Praying to Saints

narnia59 · May 4, 2018

sunlover1 said:
Angels are called ministering spirits sent to serve those who'll be heirs to salvation.
They're directly involved in our lives even now.
I have no idea how that works.

But the question isn't if they can or "can't be made aware of them".
God can do whatever He likes to do. indeed.

Your original question was if those who are in heaven can hear thousands of prayers at once, wouldn't that make them omniscient was it not? I'm simply pointing out that the angels are capable of knowing anytime a sinner on earth repents, yet we know they are not omniscient. We don't have to know how that works to know that it is possible.

sunlover1 said:
But since He told us to pray "to the Father", and not pray "to our friends dead or alive
I could say that we can pray to angels. I mean.. why not?

Catholics invoke the intercession of the angels as well, and in the book of Revelation we see them offering these prayers to God on our behalf (Rev 5:8, Rev 8:3-4).

Historically the word to pray has not been limited to God but simply means a request. This is why in the KJV version of the Bible you see 'pray' used more than twice as often as in more modern translations. A really good example of this is in Acts 16:9, which says "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." This not only shows 'praying him' used in the more historical concept of the word, it demonstrates that there is a 'spiritual hearing' that is not confined to physical time and space.

sunlover1 said:
I say this with all respect, I go by Scripture, not by the opinions of a good guy.

You never read Bible commentaries or listen to sermons either?

sunlover1 said:
Indeed.
But THEIR job isn't to be sent as ministering spirits to us.
Or we'd have been told.

We are told that they 'surround us' in Hebrews 12:1. You cannot surround someone without having some awareness of them.

And they are not sent to us, we go to them. Hebrews 12 compares how the Hebrew people approached God (a mountain that could not be touched) with how we as Christians approach God. And in that comparison, we are told that we come to the heavenly Jerusalem. Not that we will someday come, but that we have already come. As Hebrews 4:16 says, we draw near to the throne of grace with confidence.

And Hebrews 12:22-24 tells us that "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel."

Anytime you approach the throne of grace in prayer, you are in their presence whether you choose to recognize they are there or not. The body of Christ is not divided into two parts. And the 'eye cannot say to the hand -- I don't need you' (1 Cor 12:20).

Episaw · May 4, 2018

paul becke said:
Hey ! And you cut out the tampering with the ball ! I meant to tell you that before !

For 'common sense' read 'wisdom' or 'elementary reason'.

Sorry about that. I was "bowled over" by the comment.

The nine gifts of the Spirit are just that. Man has no input into them. I will give you an example. I was speaking at a FGBIF breakfast and when I offered prayer, the Lord said I was not to ask what they wanted prayer for, I was to get discernment from the Holy Spirit. I took the hands of the first couple and the Holy Spirit said "incest", so that is what I prayed for. After praying the wife said she had been raped by her grandfather.

No wisdom or elementary reasoning involved.

Micah888 · May 4, 2018

sunlover1 said:
We need prayer, but where do we get the idea we can talk to those who have died and gone to heaven?

It is just another man-made concept. When Moses and Elijah appeared at the Transfiguration of Christ, the three apostles were specifically told by the Father to disregard them, and focus on Christ -- "This is my beloved Son. Hear ye Him".

Later on, we do not hear about them praying to Moses and Elijah. If any saints should have been prayed to, it was these two outstanding prophets. There is nary a hint in the OT that anyone prayed to any OT saint for any reason. They all knew that the only one to whom prayers may be addressed are God Himself. So the OT and NT saints in Heaven must be totally embarrassed that anyone on earth is addressing them.

thecolorsblend · May 5, 2018

sunlover1 said:
But since He told us to pray "to the Father", and not pray "to our friends dead or alive
I could say that we can pray to angels. I mean.. why not?

There are prayers which one can offer to angels.

https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/angel2.htm (Prayer to Guardian Angel)

EWTN Novena Page (Saint Michael The Archangel)

sunlover1 said:
I say this with all respect, I go by Scripture, not by the opinions of a good guy.

Your post hits upon issues which I know I and others have discussed with you in the past. For Catholics, the presence or absence of a given idea, practice or doctrine from sacred scripture really is a non-issue. If something can be adduced from the scriptures, great. But if they can't, that's no reflection on their value and validity.

For a lot of Protestants, that can be a deal-breaker. But it isn't for us. The issue, as I see it, really isn't whether or not you agree with that way of thinking. The only thing that matters is that WE agree with it. We don't believe in sola scriptura.

The Catholic understanding of Our Lady, for example, comes in part from the reality that God the Father sent her as His messenger time and time again: Lourdes, Guadalupe, Fatima and other occasions as well. During those apparitions, Our Lady disclosed truths from the Lord that weren't known during Our Lord's earthly ministry and which aren't contained in scripture. Her messages were accompanied by miracles, in particular the Lourdes miraculous healings which continue to this day.

Given that miracles of healing cannot possibly originate from Satan, the recorded miracles which accompanied her messages should be understood as God vouching for the truths she has disclosed just as Our Lord had the power to perform signs, wonders and miracles to demonstrate that His message came from God.

Again, Protestants are free to accept or reject these ideas. By all means, take them with as many grains of salt as you see fit. Believe whatever you want. But the relevant issue is that Catholics DO believe these things. Furthermore, we have good reason for doing so.

I find the simplistic "Just go by the scriptures, man" approach reductive inasmuch as it dismisses the probability that the fullness of God's message isn't exclusively contained in sacred scripture, that God would have more to say to man as history unfolds.

Wordkeeper · May 6, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
There are prayers which one can offer to angels.

https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/angel2.htm (Prayer to Guardian Angel)

EWTN Novena Page (Saint Michael The Archangel)

Your post hits upon issues which I know I and others have discussed with you in the past. For Catholics, the presence or absence of a given idea, practice or doctrine from sacred scripture really is a non-issue. If something can be adduced from the scriptures, great. But if they can't, that's no reflection on their value and validity.

For a lot of Protestants, that can be a deal-breaker. But it isn't for us. The issue, as I see it, really isn't whether or not you agree with that way of thinking. The only thing that matters is that WE agree with it. We don't believe in sola scriptura.

The Catholic understanding of Our Lady, for example, comes in part from the reality that God the Father sent her as His messenger time and time again: Lourdes, Guadalupe, Fatima and other occasions as well. During those apparitions, Our Lady disclosed truths from the Lord that weren't known during Our Lord's earthly ministry and which aren't contained in scripture. Her messages were accompanied by miracles, in particular the Lourdes miraculous healings which continue to this day.

Given that miracles of healing cannot possibly originate from Satan, the recorded miracles which accompanied her messages should be understood as God vouching for the truths she has disclosed just as Our Lord had the power to perform signs, wonders and miracles to demonstrate that His message came from God.

Again, Protestants are free to accept or reject these ideas. By all means, take them with as many grains of salt as you see fit. Believe whatever you want. But the relevant issue is that Catholics DO believe these things. Furthermore, we have good reason for doing so.

I find the simplistic "Just go by the scriptures, man" approach reductive inasmuch as it dismisses the probability that the fullness of God's message isn't exclusively contained in sacred scripture, that God would have more to say to man as history unfolds.

Deuteronomy 13

1"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Actually the deciding factor to acknowledge a prophet is not if the miracle happens, but is if the prophet is teaching a false message, to follow other gods, dolatry, serve self interest. So motivation is important. Is the intent to seek the interest of self, idolatry, or is the sign and wonder being used to convince people that God is with the speaker, Moses or Jesus, and believe in their message, to follow them out of serving the interest of self.

Obviously the visions at Lourdes and Fatima all serve self. Jesus was very irritated at people who continued to serve self, ask for healing, when He really wanted them to understand that the signs were given only to convince people that God was with Him, as Nicodemus was convinced, in order to have faith in Him and follow Him out of serving self, mammon. Repent from serving self and turn to serving others.

thecolorsblend · May 6, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Actually the deciding factor to acknowledge a prophet

I'm not prepared to label Our Lady as a prophet. Or prophetess, as it were.

Wordkeeper said:
but is if the prophet is teaching a false message,

Her messages are not false so I think we're okay there.

Wordkeeper said:
to follow other gods, dolatry,

She proclaims Our Lord so that part is okay too.

Wordkeeper said:
Obviously the visions at Lourdes and Fatima all serve self.

Source?

Also, who is the "self" being served there?

Wordkeeper said:
Repent from serving self and turn to serving others.

I'm quite sure you didn't mean to suggest that I'm serving myself, somehow, by being Catholic.

Wordkeeper · May 6, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
I'm not prepared to label Our Lady as a prophet. Or prophetess, as it were.

Her messages are not false so I think we're okay there.

She proclaims Our Lord so that part is okay too.

Source?

Also, who is the "self" being served there?

I'm quite sure you didn't mean to suggest that I'm serving myself, somehow, by being Catholic.

Seeking healing is serving self.

Those who travel to Lourdes never get the message that they should follow Jesus/Moses out of Egypt (worrying about food, clothes, life) into Rest in God, ability to serve others, be a blessing to the world.

Look at how Jesus was irritated at the attitude of the people:

John 6
24So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus. 25When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”

26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

.......

Mark 9
14When they came back to the disciples, they saw a large crowd around them, and some scribes arguing with them. 15Immediately, when the entire crowd saw Him, they were amazed and began running up to greet Him. 16And He asked them, “What are you discussing with them?” 17And one of the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought You my son, possessed with a spirit which makes him mute; 18and whenever it seizes him, it slams him to the ground and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth and stiffens out. I told Your disciples to cast it out, and they could not do it.” 19And He answered them and said, “O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!”

thecolorsblend · May 6, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Seeking healing is serving self.

Wow, really? You think it's okay to just write off loads of people's fears, struggles, challenges and infirmities as self-serving simply because they're desperate enough to travel across the world to be healed?

Wordkeeper said:
Those who travel to Lourdes never get the message that they should follow Jesus/Moses out of Egypt (worrying about food, clothes, life) into Rest in God, ability to serve others, be a blessing to the world.

Golly.

Irrespective of your insensitivity, (A) it doesn't change the fact that those apparitions occurred and (B) that they are legitimized by the real healing miracles which have taken and still do take place.

So to actually deal with the substance of my post (weird idea, I know, but let's give it a try), Catholics believe that our beliefs are validated by the extra-scriptural revelations, apparitions and miracles which are known to have occurred. So rather than cast aspersions on total strangers, would you care to reply to the actual points I've raised?

Wordkeeper · May 6, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
Wow, really? You think it's okay to just write off loads of people's fears, struggles, challenges and infirmities as self-serving simply because they're desperate enough to travel across the world to be healed?

Golly.

Irrespective of your insensitivity, (A) it doesn't change the fact that those apparitions occurred and (B) that they are legitimized by the real healing miracles which have taken and still do take place.

So to actually deal with the substance of my post (weird idea, I know, but let's give it a try), Catholics believe that our beliefs are validated by the extra-scriptural revelations, apparitions and miracles which are known to have occurred. So rather than cast aspersions on total strangers, would you care to reply to the actual points I've raised?

You have to decide which is more important, to satisfy a temporary need like thirst, hunger, sickness which will need to be satisfied again or to satisfy permanently:

John 4
13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

The messengers came to satisfy the latter need, and God gave them help to convince the listeners of the message that they could follow Christ and solve that problem:

Exodus 4
1Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’”2The LORD said to him, “What is that in your hand?” And he said, “A staff.” 3Then He said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4But the LORD said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand and grasp it by its tail”—so he stretched out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand—5“that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.”

John 3
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

They needed to stop serving Egypt, the world, mammon, for things that could not satisfy permanently, to serving God for things that could, the Kingdom of God, God's finger, His involvement in our work.

thecolorsblend · May 6, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
You have to decide which is more important, to satisfy a temporary need like thirst, hunger, sickness which will need to be satisfied again or to satisfy permanently:

John 4
13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

The messengers came to satisfy the latter need, and God gave them help to convince the listeners of the message that they could follow Christ and solve that problem:

Exodus 4
1Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’”2The LORD said to him, “What is that in your hand?” And he said, “A staff.” 3Then He said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4But the LORD said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand and grasp it by its tail”—so he stretched out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand—5“that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.”

John 3
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

They needed to stop serving Egypt, the world, mammon, for things that could not satisfy permanently, to serving God for things that could.

Your ability to miss the point is truly incredible.

Wordkeeper · May 6, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
Your ability to miss the point is truly incredible.

Yes, blow away a response without showing its inadequacy. Very easy. And seemingly impressive and profound.

It's very clear in Deuteronomy 13 that miracles were used to identify messengers from God. What message did the apparition at Lourdes convey?

"Seek for benefits that are temporary".

"Make a vow".

ALL indicators of idolatry.

dzheremi · May 6, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Seeking healing is serving self.

This is a rather strange idea given the many, many examples from the scriptures and 2,000 years of consistent witness of the faith of our Lord and His apostles, disciples, and servants down to this very day healing those who have come to them looking to be healed. The paralytic, the blind man, the demon-possessed and all others who Christ healed were certainly served, and the world is better for it. The founding of the Church in Egypt by the apostle St. Mark is retold to this day to include the miraculous healing of the cobbler Inianos by the prayer of the saint himself, which opened the door to the saint's preaching and the conversion of Inianos and his family. Inianos became the first bishop of Alexandria, 62-83 AD.

It is rather glib to write this repeated phenomenon off completely because you do not believe in a particular apparition or miracle as advanced by a particular church, as in the case of Lourdes. I don't believe in that one, either, but then what does that have to do with healing more generally? It is attested to throughout Christian history, with no shame (as there shouldn't be any, because it is not "serving self" any more than not seeking it would be in itself serving God).

Wordkeeper · May 6, 2018

dzheremi said:
This is a rather strange idea given the many, many examples from the scriptures and 2,000 years of consistent witness of the faith of our Lord and His apostles, disciples, and servants down to this very day healing those who have come to them looking to be healed. The paralytic, the blind man, the demon-possessed and all others who Christ healed were certainly served, and the world is better for it. The founding of the Church in Egypt by the apostle St. Mark is retold to this day to include the miraculous healing of the cobbler Inianos by the prayer of the saint himself, which opened the door to the saint's preaching and the conversion of Inianos and his family. Inianos became the first bishop of Alexandria, 62-83 AD.

It is rather glib to write this repeated phenomenon off completely because you do not believe in a particular apparition or miracle as advanced by a particular church, as in the case of Lourdes. I don't believe in that one, either, but then what does that have to do with healing more generally? It is attested to throughout Christian history, with no shame (as there shouldn't be any, because it is not "serving self" any more than not seeking it would be in itself serving God).

Jesus didn't come to feed the hungry, heal the sick. He came to rescue God's People out of mammon, to bring them into the real Rest.

In fact, John the Baptist found Jesus's unusual ministry offensive.

sunlover1 · May 6, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
There are prayers which one can offer to angels.

https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/angel2.htm (Prayer to Guardian Angel)

EWTN Novena Page (Saint Michael The Archangel)

Hmm, I'm not convinced we should be doing this kind of thing.
Whenever I'm involved in group prayer and someone goes
there, I disengage.
Not judging you, just sharing my own personal view.

Your post hits upon issues which I know I and others have discussed with you in the past. For Catholics, the presence or absence of a given idea, practice or doctrine from sacred scripture really is a non-issue. If something can be adduced from the scriptures, great. But if they can't, that's no reflection on their value and validity.

Am i horrible for not remembering you :/ did you change your name.
Forgive me! I hate that part of me, my memory. :/ it's been poor as long as i can
remember (That was kinda punny, smh)

For a lot of Protestants, that can be a deal-breaker. But it isn't for us. The issue, as I see it, really isn't whether or not you agree with that way of thinking. The only thing that matters is that WE agree with it. We don't believe in sola scriptura.

r
Actually, not all Catholics agree with you here.
And I was raised Catholic, and most of my circle
are still practicing. TBH, many conservative
Catholics are very angry with the pope, and
some denounce him as their leader ...

The Catholic understanding of Our Lady, for example, comes in part from the reality that God the Father sent her as His messenger time and time again: Lourdes, Guadalupe, Fatima and other occasions as well. During those apparitions, Our Lady disclosed truths from the Lord that weren't known during Our Lord's earthly ministry and which aren't contained in scripture. Her messages were accompanied by miracles, in particular the Lourdes miraculous healings which continue to this day.

Given that miracles of healing cannot possibly originate from Satan, the recorded miracles which accompanied her messages should be understood as God vouching for the truths she has disclosed just as Our Lord had the power to perform signs, wonders and miracles to demonstrate that His message came from God.

Again, Protestants are free to accept or reject these ideas. By all means, take them with as many grains of salt as you see fit. Believe whatever you want. But the relevant issue is that Catholics DO believe these things. Furthermore, we have good reason for doing so.

I find the simplistic "Just go by the scriptures, man" approach reductive inasmuch as it dismisses the probability that the fullness of God's message isn't exclusively contained in sacred scripture, that God would have more to say to man as history unfolds.

I also believe that God continues to speak. Amen!
Problem is, we're not all hearing the same god.
(Not speaking of you or me, but the church at large)
OBVIOUSLY we're not all hearing the same voice.

I also understand that you don't hold Scripture in
the same esteem as I do, and that's fine. But I still
have to let my own voice be heard, on behalf of all
those who may read this today tomorrow, a year
from now etc.

Because MY understanding of praying to those folks
who've passed on, is that it's VERY dangerous for
the person doing it.

I'm sure you can understand why I'd want to warn

Having said that, I'm also OPEN to change my mind.
Because I'm perfectly aware that I'm not only "not
the pope"

but also that I'm not even all that bright,
my only hope for truth is the Spirit of Truth Himself!
And while He "leads us" we don't always hear right.
Amen?
Thank you and again so sorry I don't remember you
Sucks.. I kind of feel like i should (?)

dzheremi · May 6, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Jesus didn't come to feed the hungry, heal the sick.

Yet He and His disciples very clearly did both those things.

He came to rescue God's People out of mammon, to bring them into the real Rest.

Yes. (It's not either/or; it's both/and.)

In fact, John the Baptist found Jesus's unusual ministry offensive.

Pardon?

John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

Wordkeeper · May 6, 2018

dzheremi said:
Yet He and His disciples very clearly did both those things.

Jesus told the crowd not to follow Him (work) for food that perishes. In other words, the feeding and the healing were not the reasons He came. They served the purpose of telling the listeners of His message that God was with Him, as Nicodemus admitted.

Yes. (It's not either/or; it's both/and.)

It's IS/FOR. The miracles were produced FOR the purpose of confirming God's support of the message, to come out of Egypt, serving the world for rewards that perish.

Pardon?

Sure, how many do you need? Pardons, I mean...

Matthew 11
1When Jesus had finished giving instructions to His twelve disciples, He departed from there to teach and preach in their cities.
2Now when John, while imprisoned, heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples 3and said to Him, “Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?” 4Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you hear and see: 5the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM. 6“And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”

7As these men were going away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John, “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8“But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ palaces! 9“But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet.

10“This is the one about whom it is written,
‘BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.’

11“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12“From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. 13“For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14“And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. 15“He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

16“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, 17and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’ 18“For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19“The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

This requires a little unpacking. John expected Jesus to teach Israel not to serve the world for treasure that rusts and perishes, but God for treasure that lasts, like all the servants sent to collect this worldview from the stewards of the vineyard (excuse me for mixing metaphors). How? by leading an ascetic lifestyle, like all the previous prophets. But Jesus was a prophet like Moses: He could preach AND have His message accompanied by signs and wonders!

John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

Matthew 11
2Now when John, while imprisoned, heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples 3and said to Him, “Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?”

thecolorsblend · May 6, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Yes, blow away a response without showing its inadequacy.

That's usually what I do with "replies" that are off topic. As yours was.

Wordkeeper said:
"Seek for benefits that are temporary".

"Make a vow".

ALL indicators of idolatry.

Not really. Idolatry is (1) manufacturing an inanimate object into the likeness of something/someone, (2) believing said inanimate object is literally that something/someone and (3) worshiping it as though it is God.

I say that to say that the communion of the saints fails all three criteria for idolatry.

Now, as you probably have seen before, Protestants have a special affection for redefining words to mean something other than what they've meant for thousands of years. Typically this is done in discussions when a Protestant wants to critique a given traditional Christian practice. The communion of the saints is a good example of this type of thing, in fact. "I won't seek prayerful intercession from the saints because it's too similar to my special little snowflake definition of idolatry! Look upon my piety, ye wannabes, and tremble!"

You can petition the saints for intercession or you can not. But what you shouldn't do is redefine ancient words to fit with your man-made, Protestant beliefs.

thecolorsblend · May 6, 2018

sunlover1 said:
Hmm, I'm not convinced we should be doing this kind of thing.

I can accept that. I'm making no effort to persuade you. Rather, I'm informing you of Catholic beliefs.

sunlover1 said:
Actually, not all Catholics agree with you here.
And I was raised Catholic, and most of my circle
are still practicing. TBH, many conservative
Catholics are very angry with the pope, and
some denounce him as their leader ...

Being upset with Pope Francis about one issue or another is hardly the same as rejecting the papacy in general. Certainly it's not the same as adopting sola scriptura. Whatever issues these Catholics you know may have with Francis, they're not disagreeing with me regarding sola scriptura, I suspect.

sunlover1 said:
Because MY understanding of praying to those folks
who've passed on, is that it's VERY dangerous for
the person doing it.

Not sure how it could be "dangerous". But perhaps part of a different reply I typed can shed some light on this for you.

thecolorsblend said:
Idolatry is (1) manufacturing an inanimate object into the likeness of something/someone, (2) believing said inanimate object is literally that something/someone and (3) worshiping it as though it is God.

I say that to say that the communion of the saints fails all three criteria for idolatry.

Now, as you probably have seen before, Protestants have a special affection for redefining words to mean something other than what they've meant for thousands of years. Typically this is done in discussions when a Protestant wants to critique a given traditional Christian practice. The communion of the saints is a good example of this type of thing, in fact. "I won't seek prayerful intercession from the saints because it's too similar to my special little snowflake definition of idolatry! Look upon my piety, ye wannabes, and tremble!"

sunlover1 · May 6, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
I can accept that. I'm making no effort to persuade you. Rather, I'm informing you of Catholic beliefs.

Being upset with Pope Francis about one issue or another is hardly the same as rejecting the papacy in general. Certainly it's not the same as adopting sola scriptura. Whatever issues these Catholics you know may have with Francis, they're not disagreeing with me regarding sola scriptura, I suspect.

They're rejecting the pope, so yeah kind of.
I was just letting you know that not all of your
tribe is on the same page. So you can't really
speak for all Catholics.
But I certainly respect your opinions!

Not sure how it could be "dangerous". But perhaps part of a different reply I typed can shed some light on this for you.

I think we can even make an idol out of something without bowing to it or manufacturing it with out hands.

It could be dangerous because we could easily be talking to demons.
To be blunt.

sunlover1 · May 6, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Seeking healing is serving self.

I don't believe that the fatima and such were signs sent by God,
but seeking healing is mandated, nothing self seeking in that.
(If any be sick they should call for the elders of the church... etc)
I often pray and have faith because I believe i need to be here
on earth yet to finish my assignment.

Praying to Saints

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