7th Trumpet Rapture?

You are truly hilarious , you misinterpret scripture on a constant basis ,
I have not altered scripture , you just don't understand it at all,
Do you have the ability to create Life out of nothing - Nope but Almighty God can !
Do you have the ability to known someone while they are yet still in the womb ? Nope but Almighty God can!
For one thing you don't understand the usage or history of the term, JEW comes from and it's usage today -

Secondly Almighty God said the 144000 Jews are from the 12 tribes -12000 from each - Scripture does NOT say in any way at all that You will know who they are or where they will be - Almighty God KNOWS and that is what it says !
Almighty God is sending the 144000 just like HE is sending the Two Witnesses amd He is sending the great delusion/Man of Lawlessness aka antichrist God is the one who sends them and HE Alone knows who they are

You nor anyone else will know who they are until they cone - what you suggest is NOTHING more than your opinion !!
Your foolish campaign will come back to bite you as you are Wrong and your folly is nothing more than your attempt to edify yourself and you will be humbled !
Your foolish campaign fails and all you will accomplish is attacking the brethren which will bite you as it is against what Jesus told you to do

keras said:

YOU have altered scripture!
The 144,000 are from all the tribes of Israel, of which Judah is only one. The Jews today do come from two of the tribes; Judah and Benjamin, that's all.
Your 'rapture' blinkers force you to make foolish errors and wrong assumptions, if you think that the Jews are all Israel. It would be hard to find 12,000 born again Christian Jews! 144,000 ?

What I don't like and I campaign against, is the unscriptural false teaching of a removal of the Church before any trials and testing. 1 Peter 4:12 plainly says that we must face testing and 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 tells us it will be by fire.
People who liked the idea of being whisked up to heaven, will be very shocked when it doesn't happen, as the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath strikes the earth and may renounce God. That is why I promote the truth, so people can be prepared, physically and spiritually for what must come.

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BABerean2 said:

The woman at the well agrees with you.
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So does Almighty God !! It is HIS word that tells us the HE will reign on earth at his return!
Something you have yet to learn anything about as you continue to remove Most of the Holy Bible to make your doctrine work!

keras said:

Jerry, you just keep on with your beliefs, without properly considering anyone who contradicts you.
You quote Ephesians 1:3 as a rapture proof. It does not say we go to heaven and the context is about our salvation and our earthly calling.
Typical of a 'rapture to heaven' believer, you see all scripture thru that view.

To clarify the difference between how those who remain when Jesus Returns are gathered to Him, as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-7 says, and the 2 Witnesses, who are taken to heaven, we need to realize that the gathering, as Matthew 24:31 describes, is not to heaven but to Jerusalem, where Jesus will reign from. It is just a transportation to meet Him and then be with Him forever, the same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39 Immortality, as described in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is not conferred until after the Millennium. Only after the Book of life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

Rapture believers say: There might be some dispute about the timing, but the concept is very clear in scripture. Quote
The concept of a rapture to heaven of the Church is NOT 'very clear' at all. There is no verse that states God intends to take the Christian Church to heaven. But there are several that say such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10

And as for the 'dispute about the timing', this ongoing argument should ring bells of concern for all who wish to believe in the rapture theory. For 100+ years this issue has been argued and fought over by Christians, without any resolution. Pre, Mid, Post and now Pre-wrath, all have their exponents and all are wrong because the Bible simply does not prophesy a rapture to heaven at any time.
What we see with the rapture issue, is assumptions, inferences and plain guesswork, resulting in lies and confusion. Promoted, of course, by the Author of lies and confusion.
We are told that people will be susceptible to false teachings, 1 Timothy 4:3-4, and Jesus warned us to not be deceived. I guess He knew that many would be deceived!

What the Prophetic Word does tell us God will do for His people, those who stand firm in their faith; is protection through al that must happen. Dozens of verses state how the Lord will protect His own through fire, Isaiah 43:2 and the 3 men in the furnace, Daniel 3:19-27, are examples.
We are told to Call upon the Name of the Lord and we will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21.

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keras,

1. The problem is you can’t proof your position by scripture.

2. I already told you I didn’t didn’t use Ephesians 1:3 for the rapture and explained why and all you want to do is disagree.

3. Your position of what you call the transport being after the millennial kingdom and the scripture proves you wrong by 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. You didn’t try to debunk it.

4. The rapture is to Heaven. Why?
a). Enoch is a type of the rapture for he was transported to Heaven for God took him cause he walked with God Genesis 5:24
b). Matthew 37:39; the second advent will be like the days of Noah where they were eating and drinking etc., and knew not until the flood came and took them all away.
This proves Enoch is the type for the rapture and is not about God preserving through tribulation like Noah.
Vs. 40-41 proves a rapture because you want to be taken, whereas, at the second advent you want to be left to be alive for it is paralleled with the people who were taken died.
c). John 14:1-3 shows Jesus has gone to prepare us mansions in Heaven not on earth.
d). 1 Corinthians 15:50 Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God which is Heaven not earth for flesh and blood will be on earth in the millennial kingdom.
Vs. 51 shews the mystery is we shall all be changed, those who are alive and those who are dead.
This was a mystery to the Old Testament Saints. All they knew was the last day of the resurrection of the dead John 5:29; Hebrews 6:1-2; Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6.
e). 1 Thessalonians 4:16:17 was not known to the Old Testament saints as proven in the above scriptures.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 shows the Day of the Lord was a known doctrine.
f). 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 shows that Paul did not write a letter or say anything by word of mouth or within his spirit that they had missed the rapture for they thought the Day of Christ which is translated the Day of the Lord was at hand. But that Day wouldn’t come till after the falling away first and the son of perdition, man of sin is revealed when he appears in the temple so he proclaims himself God. This is the Abomination Of Desolation which happens in the middle of the tribulation Revelation 11:1-2.
g). Also, vs. 7 he who that letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way is the church who will be raptured.
2 Thessalonians 2:5; Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things. This refers to 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
The Holy Spirit will not be taken out of the way because no one can be saved unless the Spirit draws them.
The governments will still be here.
h). The churches of Asia represented the historical churches and since Revelation is a prophecy Revelation 1:3 it includes the whole church age.
It also fits the timing of Revelation in Revelation 1:19; the things which are.
Revelation 4:1 John goes up to Heaven through a door and is shown things hereafter which is after what? After the church age.
That is why the church is Heaven with the Old Testament saints for we shall reign as Kings and Priests 2 Timothy 2:12; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 5:10. This is before the tribulation and the millennial Kingdom and the New Heaven and the New Earth. Why? Because the Lion of Judah is found worthy to open one of the seals which is the first to start the tribulation and the other six as well.
I don’t need to go any further because it is plain your position is out of context.

5. There are scriptures to show God has kept his children from going through tribulation so your argument is opinion and conjecture.
Psalm 32:7: Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble, thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance, Selah.
Enoch is a type of the rapture that is another example.
Either way all the scriptures I showed for the rapture has proven why your position cannot be right.
Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

Either way all the scriptures I showed for the rapture has proven why your position cannot be right.

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I do not see any proof of a rapture to heaven of the church in any of your ramblings.
There is nowhere in the Bible that plainly tells of a removal of the church. You just make it up from assumptions and wishful thinking.
People reading your posts can see how confused and incoherent you are. I suggest you keep to your beliefs if you must, but cease trying to teach others.

jerry kelso said:

Revelation 4:1 John goes up to Heaven through a door and is shown things hereafter which is after what? After the church age.

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Since the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the New Covenant Church cannot come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.
This claim is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology.

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keras said:

I do not see any proof of a rapture to heaven of the church in any of your ramblings.
There is nowhere in the Bible that plainly tells of a removal of the church. You just make it up from assumptions and wishful thinking.
People reading your posts can see how confused and incoherent you are. I suggest you keep to your beliefs if you must, but cease trying to teach others.

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keras,

1. There is no where that it says we are transported, resurrected and go to the Holy City after the millennial kingdom.

2. I have given you much more evidence for a pre-trib rapture than your transport theory.
I proved plainly why your timing alone is wrong not to mention your transport theory and you can’t rebut it.

3. In Hermeneutics sometime there are no plain statements such as when Paul said “I daily” in 1 Corinthians 15.
That is what you are looking for and the rapture or even your transport doesn’t say on any position.
The weight of evidence in scripture and all the context and putting them together properly points to the pre-trib rapture.

4. You are the one who claims to be a teacher and you have had wrong hermeneutics for a long time probably and you will always come up wrong.
I don’t mean to hurt your pride but it is just a Statement of fact. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

Since the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the New Covenant Church cannot come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.
This claim is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology.

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baberean2,

1. Hebrews is speaking to Christian Jews of the church in chapter 8.
This follows chapter 7 about the priesthood of Christ which was of Melchizedek and not levitical.
The earthly tabernacle was a shadow of heavenly things 8:5.

2. V6 Christ hath obtained a more excellent and how he is the mediator of a better covenant which was established upon better promises.
For if the first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
The New Coventant is in force and has been since Calvary.

3. Verse 8 switches to finding fault with the house of Israel and Judah which was the same words in Jeremiah’s prophecy when they were not united physically or spiritually.
In Jesus Day they were separate because the KoH message was for the lost sheep of Israel. Hosea promised he would have mercy on Judah Hosea 1:7.
Israel would not be gathered as one with Judah until the end days at Jezreel Hosea 1:11 physically and spiritually.
This Agrees with Ezekiel 37:16-28. This is in the last days in the days when David will be their Prince forever v25.

4. V9 The Lord will make a covenant with these two houses that wasn’t the same as in Egypt which was the Old Covenat Law of Moses.
So it is true that the New Covenant made the Old Covenant obsolete.

5. The House of Israel are backslidden and have to have the Lord’s laws in their minds and hearts not Judah.
Vs. 11-12 are definitely millennial fulfillment’s are not true now and won’t be until the millennium.
This goes along with Ezekiel 37:16-28 and Hosea 1:7.

6. So the New Covenant is everlasting ever since the cross.

7. The New Covenant Church is a different age that ends in Revelation 4:1 for John is take to Heaven through a door and shown things hereafter which is after the church age.
Revelation 5-10 shows the church saints are in Heaven before the tribulation for we shall reign as kings and priests on earth which is future tense.
The church is not pictured in the tribulation.
You use the false spiritual theory to replace Israel’s calling according to the KoH reign.
You also think since the church was born at the time of the New Covenant and they were made propagators in the church era they will be in the millennial kingdom.
This is not true according to the KoH reign on earth got Israel 2 Samuel 13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7 etc.
You are wrong again because you don’t use the proper context and reconcile all the scriptures together properly. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

1. Hebrews is speaking to Christian Jews of the church in chapter 8.
This follows chapter 7 about the priesthood of Christ which was of Melchizedek and not levitical.
The earthly tabernacle was a shadow of heavenly things 8:5.

2. V6 Christ hath obtained a more excellent and how he is the mediator of a better covenant which was established upon better promises.
For if the first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
The New Coventant is in force and has been since Calvary.

3. Verse 8 switches to finding fault with the house of Israel and Judah which was the same words in Jeremiah’s prophecy when they were not united physically or spiritually.
In Jesus Day they were separate because the KoH message was for the lost sheep of Israel. Hosea promised he would have mercy on Judah Hosea 1:7.
Israel would not be gathered as one with Judah until the end days at Jezreel Hosea 1:11 physically and spiritually.
This Agrees with Ezekiel 37:16-28. This is in the last days in the days when David will be their Prince forever v25.

4. V9 The Lord will make a covenant with these two houses that wasn’t the same as in Egypt which was the Old Covenat Law of Moses.
So it is true that the New Covenant made the Old Covenant obsolete.

5. The House of Israel are backslidden and have to have the Lord’s laws in their minds and hearts not Judah.
Vs. 11-12 are definitely millennial fulfillment’s are not true now and won’t be until the millennium.
This goes along with Ezekiel 37:16-28 and Hosea 1:7.

6. So the New Covenant is everlasting ever since the cross.

7. The New Covenant Church is a different age that ends in Revelation 4:1 for John is take to Heaven through a door and shown things hereafter which is after the church age.
Revelation 5-10 shows the church saints are in Heaven before the tribulation for we shall reign as kings and priests on earth which is future tense.
The church is not pictured in the tribulation.
You use the false spiritual theory to replace Israel’s calling according to the KoH reign.
You also think since the church was born at the time of the New Covenant and they were made propagators in the church era they will be in the millennial kingdom.
This is not true according to the KoH reign on earth got Israel 2 Samuel 13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7 etc.
You are wrong again because you don’t use the proper context and reconcile all the scriptures together properly. Jerry Kelso

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You seem to be ignoring the fact that Christ made sure the Gospel was preached "first" (Romans 1:16) to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in Matthew 10:5-7.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:36.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that when the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites. (Romans 11:1)

Even though you were just shown that the New Covenant Church is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, you are attempting to ignore this fact and then turn around and claim that the Church ends in Revelation 4:1.

Why are you attempting to ignore these passages?
Because it kills your KOH and KOG Two Peoples of God doctrine.

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jerry kelso said:

keras,

1. You don’t call 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 a rapture? Christ brings the dead from Heaven to meet the living believers in the sky to be with him forever. That is not a rapture?
When does it happen? It doesn’t happen at the last day of the First Resurrection for their will only be tribulation saints who are dead Revelation 15:1-2;Revelation 20:4-6. They are in Heaven before the Wrath of God Revelation 15:1-2.
The wrath of God are the 7 vials on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:1-2, not the tribulation saints.

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1 Thess 4:15-17 is not a whisked away rapture.

the 'caught up' is the 'harpazo' which also means 'to seize'.

the 'clouds' is the Greek 'nephele' derived from the word 'nephos' Strong's Greek: 3507. νεφέλη (nephelé) -- a cloud. Nephos means 'great multitude' & also 'clouds' Strong's Greek: 3509. νέφος (nephos) -- a mass of clouds, a cloud. We have seen the 'great multitude' in Revelation 7:9, just before the 1st Trumpet. That 'trumpet' is the 'sound of the trumpet of God' occuring in verse 16.

It is the same event as Matthew 24:29-31. The 'angels'/ also means 'messengers' gather people - on earth.

the 'air' is the Greek 'aer' which means 'air' as we think of it in English Strong's Greek: 109. ἀήρ (aér) -- air . But in Greek, there is a word for 'heaven' that also means 'air' - that word is the Greek 'Ouranos' Strong's Greek: 3772. οὐρανός (ouranos) -- heaven and is used very often. So why did Paul not use the 'heaven'/ 'air' word 'Ouranos'?

Because the 'air'/ 'earth air'/ non- heaven 'air' is meant to convey both meanings: the dead are gathered 'in heaven'. The living will be gathered 'on earth' - to the kingdom of heaven on earth. (Keras thinks this is literally Jerusalem, but I don't agree with this)

I know you don't believe a word I just wrote, but just answer this question:

where is this 'kingdom of heaven' that is referred to here:

Matt 25
Is this 'kingdom of heaven' on earth, or is it literally in 'heaven'?

If it is literally in 'heaven', why are there foolish virgins there?

If it is the 'kingdom of heaven' on earth, why would people be whisked away to literal heaven when the kingdom of heaven on earth has just begun?

tranquil said:

1 Thess 4:15-17 is not a whisked away rapture.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
​

the 'caught up' is the 'harpazo' which also means 'to seize'.

the 'clouds' is the Greek 'nephele' derived from the word 'nephos' Strong's Greek: 3507. νεφέλη (nephelé) -- a cloud. Nephos means 'great multitude' & also 'clouds' Strong's Greek: 3509. νέφος (nephos) -- a mass of clouds, a cloud. We have seen the 'great multitude' in Revelation 7:9, just before the 1st Trumpet. That 'trumpet' is the 'sound of the trumpet of God' occuring in verse 16.

It is the same event as Matthew 24:29-31. The 'angels'/ also means 'messengers' gather people - on earth.

the 'air' is the Greek 'aer' which means 'air' as we think of it in English Strong's Greek: 109. ἀήρ (aér) -- air . But in Greek, there is a word for 'heaven' that also means 'air' - that word is the Greek 'Ouranos' Strong's Greek: 3772. οὐρανός (ouranos) -- heaven and is used very often. So why did Paul not use the 'heaven'/ 'air' word 'Ouranos'?

Because the 'air'/ 'earth air'/ non- heaven 'air' is meant to convey both meanings: the dead are gathered 'in heaven'. The living will be gathered 'on earth' - to the kingdom of heaven on earth. (Keras thinks this is literally Jerusalem, but I don't agree with this)

I know you don't believe a word I just wrote, but just answer this question:

where is this 'kingdom of heaven' that is referred to here:

Matt 25

1“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept.

6But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’

10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
​

Is this 'kingdom of heaven' on earth, or is it literally in 'heaven'?

If it is literally in 'heaven', why are there foolish virgins there?

If it is the 'kingdom of heaven' on earth, why would people be whisked away to literal heaven when the kingdom of heaven on earth has just begun?

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tranquil,

1. You are right; I don’t believe what you have posted is biblical.

2. The seals, trumpets, and vials are consecutive.

3. The sealing of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are the 1st parenthetical.
The 144,000 are sealed right after the 6th seal.
The Great Multitude are the culmination of tribulation saints.
This is not until the end of the tribulation.
They are before the throne of God For they shall be in time for the marriage of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-10.

4. You are already wrong on the Great Multitude.
The rapture has to be at the last trump 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

5. The Great Multitude being clouds is like in the Great Cloud of Witnesses Hebrews 12:1 who have gone before having passed their test in life.
It is not the tribulation saints. which are not resurrected until the First resurrection Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6.

6. It is not the same event as Matthew 24:29-31 because this the second advent at the end of the tribulation which is in the 2nd half of the tribulation. The 1st trumpet is in the first half of the tribulation.
The angels are gathering the Jewish remnant not the church for the church is in Heaven Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10.

7. Matthew 25 is Jesus parables to the Jews about the second advent. This is the KoH reign on earth which is the millennial kingdom.

8. You obviously don’t understand the KoH and KoG which was only a message to Israel Matthew 10:6-7. The KoH was not preached to the early church.
The KoG is spiritual to the finished work of Christ for the church today.
The KoH reign on earth concerning the kingdom program with Israel is eternal 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; Isaiah 2:2-4. 9:6-7 etc.

9. The church today is training for rulership throughout the KoH 2 Timothy 2:12. It has a heavenly calling concerning the universe as well Colossians 1:16 and the Holy City which comes down to earth Revelation 21:2.
John 14:1-3; Jesus has gone to prepare us mansions and they are not built on the earth. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Christ made sure the Gospel was preached "first" (Romans 1:16) to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in Matthew 10:5-7.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:36.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that when the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites. (Romans 11:1)

Even though you were just shown that the New Covenant Church is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, you are attempting to ignore this fact and then turn around and claim that the Church ends in Revelation 4:1.

Why are you attempting to ignore these passages?
Because it kills your KOH and KOG Two Peoples of God doctrine.

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baberean2,

1. I have not ignored anything. I have addressed everyone one of those.
You are the one that ignores what I say such as Hebrews 8:10-12.
You are the one who cannot rebut the scriptures and their context I have given.
You think your position is right and that makes your posts one sided. You don’t exegete the scripture properly.

2. I have quoted Matthew 10:6-7 and it’s context more than numerous times.
Romans 1-16 to the Jew was the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
The Jews had to believe Christ was Messiah and repent for entrance in the KoH reign on earth Matthew 4:17. They didn’t understand the death, burial, and resurrection for Jesus didn’t teach it for Peter didn’t know it Matthew 16:21:23.
After the KoH message was rejected Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus started to tell about his death and resurrection Matthew 16:21.
It wasn’t till the Day of Pentecost and after that the disciples started preaching this message Acts 2; 2:42; 4:2.
The KoH reign of the land and the throne is not a message to the church 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; Isaiah 2:-2-4; 9:6-7; Ezekiel 37:16-28 and more. How many times do I have to tell you? And you haven’t rebutted it yet and haven’t really addressed it.

3. I have addressed Peter addressing the whole house of Israel the gospel. The early church was basically all Jews from Jesus Day.
It was the death and resurrection they preached not the KoH being restored Acts 1:6-7.

4. I already addressed the New Covenant is everlasting and so is the church for the gates of hell shall not prevail against it Matthew 16:18.
Hebrews 13:20 the blood is the everlasting covenant.
Where you go wrong is that you think the gospel can’t be propagated without the church.
When the rapture happens there will be plenty who knows what has happened and there are plenty of things of dvd’s left behind by televangelists and books etc, and the Holy Spirit will still be on the earth and only he can draw men to Christ.
Revelation 4:1 doesn’t mean they had come to the end for they went to Heaven.
The church age is what ends by going to Heaven.
If the church ended then the gates of hell would prevail against it and we know that won’t happen.

5. I have not ignored these issues before or now. Quit being untruthful.

6. Killing the KoH and the KoG message is your opinion.
You haven’t rebutted the eternal covenant KoH promises concerning the land of Israel and the throne of David at the head of the nations and the capital, New Jerusalem in Israel and Christ who is a son of Israel.
The land is promised to Israel and their children and their children’s children and David as their prince forever. Ezekiel 37:25.
The heathen will know that the Lord sanctifies Israel when the sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.
You can’t rebut these scriptural facts with your spiritual Jew theory to the extreme.
Israel and Judah become one stick Ezekiel 37:22-28 not the church.
The church wasn’t defiled with idols.

7. All the saints will be one in Christ as New Covenant saints. The position of authority is what is different including the land and the other things that I mentioned. God is no respect of persons and it is his choice and promise that he puts the two sticks together of Israel and Judah and the KoH promises that does not include the church.
There are things that the church will have the privilege of doing hat Israel won’t have. Do you think that is fair? You think it is unfair that Israel has been promised something that the church has not been promised.
I know you’ll probably deny that.
You also probably believe that since the Jews and Gentiles are in one body of Christ today that it makes no sense for a physical nation to have those promises and not the church.
You believe your position is true and right but you have to take scripture out of context and build up a straw man or two.
You haven’t rebutted the verses on the Eternal Covenants Of Abraham and David concerning the KoH promises to Israel and Judah.
The reason you can’t rebut is because you don’t understand the context correctly or how to reconcile the scriptures properly on the given subject.
This is why you stick as close to your usual mantra instead of rebutting. Many of the scriptures you don’t really address or mention.
So you are the one that is ignoring because you haven’t got an answer. That is why you gotta keep relying on your teachers and I have rebutted them as well.
So quit accusing me of ignoring when you are the one who ignores.
I try my best to answer every major point and mostly what you do is use your mantra or take a few scriptures to poke holes in the many scriptures I give many times plus the context.
If you think that is fair then that is between you and God I guess.
Now I answered to all your objections this time which was not the first time so please quit acting like I am ignoring your points you post. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

Where you go wrong is that you think the gospel can’t be propagated without the church.

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Since the "Church" is made up of individuals who have placed their faith in Christ, you would be in error to think that the Church will come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.
The verse below proves this fact.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Since those above have placed their faith in Christ and are under the blood of the Lamb, by definition they must be members of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.
To claim otherwise is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology, brought to America by John Nelson Darby about the time of the Civil War.

The claim that they are "tribulation saints" and not a part of the Church is an invention of those promoting your Two Peoples of God doctrine.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

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BABerean2 said:

Since the "Church" is made up of individuals who have placed their faith in Christ, you would be in error to think that the Church will come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.
The verse below proves this fact.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Since those above have placed their faith in Christ and are under the blood of the Lamb, by definition they must be members of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.
To claim otherwise is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology, brought to America by John Nelson Darby about the time of the Civil War.

The claim that they are "tribulation saints" and not a part of the Church is an invention of those promoting your Two Peoples of God doctrine.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

.

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baberean2,

1. You can call the tribulation saints the New Covenant church that is fine for they will be saved under the blood of the New Testament.

2. You can believe the church goes through the whole tribulation to make Israel jealous.

3. The fact is the eternal KoH reign promises with Israel and the land promise to their children and their children’s children and David as there prince forever and the law going out of Zion etc. still stands for they are gifts and callings are without repentance.
Israel and Judah are two sticks that become one but everyone that is saved will be one.

4. So you are still wrong. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

Israel and Judah are two sticks that become one but everyone that is saved will be one.

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as 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


It is quite amazing that a man builds a doctrine upon a distinction that does not exist.
When he is shown that it does not exist, he attempts to ignore this fact.
Therefore, it is a doctrine of ignorance.


Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

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BABerean2 said:

as 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


It is quite amazing that a man builds a doctrine upon a distinction that does not exist.
When he is shown that it does not exist, he attempts to ignore this fact.
Therefore, it is a doctrine of ignorance.


Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

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baberean2,

1. I see you have no answer to the last post so you have to make up another untruth.
Why? Because you won’t keep the KoH and the KoG message Jesus taught to Israel only and the New Covenant in his blood separate.

2. You didn’t address what I said or rebut it because you can’t.
I don’t really believe you want to know the truth and you are blind because of wrong hermeneutics.
The KoH message is throughout the whole Old Testament. It was not to the church and you make up things to try and prove your point and it don’t work.
You ought to get away from your teachers and ask God to humble you so you can understand the truth better instead of sidestepping the whole issue. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

Because you won’t keep the KoH and the KoG message Jesus taught to Israel only and the New Covenant in his blood separate.

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Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

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BABerean2 said:

Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

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baberean2,

1. I have already explained this.

2. Matthew 19:23 is the physical KoH.
Matthew 19:24 is the spiritual KoG.

3. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.
Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the KoG and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.
Luke 17:20; And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the KoG should come, he answered them and said, The KoG cometh not with observation:
Like 17:21; Neither shall they say, Lo here, or Lo there, for, behold, the KoG is within you.
You are wrong again. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

1. I have already explained this.

2. Matthew 19:23 is the physical KoH.
Matthew 19:24 is the spiritual KoG.

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That is the problem, Jerry.

You have to "explain" what the scripture means to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

The words "physical" and "spiritual" are not in the passage.
Those words are coming from Jerry Kelso.


2Pe_1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

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BABerean2 said:

That is the problem, Jerry.

You have to "explain" what the scripture means to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

The words "physical" and "spiritual" are not in the passage.
Those words are coming from Jerry Kelso.


2Pe_1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

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baberean2,

1. It is not a private interpretation.
If it was true then passages like I die daily would be plain and there would be no reason to read the context.
How naive you are to make such a statement.

2. I gave the scripture with the terms; KoH physical and KoG spiritual.

3. That a rich man shall hardly enter into the KoH.
This implies that not all rich men shall enter into the KoH but’s some will.
It’s easier for a camel to go through a needle is a spiritual absolute for it is awhile camel to go through the needle.
Than for a rich man to enter the KoG which is salvation. Without salvation one wouldn’t enter the KoG.

4. You need to learn context instead of giving a couple of scripture that you perceive to be plain. Even plain statements have context.
You are wrong again. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

1. It is not a private interpretation.
If it was true then passages like I die daily would be plain and there would be no reason to read the context.
How naive you are to make such a statement.

2. I gave the scripture with the terms; KoH physical and KoG spiritual.

3. That a rich man shall hardly enter into the KoH.
This implies that not all rich men shall enter into the KoH but’s some will.
It’s easier for a camel to go through a needle is a spiritual absolute for it is awhile camel to go through the needle.
Than for a rich man to enter the KoG which is salvation. Without salvation one wouldn’t enter the KoG.

4. You need to learn context instead of giving a couple of scripture that you perceive to be plain. Even plain statements have context.
You are wrong again. Jerry kelso

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The only way you can get anyone into the kingdom of "heaven", or the kingdom of "God" without salvation is through a private interpretation of scripture.

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