and so resort to a hierarchy of Scripture in order to make sense of them. The Bible is all God's word; there is no lesser or greater Scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Hi Aiki
This will be a short post because I agree with everything you've said. There is such a fine line though...

I don't know anyone on any forum that believes you have to do works to become saved, which is your statement in the above highlighted in brown. Works will never save us. Jesus Himself said we must be born from above IN ORDER to do His works, which could be anything -- from becoming a missionary to cooking a loving meal for our family.

The fine line comes in where I've highlighted the above statement of yours in blue. Jesus DID come to set up God's Kingdom here on earth, John 3:3 and John 3:5.

This is a real Kingdom. Once we're in the Kingdom, we must also follow the rules Jesus gave us to remain as a good citizen of that Kingdom or we will become as salt that has lost its flavor. Mathew 5:13.

I believe we're saying the same thing. As I've said before, maybe on this thread:
We do our best
Jesus does the rest.
 
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lesliedellow

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“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
(Galatians 5:19-23)
 
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GodsGrace101

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In the original gospel of the Kingdom, that Jesus instructed the apostles to carry to the 4 corners of the earth, salvation was secured by faith in the Father. That was the religion of Jesus. Jesus never taught the Pagan atonment doctrine, the "good news" that people herd from Jesus wasn't that God would forgive them after God saw his blameless Son die on the cross; theoretical salvation. In the original gospel salvation was real, a concious change of heart by faith and the responsibility that comes with it. Killing Jesus was a catistrophic sin for the Jews who rejected his Gospel.

After Jesus left, the gospel changed, a sincere Paul unwittingly overwealmed the movement with his own gospel. The apostles were imperfect men as you pointed out, a few followed Paul, other apostles fell out with Pauls version. They stayed true and disappeared from history.

We will eventually return to the Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven.
I'm slower than most here, but I'm interested in what you're saying...

1. If you don't believe in the atonement type of sacrifice, which type DO you believe in?

2. HOW did the gospel change with Paul?
Paul explained the gospel to his Jewish brothers, but I don't really see a difference between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught.
 
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GodsGrace101

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What's difference between easy believism and hard believism ? Is there such thing like easy and hard believism ?

Do you think that person who is crying /sweating while accepting Christ belong to group called "hard believer " and person who is just happy after hearing these good news "easy believer" ?
Is that hard/easy believing depending on our reaction to the gospel or do you try to make believing a work which is contradicting itself ?
Hi 1T
I'm not sure you understand what easy believism means...
Everyone should be VERY happy after accepting Jesus as their Savior.

Easy believism just means that some teach that once we're saved, it's not necessary to do anything more and that Jesus will save us no matter what.

This is wrong. God has always required obedience and He still does.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Hi 1T
I'm not sure you understand what easy believism means...
Everyone should be VERY happy after accepting Jesus as their Savior.

Easy believism just means that some teach that once we're saved, it's not necessary to do anything more and that Jesus will save us no matter what.

This is wrong. God has always required obedience and He still does.
Obedience in yielding to the Holy Spirit is what the New Covenant is about. That isn't outer acts.
 
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Colter

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I'm slower than most here, but I'm interested in what you're saying...

1. If you don't believe in the atonement type of sacrifice, which type DO you believe in?

2. HOW did the gospel change with Paul?
Paul explained the gospel to his Jewish brothers, but I don't really see a difference between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught.

In the original gospel, Jesus taught salvation by faith and the ongoing, transformative responsibility that comes with living the faith life. The "Good news" of the gospel of the kingdom was that we are all sons and daughters of a personal God who is our Living, forgiving Father. Doing the will of our Father is central to the life of the believer in the religion OF Jesus. "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". Self forgetfulness and joyful service to others is the way of the spirit born new life in the kingdom. The Kingdom is comprised of ALL who by faith realize sonship with God and the brotherhood of ALL mankind.

In the original gospel, our Father forgives long before the repentant child ever seriously thinks to ask for it because God is a Loving, forgiving Father, not a theology lawyer! God the Father is delighted that the prodigal Son or Daughter returns home, in fact he comes out looking for us.

Paul's gospel is about ---->Jesus, its the theory that God was incapable of forgiveness until he saw his blameless Son dyeing on the cross. Theoretical salvation is an assault upon the free-willness of the Father, that he couldn't forgive man until someone almost equal to himself died as a sufficient sacrifice or substitute.

The atonement doctrine is rooted in self-centeredness. In Jesus' gospel self forgetfulness and service to others are the natural fruits of son-ship with God. In the Gospel of the Kingdom one doesn't need to be preoccupied with salvation.
 
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Colter

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If the Israelites would have accepted the Gospel of the incarnate Son, they would be teaching it today from the Temple Mount. Jesus would have simply laid down his life and returned to his place on high.

* It certainly wasn't the will of the Son or the Father that the Jews reject what Jesus tried to save them with! They paid a heavy price for finally breaking the covenant! Not ONE stone was left on top of another from the 2nd Temple!

I was on the Temple Mount last month during Passover thinking about what Jesus said would happen for rejecting him. Not one block left on another from the Temple, in fact its just incredible to see a mosque in the spot that's been there fro roughly 1600 years!View media item 59061
 
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GodsGrace101

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Obedience in yielding to the Holy Spirit is what the New Covenant is about. That isn't outer acts.
What is it??
Baptism is an outer act.
It's an external expression of an inner change.

So what is obedience?
Can an unsaved person obey God?
Should a saved person obey God?
 
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What is it??
Baptism is an outer act.
It's an external expression of an inner change.

So what is obedience?
Can an unsaved person obey God?
Should a saved person obey God?
The symbolism of marriage isn't adequate any more than baptism to express the full meaning in God's eyes. An unsaved person going for the what-used-to-be respectabilty of the status of a Christian baptism is no more saved than a man relying on the blood of his wife to save him.
 
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