Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

EmSw

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Here's something that really reveals your lack of understanding (or rejection of) Scripture.

You've frequently claimed that Jesus never spoke about the cross, or dying on a cross.

If you are going to make up stories about me, please get it right. I never said He didn't mention His death. I said Jesus never once mentioned a 'cross' on which He was to die, much less as a sacrifice on a 'cross'.

His lack of stating anything about a 'cross', surely shows how the 'cross' was not the focus on His ministry. Men today worship and idolize the cross as the foundation of their belief, even to the point of criminalizing others who do not focus on the 'cross'. And yes, you are guilty of this.

He definitely spoke much more of keeping His commandments, than any death on a cross. He did not say, 'if you love me, make the cross the focus of your belief'. He did not say, 'if you want to enter life, make the cross the foundation of your belief'. In fact, He NEVER once said to regard the cross with great or uncritical admiration or devotion

If you want the cross as your identification with Jesus, go for it; believe as your heart desires. If that is how you want to remember Jesus, as beaten, bloodied, and hanging on a Roman cross, chase it with all your might.

But I can tell you this, don't ever think this was any kind of sacrifice as stated in the OT. This was not anything near to what God demanded of OT sacrifices.

Now, as you know what I believe now, do not ever again say anything about any mocking of the cross. I do not put my faith in a godless, Roman ritual which was for the worst of criminals. If Jesus was a criminal to you, I can see why you don't believe His words about keeping the commandments to enter life.

Well, consider this from Luke 24:
6 He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee:
7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ”
8 Then they remembered his words.

Nothing here says anything about an OT sacrifice. The animal sacrificed was never 'delivered over to the hands of sinners' to be crucified. This showed the depth of hatred the Jews had for Jesus.

If that is not enough, consider this:
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”
27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Suffering of the sacrificial animal was not a part of the OT sacrifices. So far, you are batting zero in saying the cross was a sacrifice for sins.

v.25 refers directly to your own views about what the OT prophets wrote.
v.26 is a direct reference to dying on a cross by "these things".
v.27 clearly states that the OT prophets spoke of His sacrificial death on behalf of mankind.

So, because of your views, you are foolish and slow to believe what the OT teaches.

I believe what the prophets spoke; why lie about me? Verse 26 is not about any sacrifice for the people. And verse 27 says nothing about any sacrificial death of Jesus on man's behalf.

Like I said, if the cross is your idol, wear it around your neck with Jesus hanging on it. Kiss it, stroke it, even tell others how much this idol means to you. But, I don't want your idol; I want the words of truth He spoke which give life.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I said Jesus never once mentioned a 'cross' on which He was to die, much less as a sacrifice on a 'cross'.
His lack of stating anything about a 'cross', surely shows how the 'cross' was not the focus on His ministry.
You need to invest in a good concordance.

Of course, since you reject the scriptures including Revelation as being the words of Jesus, you are likely limiting it to the words of Jesus while He was in the flesh and walking the earth before resurrection.

There isn't much sense in trying to reason from the scriptures with someone who rejects the scriptures as the word of God.
 
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EmSw

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You need to invest in a good concordance.

Of course, since you reject the scriptures including Revelation as being the words of Jesus, you are likely limiting it to the words of Jesus while He was in the flesh and walking the earth before resurrection.

There isn't much sense in trying to reason from the scriptures with someone who rejects the scriptures as the word of God.

So Marvin, do you keep His commandments to enter life? Or, do you reject this?

The words of Revelation, huh? I love them. Does this have any meaning to you?

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

And I am sorry you think the words of Jesus while on this earth are insufficient. Do you need Jesus plus something else?
 
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Marvin Knox

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So Marvin, do you keep His commandments to enter life? Or, do you reject this?
The words of Revelation, huh? I love them. Does this have any meaning to you?
Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Where on earth did you get the idea that I don't keep the commandments? Man does not live by bread alone but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God.

But then again I point out that you reject most of the scriptures as proceeding out of the mouth of God.

By the way - I'm up for every crown the Lord chooses to give me. The more to cast at His feet.
And I am sorry you think the words of Jesus while on this earth are insufficient. Do you need Jesus plus something else?
No - unlike you - I need all of Jesus and His works and I need all of His words.

"And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." John 21:25
 
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FreeGrace2

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I just added 1 Cor 15:1-4 which shows the saving gospel and how we are saved “if@ we keep in memory the gospel
But you seems to not acknowledge that and the conditions on it
What I continue to acknowledge is that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients never perishing, from John 10:28.

It just amazes me that you don't acknowledge that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients never perishing.

But, regarding 1 Cor 51:1-4, since your view of the passage violates what Jesus said in John 10:28, obviously it doesn't either say what you think it means, or mean what you think it means.

Here's the key verse:
v.2 - By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

The words "hold firmly" is one word in the Greek and means "possess". So, how does one possess the gospel? By believing it. And, just the same, we are saved if we believe the gospel.

Now for the "vain" part. It means "for no reason".

So, iow, unless one believes and possesses the gospel, whatever they believe is for no reason.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
You are also saved by it, if you hold to the message I proclaimed to you--unless you believed for no purpose.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In addition, you are saved by this Good News if you hold on to the doctrine I taught you, unless you believed it without thinking it over.

New Living Translation
It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you--unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.

The NLT is a good one for understanding the verse, except the word "continue" doesn't occur in the Greek. iow, if you believe Paul's message, RATHER than something that was never true in the first place, you are saved.
 
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FreeGrace2

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If you are going to make up stories about me, please get it right. I never said He didn't mention His death. I said Jesus never once mentioned a 'cross' on which He was to die, much less as a sacrifice on a 'cross'.
So you're going to keep playing the silly "Trinity" game, huh. This would suggest you don't believe in the Trinity just because that word doesn't occur anywhere in the Bible.

His lack of stating anything about a 'cross', surely shows how the 'cross' was not the focus on His ministry.
His sacrifice for mankind's sin was THE focus of His ministry. Why did He say "paid in full" while on the cross, just before He dismissed His spirit? He had just finished paying the sins of mankind, which I know you've rejected.

Men today worship and idolize the cross as the foundation of their belief, even to the point of criminalizing others who do not focus on the 'cross'. And yes, you are guilty of this.
This is full of nonsense. I know of no one who "worships and idolizes the cross". You just have a very twisted imagination.

Evangelicals simple recognize what Jesus did on the cross. Unlike you.

He definitely spoke much more of keeping His commandments, than any death on a cross. He did not say, 'if you love me, make the cross the focus of your belief'.
Here again is more nonsense. The focus on the evangelical's belief is belief in Christ for salvation. You really don't have a clue what you're talking about.

He did not say, 'if you want to enter life, make the cross the foundation of your belief'. In fact, He NEVER once said to regard the cross with great or uncritical admiration or devotion
Again, I know of no one among evangelicals who regards the cross with what you are claiming. Again, you know nothing about which you speak.

If you want the cross as your identification with Jesus, go for it; believe as your heart desires. If that is how you want to remember Jesus, as beaten, bloodied, and hanging on a Roman cross, chase it with all your might.
Mock all you want. God takes note of everything. And since you've rejected all the verses that directly tie Jesus to the cross from the OT writings, your rejetion is all on you.

But I can tell you this, don't ever think this was any kind of sacrifice as stated in the OT. This was not anything near to what God demanded of OT sacrifices.
Foolish person. The OT sacrifices was a shadow of the Messiah's sacrifice.

But just continue to mock, to your heart's desire. But I wouldn't stand near you in a thunderstorm for any amount of money.

Now, as you know what I believe now, do not ever again say anything about any mocking of the cross.
You keep MOCKING THE CROSS. Mocker, mocker, mocker.

I do not put my faith in a godless, Roman ritual which was for the worst of criminals.
I don't either, mocker.

If Jesus was a criminal to you, I can see why you don't believe His words about keeping the commandments to enter life.
First, His death on the cross that you MOCK was ordained by God before the foundation of the world, and I proved it to you.

Second, what Jesus told the rich man was MUCH MORE than the beginning of the conversation that you seem focused on. Jesus proved that the man could NOT keep the commandments. And I've given the verses from the Bible that say that the Law was to lead one to Christ. Which is exactly what Jesus ended up telling the man.

Nothing here says anything about an OT sacrifice. The animal sacrificed was never 'delivered over to the hands of sinners' to be crucified. This showed the depth of hatred the Jews had for Jesus.
MOCKER, MOCKER, MOCKER.

Suffering of the sacrificial animal was not a part of the OT sacrifices.
Do you really think the priest anesthetized the sacrificial animal first? That would be the height of stupidity.

So far, you are batting zero in saying the cross was a sacrifice for sins.
The Bible says it. I only point it out.

Like I said, if the cross is your idol, wear it around your neck with Jesus hanging on it. Kiss it, stroke it, even tell others how much this idol means to you.
Your claim that the cross is an idol is another height of stupidity. It is the basis for my salvation.

But, I don't want your idol; I want the words of truth He spoke which give life.
You really want the words of truth that He spoke that give life?
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

This is how one possesses eternal life.
 
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EmSw

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Where on earth did you get the idea that I don't keep the commandments? Man does not live by bread alone but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God.

Good, but do you keep them to enter life?

But then again I point out that you reject most of the scriptures as proceeding out of the mouth of God.

By the way - I'm up for every crown the Lord chooses to give me. The more to cast at His feet.

Surely you know the crown of life is not a physical crown The emphasis is upon life, not crown. Here are others crowns mentioned which are not physical -

Psalm 8:5
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Psalm 65:11
Thou crownest the year with thy goodness; and thy paths drop fatness.

Psalm 103:4
Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

Proverbs 4:9
She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.

Proverbs 12:4
A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.

Proverbs 14:18
The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.

Proverbs 17:6
Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.

Isaiah 28:1
Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Isaiah 28:5
In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

Isaiah 62:3
Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

No - unlike you - I need all of Jesus and His works and I need all of His words.

Did you know Jesus finished His work before the cross?

John 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Perhaps you think He didn't finish, and had more to do on the cross.

"And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." John 21:25

So, do you need Jesus' words, plus something else? Are Jesus' words insufficient for life, salvation, healing, and faith?
 
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gomerian

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Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.
...
This event in Matthew and Mark and other places is describing an event that started before Jesus died on the cross Jesus told them not to go to the gentiles or samaritans in another place and so this was not after the resurrection. Although some principles can apply to all who are sent out for all times. This was an actual event were they went out and cast ou deals etc. We read about this story in Luke as well where Jesus sent men out to cast out devils etc and they cam back and rejoiced that the devils were subject unto them and jesus said don't rejoice in this but that their names were written in the Lambs bok of life. This shows that they were saved before the cross and yet many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him n John 6:66. This shows that some of those whom were once in the book of life went away and lost salvation.

They went away because Jesus said they never believed.

John 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where He was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him. 65 And He said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father.

Specifically, they didn't believe that Jesus is God... which seems to be a make or brake thing, doesn't it.

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

And since Jesus, after His return, when He gave the 11 the Holy Spirit, gave them all the keys of heaven, He means to tell you that they all believe what Peter said: that Jesus is God.

Judas never believed Jesus. He travelled with Jesus, every day for over 3 years, and didn't believe one word of the Word. How sad is that?
 
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EmSw

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So you're going to keep playing the silly "Trinity" game, huh. This would suggest you don't believe in the Trinity just because that word doesn't occur anywhere in the Bible.

His sacrifice for mankind's sin was THE focus of His ministry. Why did He say "paid in full" while on the cross, just before He dismissed His spirit? He had just finished paying the sins of mankind, which I know you've rejected.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Deuteronomy 19:10
That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Deuteronomy 27:25
Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

2 Kings 24:4
And also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the Lord would not pardon.

Psalm 106:38
And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

Isaiah 59:7
Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Jeremiah 7
5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

Jeremiah 22:3
Thus saith the Lord; execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

Jeremiah 22:17
But thine eyes and thine heart are not but for thy covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for oppression, and for violence, to do it.

Jeremiah 26:15
But know ye for certain, that if ye put me to death, ye shall surely bring innocent blood upon yourselves, and upon this city, and upon the inhabitants thereof: for of a truth the Lord hath sent me unto you to speak all these words in your ears.

Matthew 27:4
Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, what is that to us? see thou to that.

So you think God was please with shedding innocent blood? God strictly forbid shedding innocent blood. Yet you believe what God forbids is your salvation. God NEVER even hinted at shedding innocent blood to pay for the wickedness of men. In fact, God said He will not justify the wicked. -

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

How is it you say God will justify the wicked, by innocent blood no doubt?

As Judas even recognized, it was a 'sin' to betray innocent blood, but yet, you take this 'sin' to be your salvation. I suggest reading the OT to find out what all you do not know about God.

This is full of nonsense. I know of no one who "worships and idolizes the cross". You just have a very twisted imagination.

Evangelicals simple recognize what Jesus did on the cross. Unlike you.

Here again is more nonsense. The focus on the evangelical's belief is belief in Christ for salvation. You really don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Again, I know of no one among evangelicals who regards the cross with what you are claiming. Again, you know nothing about which you speak.

If you don't idolize the cross, then remove the wooden image from your life. You say you don't idolize the cross, but that is all that you have said to me - THE CROSS! THE CROSS! THE CROSS!

Mock all you want. God takes note of everything. And since you've rejected all the verses that directly tie Jesus to the cross from the OT writings, your rejetion is all on you.

Foolish person. The OT sacrifices was a shadow of the Messiah's sacrifice.

But just continue to mock, to your heart's desire. But I wouldn't stand near you in a thunderstorm for any amount of money.

You keep MOCKING THE CROSS. Mocker, mocker, mocker.

I don't either, mocker.

First, His death on the cross that you MOCK was ordained by God before the foundation of the world, and I proved it to you.

You are so childish. How old are you?

Second, what Jesus told the rich man was MUCH MORE than the beginning of the conversation that you seem focused on. Jesus proved that the man could NOT keep the commandments. And I've given the verses from the Bible that say that the Law was to lead one to Christ. Which is exactly what Jesus ended up telling the man.

MOCKER, MOCKER, MOCKER.

Do you really think the priest anesthetized the sacrificial animal first? That would be the height of stupidity.

The Bible says it. I only point it out.

Your claim that the cross is an idol is another height of stupidity. It is the basis for my salvation.

Right there in red is what you worship.

You really want the words of truth that He spoke that give life?
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

This is how one possesses eternal life.

But you said the cross was the basis for your salvation, not the words of Jesus. Your faith is in the Roman cross, not Jesus.
 
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Marvin Knox

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In fact, He NEVER once said to regard the cross with great or uncritical admiration or devotion........ If you want the cross as your identification with Jesus, go for it; believe as your heart desires. If that is how you want to remember Jesus, as beaten, bloodied, and hanging on a Roman cross, chase it with all your might.
These are the words of Jesus as penned by the Apostle Paul.

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

Oh that's right. You don't believe that's the word of God.
 
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EmSw

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These are the words of Jesus as penned by the Apostle Paul.

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

Oh that's right. You don't believe that's the word of God.

So you glory and boast in a pagan, godless wooden cross, Marvin?

I read in the OT we are to glory in the Lord, but never a pagan cross.
 
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Marvin Knox

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So you glory and boast in a pagan, godless wooden cross, Marvin? I read in the OT we are to glory in the Lord, but never a pagan cross.
Godless wooden cross? May God help you.

Try reading the N.T.

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14
 
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FreeGrace2

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So you think God was please with shedding innocent blood? God strictly forbid shedding innocent blood.
Isas 53
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

Apparently you have no idea as to what Isaiah was speaking about.

Yet you believe what God forbids is your salvation.
Regarding Hebrews 9-11, it is clear that you have no idea how the OT is related to the NT.

If you don't idolize the cross, then remove the wooden image from your life. You say you don't idolize the cross, but that is all that you have said to me - THE CROSS! THE CROSS! THE CROSS!
See? Just more MOCKING, MOCKING, MOCKING. But to your own end.

The Christian symbol is the cross. Empty for evangelicals because Jesus rose from the dead in resurrection, but a body on it for Catholics, for I don't know what reason.

But the point is that the cross is central to salvation. Whether you like it or not.

But you said the cross was the basis for your salvation, not the words of Jesus. Your faith is in the Roman cross, not Jesus.
Roman is irrelevant. But you like to bring in irrelevant things, as dodges of your pathetic theology.

Jesus spoke of His death on a cross, even though He didn't use the word "cross". Tough bite for you.

John 12:32-33
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

John 18:31,32
31 Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.” “But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected.
32 This took place to fulfill what Jesus had said about the kind of death he was going to die.

Those who don't understand these verses just don't want to.[/QUOTE]
 
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EmSw

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Godless wooden cross? May God help you.

Try reading the N.T.

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

Do you think the cross was godly? Do you think OT sacrifices were carried out on a cross?

Try reading the OT.

Why are you boasting in a pagan cross?

Surely you aren't thinking the altar upon which a sacrifice was made is akin to a pagan cross.
 
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EmSw

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Isas 53
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

Apparently you have no idea as to what Isaiah was speaking about.

On the contrary free gracer. So much is in these passages from Isaiah. All you can see is a human sacrifice. All of the above have no relevance at all with OT sacrifices...absolutely nothing!

I see you haven't made any comment about, 'we all, like sheep, have gone astray'. This puts your OSAS in shambles. In case you didn't realize, Jesus spoke of these same 'lost' sheep of Israel. You know, the ones He came to seek and SAVE!

Regarding Hebrews 9-11, it is clear that you have no idea how the OT is related to the NT.

See? Just more MOCKING, MOCKING, MOCKING. But to your own end.

If I were bogged down by your beliefs, you would be right; I would have no idea how the OT is related to the NT. But I am not bogged down by the limited and faint sight of your beliefs.

If one thing comes from our discussions if your faulty beliefs of OSAS. You so much want to condemn me, and it has nothing to do with faith. It doesn't matter that I have believed; it's just that I haven't believed as you do, and that is cause for loss of salvation.

The Christian symbol is the cross. Empty for evangelicals because Jesus rose from the dead in resurrection, but a body on it for Catholics, for I don't know what reason.

But the point is that the cross is central to salvation. Whether you like it or not.

Actually the symbol used by early Christians was a fish.

As I said, the cross is central to your salvation, thus an object of worship.

Roman is irrelevant. But you like to bring in irrelevant things, as dodges of your pathetic theology.

Jesus spoke of His death on a cross, even though He didn't use the word "cross". Tough bite for you.

John 12:32-33
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

John 18:31,32
31 Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.” “But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected.
32 This took place to fulfill what Jesus had said about the kind of death he was going to die.

Those who don't understand these verses just don't want to.

A Roman cross is not irrelevant; it was used as a form of Roman punishment for the vilest of criminals. The Jews never used a cross for punishment, nor for sacrifices. If Jesus was stoned, it would be a different story. But, as I have said before, you know very little of the OT. And you prove me right every day.
 
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EmSw

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Do you think the cross was godly? Do you think OT sacrifices were carried out on a cross?

Try reading the OT.

Why are you boasting in a pagan cross?

Surely you aren't thinking the altar upon which a sacrifice was made is akin to a pagan cross.

One more thing, Marvin. I noticed in another thread you mentioned that you believe in the literal blood of Jesus. Please tell us how you have any life, as indicated from the following passages -

John 6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Please tell us when you drank His literal blood and ate His literal flesh. I don't believe you can tell us because you haven't. Then as Jesus said, you have no life, eternal life this is, in you.

Also you might want to tell us when you have washed your robes and made them clean in His literal blood.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Try reading the OT.
Why haven't you?
Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Why are you boasting in a pagan cross?
John 12
32 And I, when I am lifted upfrom the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

John 18
31 Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.” “But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected.
32 This took place to fulfill what Jesus had said about the kind of death he was going to die.

That's why. Paul was right. You are dead wrong, mocker.

Surely you aren't thinking the altar upon which a sacrifice was made is akin to a pagan cross.
Marvin and I are thinking exactly what th Bible teaches, mocker.
 
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FreeGrace2

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On the contrary free gracer. So much is in these passages from Isaiah. All you can see is a human sacrifice. All of the above have no relevance at all with OT sacrifices...absolutely nothing!
Go ahead and mock all you want. I've shown the verses that refute your mockery.

I see you haven't made any comment about, 'we all, like sheep, have gone astray'. This puts your OSAS in shambles.
First, I've frequently noted that Jesus' death on a cross was for everyone, which is what "we all, like sheep, have gone astray". Which is the very reason Jesus came to earth to die on a cross to pay the sin debt and reconcile humanity to God, so that He could save by grace through faith those who believe.

Second, your comment about OSAS being in shambles from that statement is absurd.

But I'll explain what totally puts OSNAS in shambles is what Jesus said in John 5:24, and 10:28.

In case you didn't realize, Jesus spoke of these same 'lost' sheep of Israel. You know, the ones He came to seek and SAVE!
He came to save all these:
For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God.

Rom 5:6 You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

If I were bogged down by your beliefs, you would be right; I would have no idea how the OT is related to the NT.
On the contrary, I DO know exactly how the OT is related to the NT, and I proved it by all the Scriptures I've shared, which you've mocked and rejected.

But I am not bogged down by the limited and faint sight of ysour beliefs.
You have no idea of where your deceived views come from. But they sure don't come from the Bible.

If one thing comes from our discussions if your faulty beliefs of OSAS.
This mocks what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.

You so much want to condemn me, and it has nothing to do with faith.
Your opinions continue to be in error. I have no interest in condemning anyone. That is just stupid. I have every interest in defending truth, which comes from the Bible, not your twisted perverted misunderstanding of it.

Your condemnation comes directly FROM the Bible. John 5:39 - You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

Jesus was referring to the OT Scriptures, obviously.

It doesn't matter that I have believed; it's just that I haven't believed as you do, and that is cause for loss of salvation.
This is exactly what condemns you. Actually, your view of saving faith doesn't align with Scripture either. Double condemnation.

As I said, the cross is central to your salvation, thus an object of worship.
Your opinion is in error. Again.

A Roman cross is not irrelevant; it was used as a form of Roman punishment for the vilest of criminals. The Jews never used a cross for punishment, nor for sacrifices.
John 18:31,32 refutes your error. The Jews wanted Jesus executed by the Romans for His claim of being the Son of God, Deity.
 
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EmSw

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Go ahead and mock all you want. I've shown the verses that refute your mockery.

As regards the Lord's kingdom on earth, that is, His Church, because its matters of doctrine are drawn from the literal sense of the Word it is inevitably varying so far as these are concerned. That is to say, one group declares that this idea is the truth of faith because it is so stated in the Word, while another declares that that idea is the truth because that likewise is stated there, and so on.

Consequently because its matters of doctrine are drawn from the literal sense of the Word the Lord's Church differs from one group to the next, and not only from group to group but sometimes from individual to individual within a group. But dissent in matters of doctrine concerning faith does not mean that the Church cannot be one Church, provided all are of one mind in willing what is good and doing it.
 
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Let it be told briefly how the Lord casts out lusts of evil occupying the internal man from birth and in their place bestows affections of good when a man on his part removes the evils as sins. It was shown earlier that man possesses a natural, a spiritual and a celestial mind, that he is only in the natural mind as long as he is in lusts of evil and their enjoyments, and that during this time the spiritual mind is closed.

But as soon as a man on self-examination confesses evils to be sins against God because they are contrary to divine laws and accordingly resolves to desist from them, the Lord opens the spiritual mind, enters the natural by affections of truth and good, enters the reason, and by the reason puts into order what is disordered below in the natural. It is this that strikes the man as a battle, and strikes those who have indulged much in enjoyments of evil as temptation, for when the order of its thinking is inverted the lower mind suffers pain.

Inasmuch as the battle is against what is in the man himself and what he feels to be his, and no one can fight against himself except from a more interior self and from freedom in it, it follows that the internal man fights against the external and does so from freedom, and compels the external to obey. This, then, is compelling oneself, and, clearly, it is not contrary to liberty and rationality, but in accord with them.
 
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