Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

BNR32FAN said:

““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

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And what is the will of the Father.
John
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Or do you believe we are saved by works?

BNR32FAN said:

Now do you see that by looking at single verses that your beliefs are wrong? If you put together all of the teachings of the Bible you will see that there is more than just believing in Jesus to be saved. Obedience and devotion is also required hence repentance and fruit. Look at these examples of people who will not be saved. These verses pertaining to believers only.

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If it takes more than believing to be saved, then it would be salvation by works.
Commonly known as Faith plus works.
Do you see how you are using these verses out of context, trying to make them say what they were never intended to say?

BNR32FAN said:

A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit.

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Can an oak tree become an elm?
Can a bad tree become a good tree?
Can a good tree become a bad tree.
Can a saint become a sinner?

BNR32FAN said:

What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?


James 2:14

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That person doesn't have faith given to him by God.
If I tell you I have a million dollars, but none of my bills are paid, do you really think I have a million dollars?
Just saying you have something, doesn't mean you have it.

BNR32FAN said:

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”

James 2:19-20

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The demons aren't trusting in Jesus for there salvation, they just believe He exists.

BNR32FAN said:

So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.


James 2:17

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This verse in context is proving faith. Nothing about losing it. But whether you do or don't have it.
Also by you putting this verse here like this, it contradicts what Paul says in Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

BNR32FAN said:

Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.


James 2:21-24

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When was Abraham justified?
Long before he was going to sacrifice Isaac.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

BNR32FAN said:

Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road. Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.


James 2:25-26

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Rahab was shown to who, God doesn't need a demonstration, He knows what is in our hearts.
By the way, I never said faith doesn't work. Faith works.
But works do not save. We are justified apart from works.
And because we are justified we do the works that God planned for us.
But whether or not those works get done, we are still justified.
Because God said, I will be merciful to there unrighteousness, and there sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.

BNR32FAN said:

Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me. “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come. “A tree is identified by its fruit. If a tree is good, its fruit will be good. If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad. You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.


Matthew 12:30-37

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This is called the unforgivabe sin. A believer cannot commit this sin.
Denying the Holy Spirit when He convicts the unbeliever of sin. John 16:7-8
And if you are a believer, you did not resist the Holy Spirit when He convicted you of unbelief.

BNR32FAN said:

Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.


Matthew 7:15-20

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So if a person is a believer they will bear fruit.
If they aren't a believer they won't bear fruit.
But, you have this strange idea that a good tree can start bearing bad fruit and will no longer be a good tree.
Jesus said that a good tree can't bear bad fruit.

BNR32FAN said:

Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.


Matthew 7:24-27

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Those who have accepted Christ are building there house on the rock.
Those who reject Jesus Christ are building there house on sand.

BNR32FAN said:

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.


John 15:1-6

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Who gathers these branches?
Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
Also it was prophesied about Jesus, "A bruised reed will He not break, and the smoking flax He will not quench".
Isaiah 42:3
It will be said by men of people like this, "And you call yourself a Christian"?

BNR32FAN said:

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21

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Do you see that word "Quarreling", none of us here in this thread are going to Heaven by your interpretation of this verse.
The kingdom of God is not just referring to Heaven.
The kingdom of God is in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. Romans 14:17
Jesus said the kingdom of God does not come with observation but is within you. Luke 17:20-21
This would be more accurately translated as "Among you". Jesus said this to Pharisees, and we know the kingdom of God was not in them.

BNR32FAN said:

Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


Matthew 3:10

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As Jesus said, "A bad tree can't bear good fruit, and a good tree can't bear bad fruit".

BNR32FAN said:

Let them be blotted out of the book of life, And not be written with the righteous.


Psalms 69:28

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Let's look at this verse in context.
69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
69:22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.
69:23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
69:24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
69:26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
69:27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
Do you think these people were ever righteous?

BNR32FAN said:

I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


Revelation 20:12-15

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So no believers were thrown into the lake of fire?
I must confess I am confues why this verse is here, as there is nothing here that says you can lose your salvation.

BNR32FAN said:

Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Revelation 21:27

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So we get to enter if our names are written in the Book of life as long as we don't practice shameful idolatry and dishonesty. This verse says nothing about needing to do works.
I bet you are going to say, "It's implied".

BNR32FAN said:

For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power.


1 Corinthians 4:20

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You are going to have to do some proper exegesis on this to show that salvation can be lost.

BNR32FAN said:

I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will produce the proper fruit.


Matthew 21:43

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Jesus was talking to Pharisees of Israel.
The kingdom of God was to be taken away and given to the church.

BNR32FAN said:

But Jesus told him, “Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God.


Luke 9:62

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This is a great verse to show eternal security.
9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Some say that they can believe and later turn away.
Jesus says no, there is no looking back.
If you make a decision to follow God, you are now His. You should know what you are doing first.
Once you belong to Him, you belong to Him, period.

BNR32FAN said:

Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.


Ephesians 5:3-6

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God will never be angry with a believer, He promised. Isaiah 54:9-10
So the ones who are doing such things aren't believers.

BNR32FAN said:

But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.


Matthew 25:31-46

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Do you honestly believe that Jesus is saying if we visit those who are sick and in prison and give cups of cold water in His name will get us a place in Heaven?
There are 2 groups here.
Those who are Blessed of the Father.
Those who are cursed.
The Blessed show that they are blessed.
The cursed prove they are cursed.

BNR32FAN said:

esus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!


Matthew 13:37-43

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Tares = those who are evil.
Wheat = those who are righteous.
No matter how hard you try, a tare can't become wheat. Unless God does the changing. 2 Cor 5:17
No matter how hard you try, wheat can't become a tare. God won't do this.

BNR32FAN said:

A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 24:45-51

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And how can people prepare themselves for the coming of Jesus?
By doing good works?
Stopping sin in there life?
What about accepting Jesus as Savior? Would that work.

BNR32FAN said:

All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:7-8

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If you are a believer, you are not an unbeliever.
You are one of the victorious ones, having overcome unbelief.

BNR32FAN said:

Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.


Matthew 18:3-10

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This passage shows the seriousness of the need to change and become a believer.
How does this passage say that someone can lose there salvation.

I don't know where you get the idea that once you belong to God, He is going to give you up.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Paul still says to these people that were doing such things as the Corinthians were doing that they still belonged to God, they were bought with a price, there bodies were the temple of the Holy Ghost.
And because of this they should glorify God in there spirit and there body.

justbyfaith said:

See Job 28:28. 1 John 4:13 is not talking about THE FEAR OF THE LORD; unless you want to say that perfect love casts out wisdom ans understanding...which you would have to say if you properly connect the dots.

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I gave that verse for a post that wasn't talking about the FEAR OF THE LORD which is a healthy fear/awe
No that post said we should fear losing our salvation, we should serve God because we are afraid of God punishing us with loss of salvation.
We should never be afraid of God.
We should fear God.

Doug Melven said:

And what is the will of the Father.
John
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Or do you believe we are saved by works?

If it takes more than believing to be saved, then it would be salvation by works.
Commonly known as Faith plus works.
Do you see how you are using these verses out of context, trying to make them say what they were never intended to say?

Can an oak tree become an elm?
Can a bad tree become a good tree?
Can a good tree become a bad tree.
Can a saint become a sinner?


That person doesn't have faith given to him by God.
If I tell you I have a million dollars, but none of my bills are paid, do you really think I have a million dollars?
Just saying you have something, doesn't mean you have it.


The demons aren't trusting in Jesus for there salvation, they just believe He exists.

This verse in context is proving faith. Nothing about losing it. But whether you do or don't have it.
Also by you putting this verse here like this, it contradicts what Paul says in Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

When was Abraham justified?
Long before he was going to sacrifice Isaac.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rahab was shown to who, God doesn't need a demonstration, He knows what is in our hearts.
By the way, I never said faith doesn't work. Faith works.
But works do not save. We are justified apart from works.
And because we are justified we do the works that God planned for us.
But whether or not those works get done, we are still justified.
Because God said, I will be merciful to there unrighteousness, and there sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.


This is called the unforgivabe sin. A believer cannot commit this sin.
Denying the Holy Spirit when He convicts the unbeliever of sin. John 16:7-8
And if you are a believer, you did not resist the Holy Spirit when He convicted you of unbelief.

So if a person is a believer they will bear fruit.
If they aren't a believer they won't bear fruit.
But, you have this strange idea that a good tree can start bearing bad fruit and will no longer be a good tree.
Jesus said that a good tree can't bear bad fruit.

Those who have accepted Christ are building there house on the rock.
Those who reject Jesus Christ are building there house on sand.

Who gathers these branches?
Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
Also it was prophesied about Jesus, "A bruised reed will He not break, and the smoking flax He will not quench".
Isaiah 42:3
It will be said by men of people like this, "And you call yourself a Christian"?

Do you see that word "Quarreling", none of us here in this thread are going to Heaven by your interpretation of this verse.
The kingdom of God is not just referring to Heaven.
The kingdom of God is in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. Romans 14:17
Jesus said the kingdom of God does not come with observation but is within you. Luke 17:20-21
This would be more accurately translated as "Among you". Jesus said this to Pharisees, and we know the kingdom of God was not in them.

As Jesus said, "A bad tree can't bear good fruit, and a good tree can't bear bad fruit".

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The NT is so simple. You make it so difficult!

Galatians 6:9-10
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.


1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?



Hebrews 13:16
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

And let us not forget:

John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Romans 2:5-11
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;


I've never heard anyone on any of these threads say that works save us. Also, those that are unsaved do not need to work, they are already lost.

Those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus are required to do good works because Jesus is their teacher and Jesus, as did Paul, attested to the fact that we must do good in order to qualify to be inserted into the Kingdom of God.

Doug Melven said:

And what is the will of the Father.
John
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Or do you believe we are saved by works?

If it takes more than believing to be saved, then it would be salvation by works.
Commonly known as Faith plus works.
Do you see how you are using these verses out of context, trying to make them say what they were never intended to say?

Can an oak tree become an elm?
Can a bad tree become a good tree?
Can a good tree become a bad tree.
Can a saint become a sinner?


That person doesn't have faith given to him by God.
If I tell you I have a million dollars, but none of my bills are paid, do you really think I have a million dollars?
Just saying you have something, doesn't mean you have it.


The demons aren't trusting in Jesus for there salvation, they just believe He exists.

This verse in context is proving faith. Nothing about losing it. But whether you do or don't have it.
Also by you putting this verse here like this, it contradicts what Paul says in Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

When was Abraham justified?
Long before he was going to sacrifice Isaac.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rahab was shown to who, God doesn't need a demonstration, He knows what is in our hearts.
By the way, I never said faith doesn't work. Faith works.
But works do not save. We are justified apart from works.
And because we are justified we do the works that God planned for us.
But whether or not those works get done, we are still justified.
Because God said, I will be merciful to there unrighteousness, and there sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.


This is called the unforgivabe sin. A believer cannot commit this sin.
Denying the Holy Spirit when He convicts the unbeliever of sin. John 16:7-8
And if you are a believer, you did not resist the Holy Spirit when He convicted you of unbelief.

So if a person is a believer they will bear fruit.
If they aren't a believer they won't bear fruit.
But, you have this strange idea that a good tree can start bearing bad fruit and will no longer be a good tree.
Jesus said that a good tree can't bear bad fruit.

Those who have accepted Christ are building there house on the rock.
Those who reject Jesus Christ are building there house on sand.

Who gathers these branches?
Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
Also it was prophesied about Jesus, "A bruised reed will He not break, and the smoking flax He will not quench".
Isaiah 42:3
It will be said by men of people like this, "And you call yourself a Christian"?

Do you see that word "Quarreling", none of us here in this thread are going to Heaven by your interpretation of this verse.
The kingdom of God is not just referring to Heaven.
The kingdom of God is in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. Romans 14:17
Jesus said the kingdom of God does not come with observation but is within you. Luke 17:20-21
This would be more accurately translated as "Among you". Jesus said this to Pharisees, and we know the kingdom of God was not in them.

As Jesus said, "A bad tree can't bear good fruit, and a good tree can't bear bad fruit".

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You’ve proven that you don’t understand the context of any of these verses. First of all about your quote from John 6 did you happen to notice verse 45?

“As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬

So what does that say about the person who doesn’t listen to God’s teachings? I will pray for you. Unfortunately I’m at work and can’t address all these right now but rest assured that I will this evening. God bless you my friend.

Doug Melven said:

I gave that verse for a post that wasn't talking about the FEAR OF THE LORD which is a healthy fear/awe
No that post said we should fear losing our salvation, we should serve God because we are afraid of God punishing us with loss of salvation.
We should never be afraid of God.
We should fear God.

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DM, that post was directed to me. I had asked you to please explain better but you might have missed it.

I still don't understand!
Are you saying we should do our good deeds because we're afraid of God and of losing our salvation??

paul becke said:

I pointed out that some of his children are, according to his own words, disobedient 'children of darkness'.

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I missed that part where a child of God can be a child of darkness.
We are children of light, so let us walk in the light.

paul becke said:

What does the rich man and Lazarus have to do with losing salvation?
The rich man lost the prospect of salvation for which he had been created by setting his heart 'where his treasure lay', on material riches.

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How is losing the prospect of salvation is the same as losing salvation that you already possess?

paul becke said:

And are you unfamiliar with the passage in the Old Testament in which it is stated that when a good man turns bad, he shall die for his sins, and rightly so ; whereas, when a bad man is converted to leading a virtuous life, he shall be saved. I believe I cited this passage earlier (not verbatim, but close enough).

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Yes I am familiar with that passage.
So you are saying we do not need to trust Jesus, we can just do it on our own.
Because that passage talks about a person's own righteousness, not what he received from God.

paul becke said:

What does growing into maturity have to do with losing salvation?'
Why do you find it unpalatable that we should be required by God to grow in the Spirit in the normal healthy way that we grow in the flesh ?

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I think maturing is a good thing, we should grow.
Does a parent disown a child because they are not maturing?
Believers who do not grow are weak sickly believers.
They are still believers though.
Look at the Corinthian church. Paul said he could not speak unto them as spiritual, but as carnal. They were not growing.
In Hebrews 5 the writer says he wants to speak to them about meat, but they are not maturing, they should have matured, but they didn't. They were still believers. Hebrews 5:11-14

GodsGrace101 said:

The NT is so simple. You make it so difficult!

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I am the one who makes it simple. Those who say you can lose a free gift make it difficult.
Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

GodsGrace101 said:

Those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus are required to do good works because Jesus is their teacher and Jesus, as did Paul, attested to the fact that we must do good in order to qualify to be inserted into the Kingdom of God.

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Do a concordance search for "Kingdom of God".
You will see it is not talking about only Heaven. Believers who do the things listed in Galatians 5:19-21 will not be walking in love, joy peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and temperance.

Doug Melven said:

I am the one who makes it simple. Those who say you can lose a free gift make it difficult.
Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.


Do a concordance search for "Kingdom of God".
You will see it is not talking about only Heaven. Believers who do the things listed in Galatians 5:19-21 will not be walking in love, joy peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and temperance.

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LOL
No concordance search necessary.
Jesus' mission was to declare the Kingdom of God and show us how to belong to it so the world could be changed.
Jesus mentions this Kingdom, which is right here right now, more than 100X. He mentions salvation about 5 or 6 times.

However, I find that those who do not believe salvation can be lost always refer to the fact that everything written by Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John, etc. is regarding our not having a good life here on earth and has nothing to do with our salvation.

The most clear scripture is John 15:1-6
Many times Jesus spoke about the branches being CUT OFF.
Not fixed, not given another chance, CUT OFF means to severe from the Kingdom or from the vine of life. If Jesus gives us life through the vine and we are CUT OFF, our life-line to the vine is ended and we die spiritually.

In John 15 JESUS says that if we do NOT ABIDE IN HIM, we will be thrown away as a branch, it will dry up because it has been severed from the trunk, and then the useless branches will be picked up, cast into the fire and burned.

We can speak about the sealing of the Holy Spirit if you wish, but I prefer to believe JESUS.

Doug Melven said:

Let's look at this verse in context.
69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
69:22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.
69:23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
69:24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
69:26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
69:27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
Do you think these people were ever righteous?

So no believers were thrown into the lake of fire?
I must confess I am confues why this verse is here, as there is nothing here that says you can lose your salvation.

So we get to enter if our names are written in the Book of life as long as we don't practice shameful idolatry and dishonesty. This verse says nothing about needing to do works.
I bet you are going to say, "It's implied".

You are going to have to do some proper exegesis on this to show that salvation can be lost.

Jesus was talking to Pharisees of Israel.
The kingdom of God was to be taken away and given to the church.

This is a great verse to show eternal security.
9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Some say that they can believe and later turn away.
Jesus says no, there is no looking back.
If you make a decision to follow God, you are now His. You should know what you are doing first.
Once you belong to Him, you belong to Him, period.

God will never be angry with a believer, He promised. Isaiah 54:9-10
So the ones who are doing such things aren't believers.


Do you honestly believe that Jesus is saying if we visit those who are sick and in prison and give cups of cold water in His name will get us a place in Heaven?
There are 2 groups here.
Those who are Blessed of the Father.
Those who are cursed.
The Blessed show that they are blessed.
The cursed prove they are cursed.

Tares = those who are evil.
Wheat = those who are righteous.
No matter how hard you try, a tare can't become wheat. Unless God does the changing. 2 Cor 5:17
No matter how hard you try, wheat can't become a tare. God won't do this.


And how can people prepare themselves for the coming of Jesus?
By doing good works?
Stopping sin in there life?
What about accepting Jesus as Savior? Would that work.

If you are a believer, you are not an unbeliever.
You are one of the victorious ones, having overcome unbelief.
This passage shows the seriousness of the need to change and become a believer.
How does this passage say that someone can lose there salvation.

I don't know where you get the idea that once you belong to God, He is going to give you up.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Paul still says to these people that were doing such things as the Corinthians were doing that they still belonged to God, they were bought with a price, there bodies were the temple of the Holy Ghost.
And because of this they should glorify God in there spirit and there body.

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Yes indeed the people referred to in Psalms 69:28 were indeed going to receive salvation.

“Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:27‬

If someone has been written in the book of life they are saved but they can also be blotted out of the book of life. People are not written in the book of life unless they will have salvation.

“And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬

The point of posting Psalms 69:28 is to show that those who are written in the book of life can be blotted out. This is a clear indication of someone having salvation and then losing it.

GodsGrace101 said:

A child certainly does sin,,,
Lying
Calling other children bad names
Hitting them
Disobeying parents
Coveting
Etc.

It's just that they don't understand that it's "sinning" so God does not hold them accountable until the age of reason. Which I said is different for everyone.

I believe the word of God has to back up everything we say, however don't you agree that we get help from theologians?

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I never said how young of a child. Do you think a baby lies, disobeys parents? I certainly don't believe in automatic salvation of a 14 year old or a 10 year old for that matter ...

I would like to see you prove I'm wrong from scripture, but even more so I like to see you prove that we are responsible for sin first at age of reason.

Of course it would be great if you are right, I just haven't seen it in scripture. It feels more like an idea arisen to support adult baptism.

BNR32FAN said in post #388:

OSAS does not coincide with all the scriptures it only seems to fit some of them.

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Great point.

For even when what one verse says appears plain, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it does not say, things which would contradict what other verses say. To arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13). Our doctrine must be based on what the entire Bible says (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and not just on what some unqualified verses say.

An example of an unqualified verse would be John 3:36. We cannot say that it means that all we have to believe is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. For John 3:36 must be qualified by, for example, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (and vice versa). We have to believe both that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day. So when John 3:36 is qualified, something is added to it, not subtracted from it. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 adds further belief requirements to John 3:36 (and vice versa). 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not contradict the belief requirement of John 3:36 (or vice versa).

Another way that John 3:36 must be qualified is we cannot say that it means that all that Christians have to do is believe for at least one moment during their lifetime. For John 3:36 must be qualified by other verses which show that Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue to believe to the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23). And this is just one of the conditions which the Bible as a whole shows must be met in order for Christians to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Doug Melven said in post #391:

[Jer.] 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

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Note that Jeremiah 32:40 does not mean once-saved-always-saved. For the fear of God comes via His Spirit (Isaiah 11:2). And Christians can wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to depart from God, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Christians are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of Christians by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), at His Second Coming, when some Christians will end up losing their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God. For Satan knows that it is the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in unrepentant sin (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and it is by the fear of God that people depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they are on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of God's Word the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), when the whole Bible is taken into consideration, instead of just taking a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6).

Some Christians mistakenly think that they should not have any fear of God, because they misunderstand, for example, 1 John 4:18 and 2 Timothy 1:7.

But it is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

When 2 Timothy 1:7 says that God has not given Christians the spirit of "fear", the original Greek word (G1167) means "timidity". And the context means that a Christian is not to be timid before people (cf. Proverbs 28:1) because he is ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:8), or afraid of suffering affliction from people for preaching the Gospel (2 Timothy 1:8b, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 13:6). So 2 Timothy 1:7 means that God has not given Christians the spirit of the fear of people (Proverbs 29:25, Matthew 10:28). God has given Christians the Spirit of the fear of God (Matthew 10:28b, Isaiah 11:2, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, 1 Peter 2:17, Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). But Christians can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench God's Holy Spirit within them (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).

Doug Melven said in post #391:

Why would God promise not to forsake if they were doing everything right?

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Every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if, after he became a Christian, he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6), and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin, and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

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Doug Melven said in post #401:

[Re: Jas. 2:17]
Also by you putting this verse here like this, it contradicts what Paul says in Romans 4:5

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Note that the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved from hell (James 2:14b), how they are to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved from hell, how they are to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That is why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

Doug Melven said in post #401:

[Re: Mt. 7:15-20]
So if a person is a believer they will bear fruit.

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Note that Matthew 7:16-20 is not contradicting that Christians can wrongly employ their free will to bring forth some corrupt fruit, as in some unrepentant sinful actions, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27). Similarly, Matthew 7:16-20 is not contradicting that Christians can wrongly employ their free will to fail to bring forth good fruit, as in becoming utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Instead, regarding Christians, Matthew 7:16-20 is showing how to determine whether a Christian is "good" or has wrongly employed his free will to return to being corrupt (2 Peter 2:20-22).

Doug Melven said in post #401:

[Re: Mt. 7:24-27]
Those who have accepted Christ are building there house on the rock.

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Note that the house in Matthew 7:24-27 is only built on the rock if the man is obedient. For:

Matthew 7:24 . . . whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock . . .

And nothing requires that all Christians will be obedient. For Jesus will ultimately say to some of His servants, that is, to some Christians:

Matthew 25:26 . . . Thou wicked and slothful servant . . .

Matthew 25:30 . . . cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Doug Melven said in post #401:

Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up.

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John 15:1 ¶I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away . . .

This refers to Christians, who are branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

Christians can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus Christ, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

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Doug Melven said in post #402:

And how can people prepare themselves for the coming of Jesus?

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Christians need to be obedient to God now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13), which Tribulation will immediately precede Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31). For only obedient Christians will have their spiritual houses on the rock, as it were, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient Christians will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Doug Melven said in post #402:

If you are a believer, you are not an unbeliever.
You are one of the victorious ones, having overcome unbelief.

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Note that any Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5). He can ultimately lose his salvation, and be cast into the second death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14, and 1 John 4:4 do not contradict this. For these verses do not give any assurance that every Christian will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that Christians can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those Christian who do overcome to the end will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, and will not be cast into the lake of fire.

An example of Christians "overcoming" (Greek: nikao: G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), instead of worshipping him to save their lives during his future, worldwide persecution of Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the future Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation from hell (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured or killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and His Gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), in order to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

GodsGrace101 said in post #399:

My learning is that if a wife has an adulteress affair or lives a life of whoredom while married, the husband does have the right to divorce her.

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Note that no Bible verse allows that.

In Matthew 19:9, the Greek word "inappropriate contenteia" (G4202) can be used sometimes to refer only to pre-marital sex. For example, someone could say: "She committed inappropriate contenteia before she got married, but she has not committed adultery". In the same way, in Matthew 19:9, inappropriate contenteia, translated as "fornication", is used only in the sense of pre-marital sex, as distinguished from Matthew 19:9's separate reference to the Greek word "moichao" (G3429), translated as "adultery". See also Matthew 15:19, Matthew 5:32, Mark 7:21, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and Galatians 5:19, where inappropriate contenteia ("fornication") is used in a way which distinguishes it from moichao ("adultery").

If God allowed divorce for adultery, this would give married people the incentive to commit adultery if they wanted to marry someone else. For they could think: "I cannot stand this marriage, but I would love to marry that other person. All I have to do is commit adultery with that other person in a way that my spouse finds out and divorces me. Then I can marry that other person, and, Voilà, it is no longer adultery!" Such a mistaken, awful idea can only lead to more adultery and more broken marriages.

zoidar said:

I never said how young of a child. Do you think a baby lies, disobeys parents? I certainly don't believe in automatic salvation of a 14 year old or a 10 year old for that matter ...

I would like to see you prove I'm wrong from scripture, but even more so I like to see you prove that we are responsible for sin first at age of reason.

Of course it would be great if you are right, I just haven't seen it in scripture. It feels more like an idea arisen to support adult baptism.

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This is your second paragraph in your post no. 384:

My belief is as a young child can't sin he/she is saved because of that. As soon as a person sins that person is responsible to God. But the bible isn't clear on the matter. We have to believe in our loving God and savior Jesus Christ to deal with this the right and just way, as he certainly does.

I'm sure that anyone reading along would agree that a young child is not a baby. Yes, a young child DOES sin, they just are not aware of sin and so they are not held responsible for it. This was my statement from the beginning.
And, I NEVER said a person becomes automatically saved at some age --- I said there is an age of accountability.

If you don't understand this, I really cannot say anymore on the subject.

Not everything is found in scripture. Some concepts take theologians - for instance the Trinity. Also the double nature of Jesus...that He is 100% man and 100% God. This was confirmed in the Chalcedonean Creed. There are other creeds and cases such as this that require theologians to sort things out.

Bible2+ said:

Great point.

For even when what one verse says appears plain, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it does not say, things which would contradict what other verses say. To arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13). Our doctrine must be based on what the entire Bible says (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and not just on what some unqualified verses say.

An example of an unqualified verse would be John 3:36. We cannot say that it means that all we have to believe is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. For John 3:36 must be qualified by, for example, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (and vice versa). We have to believe both that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day. So when John 3:36 is qualified, something is added to it, not subtracted from it. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 adds further belief requirements to John 3:36 (and vice versa). 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not contradict the belief requirement of John 3:36 (or vice versa).

Another way that John 3:36 must be qualified is we cannot say that it means that all that Christians have to do is believe for at least one moment during their lifetime. For John 3:36 must be qualified by other verses which show that Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue to believe to the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23). And this is just one of the conditions which the Bible as a whole shows must be met in order for Christians to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

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Yes the Bible never contradicts itself. I believe many people have a this or that mentality when they see verses that appear to be opposing each other instead of contemplating how both can be true without being in opposition of each other. I think a lot of people have a tendency to just go with the basics of what their church teaches them instead of actually studying the Bible for themselves and learning the whole message. Unfortunately all the churches don’t teach the same thing so some of them have to be wrong. Another thing to consider is which teaching is going to be the safest belief? For example many Protestant churches teach faith alone and others teach faith with works. So think about the consequences of being wrong in each situation. If some believes in faith alone and they are wrong the consequences for not doing works will be disastrous. If someone believes in faith with works and they are wrong they will still be saved because they have faith. I believe the same situation applies to the doctrine of purgatory. Purgatory teaches that Jesus’ sacrifice does not pay for all our sins and that we must pay for them ourselves in the afterlife by suffering before we can enter heaven. This is a very dangerous teaching. So let’s say someone believes in purgatory and they die with the belief that Jesus’ sacrifice did not pay for all their sins. Guess what you could very well be right because you are not fully trusting in Jesus as your one and only Savior. It is very possible that by not fully trusting in Jesus as your Savior that you might not be saved. Now let’s say someone doesn’t believe in purgatory and they believe Jesus’ sacrifice paid for all their sins and they are wrong. They are not in danger of being condemned to the lake of fire for not believing in purgatory. Nowhere does the Bible say that you must believe in purgatory to receive salvation but on the other hand it says many times that we must trust in Jesus Christ as our Savior. So it’s better to be wrong fully trusting in Jesus as your one and only Savior than to believe that His sacrifice didn’t pay for all your sins just like it’s better to believe in faith with works than faith alone as long as you understand that it is not the works that save a person but the faith that produces works that saves a person.

GodsGrace101 said:

The most clear scripture is John 15:1-6
Many times Jesus spoke about the branches being CUT OFF.
Not fixed, not given another chance,

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I politely disagree sister. The term cut off simply mean to be removed from. It doesn’t imply that they cannot be grafted back in if they turn back to God.

BNR32FAN said:

I politely disagree sister. The term cut off simply mean to be removed from. It doesn’t imply that they cannot be grafted back in if they turn back to God.

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A person is never denied access to God.
I do believe a person can lose their salvation; but if they want to go back to God, He will always say yes.

P.S. I see. It's because I said they cannot have another chance.
I don't remember what I was thinking - I misspoke.
We ALWAYS can have another chance!
Thanks for bringing this up.

Sorry brother Doug that I didn’t get a chance to go over these last night I got off work late. The reason I posted these is because these are situations that will keep a person, believer or not, from entering heaven. The reason I said these verses are for believers is because a person must first believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior to even qualify for salvation. If a person doesn’t believe in Jesus then anything they do in their life no matter how good they are their sins will not be forgiven. I already explained why I posted the verses pertaining to the book of life yesterday. A person cannot be written in the book of life unless they are on the list to be saved. The fact that they can be blotted out means that a person who’s name is written in the book of life can be removed. So that is an undeniable example of loss of salvation.

Doug Melven said:

So we get to enter if our names are written in the Book of life as long as we don't practice shameful idolatry and dishonesty. This verse says nothing about needing to do works.

I bet you are going to say, "It's implied".

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No this verse has nothing to do with works this has to do with repentance. If a believer practices idolatry or dishonesty he will not be allowed to enter heaven. This means that simply believing in Jesus does not guarantee your salvation because this applies to everyone.


“Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”

Revelation 21:27

Doug Melven said:

You are going to have to do some proper exegesis on this to show that salvation can be lost.

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“For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power.”

1 Corinthians 4:20


In this message Paul is rebuking people in the church about boasting about who they are a follower of. Whether it be Paul himself or Apollos. The Kingdom of God is righteousness. It is attained by living in God’s power which means living or walking in the Spirit. When we are walking in the Spirit we are adhering to the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our everyday life. The Holy Spirit urges us to do good works and to refrain from sin.

Doug Melven said:

Jesus was talking to Pharisees of Israel.

The kingdom of God was to be taken away and given to the church.

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The Kingdom of God was taken away from the Israelites and given to the Gentiles. This shows a loss of righteousness and salvation.

Doug Melven said:

This is a great verse to show eternal security.

9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

Some say that they can believe and later turn away.

Jesus says no, there is no looking back.

If you make a decision to follow God, you are now His. You should know what you are doing first.

Once you belong to Him, you belong to Him, period.

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“But Jesus told him, “Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God.””

Luke 9:62


This has to do with repentance. Once you have repented and turned away from sin and towards God you must stay on course. Don’t turn back to sin. If someone does turn back to sin they are no longer righteous and not fit for the Kingdom of God. This is another indication that simply believing is not the only thing required for salvation.

Doug Melven said:

God will never be angry with a believer, He promised. Isaiah 54:9-10

So the ones who are doing such things aren't believers.

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Again these are stipulations to salvation for believers. Again this is about repentance and a believer who turns away from God and to this type of living God’s wrath will fall upon them.


“Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him. Don’t participate in the things these people do. For once you were full of darkness, but now you have light from the Lord. So live as people of light! For this light within you produces only what is good and right and true. Carefully determine what pleases the Lord. Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness; instead, expose them.”

Ephesians 5:3-11


Isaiah 54:9-10 is talking about Jewish believers in Christ. Yes as long as they remain in Christ and continue to walk in the Spirit God will not be angry when they stumble.

Doug Melven said:

Do you honestly believe that Jesus is saying if we visit those who are sick and in prison and give cups of cold water in His name will get us a place in Heaven?

There are 2 groups here.

Those who are Blessed of the Father.

Those who are cursed.

The Blessed show that they are blessed.

The cursed prove they are cursed.

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This has to do with producing fruit. Producing fruit is doing good works for God’s glory to be shown to others. It is being a light for others to see. Notice that both the sheep and the goats called Jesus Lord. They are both believers. These people are judged according to their deeds. The ones who didn’t produce fruit were condemned to the lake of fire. The ones who did produce fruit received eternal life. Hence the believers who were walking in the Spirit were saved the others were not.


““But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.””

Matthew 25:31-46

Continued in next post