How does Jesus save us?

Fish14 said:

I know the basics, but would like to have a deeper understanding of atonement.

I believe Jesus took our guilt and sins upon himself and died because of them (He was a sacrifice). But does this happen in the opposite direction? Do we also get His righteousness in return, or does the removal of sin make us righteous in itself?

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To be righteous we need to repent of our sin.

Righteous has a range of meanings. I believe dreadnought is speaking of someone whose actions are right. This is the understanding the Reformers had. They taught that our righteousness was always "alien," that is it was Christ's, not our own. However as Paul says, faith unites us to Christ. So while we never become fully righteous on our own, still, through union with Christ his righteous works to regenerate us.

However righteousness has another meaning, which is what Paul often uses. It can mean being in good standing with God. As Christ's people, we are righteous in this sense.

Fish14 said:

I know the basics, but would like to have a deeper understanding of atonement.
I believe Jesus took our guilt and sins upon himself and died because of them (He was a sacrifice). But does this happen in the opposite direction? Do we also get His righteousness in return, or does the removal of sin make us righteous in itself?

Click to expand...

When Jesus took our sins to the cross and the grave, He cleansed us of any and all sin IF & WHEN we accept Him as our Lord and Savior. When we do, God only sees Christ's Righteousness in us , not our filthy sins. He not only is our Savior, He is also our advocate with the Father, He stands in our defense.
ronandcarol

" Substitutionary Atonement "...What is it ??

Double IMPUTATION:
1. He took our sins
2. We receive His Righteousness

2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Fish14 said:

Hedrick, even though I have talked with you about this on my other threads, I don't still understand one thing. How does faith unite us to Christ so that we may be regenerated by His works?

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I think the most explicit description of the atonement and regeneration is Rom 6. It says that as we are united with Christ in death so we are united with him in resurrection. It's not by his works that we are regenerated according to Paul, but by his death and resurrection.

Ah, there was a critical typo in my post. I said "So while we never become fully righteous on our own, still, through union with Christ his righteous works to regenerate us." I meant to say "his righteousness works in us." I never meant to refer to his righteous works. Even with the correct word, I'm describing a view with which I have at least some disagreement. I think the Reformers misunderstood what Paul meant by righteousness.

Fish14 said:

With Christ's righteousness, do you mean that God sees the actual works of Jesus in us, or that we are just as righteous as Him?

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1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

It is the one who practices righteousness who is righteous.

EmSw said:

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

It is the one who practices righteousness who is righteous.

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If taken alone, this verse sounds Pelagian; we just have to do the right thing. However if you look at the whole section, it goes on to say that Christ came to change us. John doesn't use the same terminology as Paul, and certainly not Calvin, but like them he says that Christ's people are changed by him, and enabled to do right (though despite the language here, elsewhere he recognizes that we don't do it perfectly).

hedrick said:

If taken alone, this verse sounds Pelagian; we just have to do the right thing. However if you look at the whole section, it goes on to say that Christ came to change us. John doesn't use the same terminology as Paul, and certainly not Calvin, but like them he says that Christ's people are changed by him, and enabled to do right (though despite the language here, elsewhere he recognizes that we don't do it perfectly).

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I did read this later on in that chapter, verse 10 -

Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Fish14 said:

Should we do righteous works in order to be righteous? It's impossible because we sin all the time even as believers.

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Let's see what John says - 'He who practices righteousness is righteous'.

Hopefully, we don't continually commit sin over and over.

What would the father in the prodigal son story "do" to have this younger son, become like himself? He has taken an unbelievable insult from this young man, given this son money he knows will be wasted, and he has not gone after the son in hopes he will change (if he sends servants after this son he will come back even more belligerent), and the father than waits in hopes of the son’s repentance. The father like God is not going to force us into humbly correctly accepting his pure charity (Love) but will do everything He can to persuade us.

God is allowing this unbelievable huge act of Love in allowing His only son to be tortured, humiliated and murdered, but to say it is to help satan or Himself to accomplish some task, takes the benefit away from humans, while humans seem to be the reason.

If this huge ransom payment is made “for sinful man” then why not “to sinful man”, if it would help sinful man to repent? (That is also what “for” means it is given “to” you).

When the Kingdom does come on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) what would Christ do to help humble 3000 enough to repent, accept forgiveness (pure charity), and take on the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit? This is not going to be easy for these 3000, because the Messiah is dead, they have an excellent God given religious belief and do not listen to strange teachers and strange teaching.

Do they not have to fearfully ask “What must we do?” to accept the baptism answer at this time (Acts 2:38?

But for them to ask that question do they first have to experience a death blow to their heart (Acts 2:37)?

How will they experience that death blow without first feeling they just tortured, humiliated and murdered the Messiah?

Yet how can they know they crucified the Messiah unless Peter tells them “You crucified the Messiah”?

And how can Peter say: “you crucified the Messiah”, if Christ does not go to the cross?

Is Christ’s Love for those who crucified him, great enough for Him to allow wicked men to crucify him, so they could feel a death blow to their heart to be humble enough to accept salvation?

It works for us today also.

Fish14 said:

I know the basics, but would like to have a deeper understanding of atonement.

I believe Jesus took our guilt and sins upon himself and died because of them (He was a sacrifice). But does this happen in the opposite direction? Do we also get His righteousness in return, or does the removal of sin make us righteous in itself?

Click to expand...

Follow.

John 12:50 "And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak."

John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand."

And keep following.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, "If ye continue in My word, [then] are ye My disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Revelation 3:8 "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name."

Dying you shall die is like believe and keep believing. They're not translated as such, but that's what the verses actually say. Believing means trusting. You can't say you trust someone if you fail to take their advice. Jesus tells us what we must do. Do we take His advice... or not? Because it really is that simple.

Fish14 said:

I know the basics, but would like to have a deeper understanding of atonement.

I believe Jesus took our guilt and sins upon himself and died because of them (He was a sacrifice). But does this happen in the opposite direction? Do we also get His righteousness in return, or does the removal of sin make us righteous in itself?

Click to expand...

Salvation in Christ comes when He Joins us to Himself and Himself to us...
For we are baptized into Christ...
We have put on Christ...

Forgiveness of sins is needed for that Joining - The Wedding of the Lamb...
We repent unto Baptism wherein Christ makes us totally clean and joins us together with Him and we become members of His Body, the Ekklesia, receiving the Seal of the Holy Spirit...

THAT is HOW He does it...

So HOW does He do THAT???

WAY above MY paygrade...

HOW He does it is known, for He commanded the 11 Apostles:
"GO thereby (in this power)...
DISCIPLE all the nations...
TEACHING the to carefully observe ALL that I have commanded you
BAPTIZING them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Arsenios

Fish14 said:

Should we do righteous works in order to be righteous? It's impossible because we sin all the time even as believers.

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Righteous works refer to the work that God has prepared for His people - For we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God has pre-ordained (Ephesian 2:10).

Since these righteous works are from God, they are the righteousness of God. God's power will ensure those works are completed through us, but we need to trust (faith in) God. Thus, Paul preaches: the just must live by faith!

Fish14 said:

I know the basics, but would like to have a deeper understanding of atonement.

I believe Jesus took our guilt and sins upon himself and died because of them (He was a sacrifice). But does this happen in the opposite direction? Do we also get His righteousness in return, or does the removal of sin make us righteous in itself?

Click to expand...

The way I view the atonement is not that God pretended to be guilty of the sins of the world and poured his wrath on this innocent man, but rather God stood aside allowing wicked men to murder the innocent.

God is just. One arm of justice is to compensate victims of unjustified suffering. As a matter of satisfying justice God compensated Jesus for his unjustified suffering and with that compensation Christ paid our debt.

As for righteousness, much as Reformed Theology is of the opinion that Christ's righteous life was imputed to us, I view that differently. We are first justified - reckoned righteous - because are sins are forgiven and therefore not taking into account. This as opposed to God "pretending" that we lived Jesus righteous life.

And while I spoke of a status of righteousness, there is also righteous behavior imparted to us through the process of sanctification leading to glorification. Having come to faith we are given the Holy Spirit who makes us children of God, which affects our behavior, such that it becomes natural to do what is right. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 (Again this is in contrast to Reformed Theology which assume regeneration occurs prior to faith)