LDS Questions for LDS in the Pews

Ironhold · Mar 11, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
Interesting theory, but it does not line up.

Look at your own sources.

Of the five you quoted below, three are from O. B. Huntington, the person credited with being the source of everything.

The other two are undated statements made by Brigham Young, meaning that the casual reader can't relate those statements to when Huntington first made his statement.

So yeah... It starts from Huntington and goes from there, with Young likely believing the reports.

Ironhold · Mar 11, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
More amusement:

What purpose does this or the previous post have in being in this thread?

Ironhold · Mar 11, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
from the link given to the online book,

Why not give chapter and link to this one?

He is the way · Apr 29, 2018

The doctrine of Christ:
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

withwonderingawe · Apr 30, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
Interesting theory, but it does not line up. The first quote below indicates that JS ask the Father to let him see this. But, it would be very interesting if you can produce some of the newspaper articles that JS most likely had access to. I would love to read them just for the humor of it. When you consider some of the Science Religion ideas back then, anything like that is possible. My next post is just for amusement.

“ ‘Inhabitants of the Moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker Style & are quite general in Style, or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; comeing [sic] generally, near a thousand years.' This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could ‘See' whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., in Journal of O.B. Huntington, Book 14, p. 166

“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271

“In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and – to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes.”

- O.B. Huntington, The Young Women's Journal, v. 3, pp. 263-264 (1892)

“If the sun was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized. Every planet in the first rude, organic state receives not the glory of God upon it, but is opaque; but when celstialized, every planet that God brings into existence is a body of light, but not till then.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271

“As far back as 1837, I know he [Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do – that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.”

- O.B. Huntington, “The Inhabitants of the Moon,” The Young Woman's Journal, 1892, v. 3, pp. 263-164

This really is a good example of how false stories get started.

Huntington apparently went to a presentation given by Philo Dibble, who was a collector of anything Joseph Smith. He’s the one that Emma Smith’s stepson Charles Bidamon pawned off the Jupiter Talisman on to. Binamon never met Joseph Smith, not even being born, yet he claimed it was in Joseph’s pocket when he died. However there is a coroner’s list of items given to Emma and the talisman is not on it. No one who knew Joseph ever mentioned the talisman, Joseph never mentioned, not one single person ever mentioned it. So we can assume Binamon lied and made some money doing it.

This story about moon men is kind of similar, Huntington claims to have heard it from Dibble but we don’t know who Dibble heard it from. Did he hear it personally himself or like the talisman was it a story he heard from someone else. There is no other journal which records this anywhere. It’s not in the Joseph Smith papers which are extensive, it’s not in any news paper accounts there simply isn’t any other record of it.

In Huntington’s 1892 Young Women’s article he sites the 1835 hoax which Iron mentioned. Paraphrasing him he says; from time immemorial until recently astronomers have told us the moon is uninhabited but now with the use of telescopes scientist have their doubts. Obviously Huntington believed there were moon men but that does not mean every Mormon did.

In his article he says he received a blessing from Joseph Smith Sr. and that it said;

“…I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planets…

Well they have the actual blessing, it was given to him by his own father in 1836 a year after Richard Locke, a reporter for the New York Sun first published his hoax.

“… before thou art twenty one thou wilt be called to preach the fullness of the gospel, thou shalt have power with God even to translate thyself to Heaven, & preach to the inhabitants of the moon or planets, if it shall be expedient ….”

So his own father believed there were moon men, after all it was in the paper and with God all things are possible if expedient.

The belief that the moon was inhabited was not uncommon. The astronomer William Herschel who died in 1822 thought there may be “a region below the Sun’s fiery surface where men might live, and he regarded the existence of life on the Moon as an “absolute certainty” (1976 Patrick Moore, Director of the British Astronomical Association)

So maybe we can understand and forgive people for assuming the moon was inhabited and maybe the sun too.

I took some of my info from an article by Van Hale called Mormons and Moonmen

Daniel Marsh · May 1, 2018

Ironhold said:
Again, a shot across the bow at the various idols of the day.

All false gods are idols in people's hearts.

Isaiah 44:6 Good News Translation (GNT)
6 The Lord, who rules and protects Israel,
the Lord Almighty, has this to say:
“I am the first, the last, the only God;
there is no other god but me.

BigDaddy4 · May 2, 2018

Ironhold said:
Considering that it took decades for one account to come forward...

...is irrelevant to the question asked.

Ironhold · May 2, 2018

BigDaddy4 said:
...is irrelevant to the question asked.

No, it's spot on.

If this was some big thing JS pushed, logically it'd be all over the place.

Instead, pretty much every single claim about this goes back to the one single account.

BigDaddy4 · May 2, 2018

Ironhold said:
No, it's spot on.

If this was some big thing JS pushed, logically it'd be all over the place.

Instead, pretty much every single claim about this goes back to the one single account.

Repeating the question...

BigDaddy4 said:
Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught about inhabitants of the moon and/or sun. Do you deny this? Do you have any evidence that no one in the lds church at that time believed them?

Your response does not answer either of the questions posed.

Catholic4Jesus · May 2, 2018

Ironhold said:
Considering that it took decades for one account to come forward...

Kinda the same as the first vision which JS claimed happened in 1820 yet no one in the early church had a clue about it, JS himself didn't even make a record of it until 1832 - two years after the church was formed. (what I find really odd is that the 1st account of the first vision account that is in JS own handwriting isn't even the one the church uses as what actually happened, they use his third account of this event from 1838). The first printed mention of it was in 1940 and that account is very different from the one the church uses today. If it is so important then why no mention of it when the church started?

Ironhold · May 2, 2018

Catholic4Jesus said:
Kinda the same as the first vision which JS claimed happened in 1820 yet no one in the early church had a clue about it, JS himself didn't even make a record of it until 1832 - two years after the church was formed. (what I find really odd is that the 1st account of the first vision account that is in JS own handwriting isn't even the one the church uses as what actually happened, they use his third account of this event from 1838). The first printed mention of it was in 1940 and that account is very different from the one the church uses today. If it is so important then why no mention of it when the church started?

...And you missed it.

Joseph is in record as having told and retold the story of the First Vision well before it was formally written down and entered into canon.

No record of the whole moon men bit is known to exist before the one statement made decades later.

Catholic4Jesus · May 2, 2018

Ironhold said:
...And you missed it.

Joseph is in record as having told and retold the story of the First Vision well before it was formally written down and entered into canon.

No record of the whole moon men bit is known to exist before the one statement made decades later.

I'd love to see where? The church's offical first missionary pamphlet doesn't even mention it and that was written in 1837

Ironhold · May 2, 2018

Catholic4Jesus said:
I'd love to see where? The church's offical first missionary pamphlet doesn't even mention it and that was written in 1837

LDS FAQ: Joseph Smith's First Vision Accounts (Origins of Mormonism)

Section 20 of the Doctrine & Covenants was written in 1830, and Joseph himself wrote a full-on account in 1832.

So there ya go.

He is the way · May 2, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
All false gods are idols in people's hearts.

Isaiah 44:6 Good News Translation (GNT)
6 The Lord, who rules and protects Israel,
the Lord Almighty, has this to say:
“I am the first, the last, the only God;
there is no other god but me.

This refers to Jesus Christ, the God of Israel:
(Old Testament | Isaiah 43:11)

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:21)

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me

He made a covenant with Israel to be their God:

(Old Testament | Exodus 6:6 - 8)

6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

Catholic4Jesus · May 3, 2018

Ironhold said:
LDS FAQ: Joseph Smith's First Vision Accounts (Origins of Mormonism)

Section 20 of the Doctrine & Covenants was written in 1830, and Joseph himself wrote a full-on account in 1832.

So there ya go.

thanks, the 1830 reference in the Book of Commandments (D&C) is extremely vague though, and JS didn't publish his 1832 account - which is a different account from the one the church uses so it still seems like the early church didn't know about the vision (any of the versions) until the 1840s. The below quote from John Taylor indicates that even by 1879 the LDS church was still not teaching the current version of the vision and instead talks only about an angel not 'two personages'.

“How was it, and which was right? None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right. What, none of them? No. We will not stop to argue that question; the angel merely told him to join none of them that none of them were right.” (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol.20, 1879, pp.158-171)

Daniel Marsh · May 4, 2018

A meaning of Formed in Isiah 43:10

Isaiah 45:18
The Lord created the heavens— he is the one who is God! He formed and made the earth— he made it firm and lasting. He did not make it a desolate waste, but a place for people to live. It is he who says, “I am the Lord, and there is no other god.

Isaiah 62:5
Like a young man taking a virgin as his bride, He who formed you will marry you. As a groom is delighted with his bride, So your God will delight in you.

Psalm 139:15 When my bones were being formed, carefully put together in my mother's womb, when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there—

Basically the word has a meaning of one who is born.

Isaiah 40:28 Don't you know? Haven't you heard? The Lord is the everlasting God; he created all the world. He never grows tired or weary. No one understands his thoughts.

Basically everlasting means He has no beginning or end.

Isaiah 41:14 The Lord says, “Small and weak as you are, Israel, don't be afraid; I will help you. I, the holy God of Israel, am the one who saves you.

Just a verse of encouragement.

Isaiah 43:13 I am God and always will be. No one can escape from my power; no one can change what I do.”

Isaiah 44:5 “One by one, people will say, ‘I am the Lord's.’ They will come to join the people of Israel. They each will mark the name of the Lord on their arms and call themselves one of God's people.”

Isaiah 45:6 I do this so that everyone from one end of the world to the other may know that I am the Lord and that there is no other god.

Isaiah 45:11 The Lord, the holy God of Israel, the one who shapes the future, says: “You have no right to question me about my children or to tell me what I ought to do!

Isaiah 45:18 The Lord created the heavens— he is the one who is God! He formed and made the earth— he made it firm and lasting. He did not make it a desolate waste, but a place for people to live. It is he who says, “I am the Lord, and there is no other god.

Isaiah 45:21 Come and present your case in court; let the defendants consult one another. Who predicted long ago what would happen? Was it not I, the Lord, the God who saves his people? There is no other god.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember what happened long ago; acknowledge that I alone am God and that there is no one else like me.

Isaiah 47:8 “Listen to this, you lover of pleasure, you that think you are safe and secure. You claim you are as great as God— that there is no one else like you. You thought that you would never be a widow or suffer the loss of your children.

God does not like it when others claim they will become a God.

Isaiah 47:10 “You felt sure of yourself in your evil; you thought that no one could see you. Your wisdom and knowledge led you astray, and you said to yourself, ‘I am God— there is no one else like me.’

Isaiah 48:17 [ The Lord's Plan for His People ] The holy God of Israel, the Lord who saves you, says: “I am the Lord your God, the one who wants to teach you for your own good and direct you in the way you should go.

Isaiah 49:26 I will make your oppressors kill each other; they will be drunk with murder and rage. Then all people will know that I am the Lord, the one who saves you and sets you free. They will know that I am Israel's powerful God.”

Isaiah 55:5 Now you will summon foreign nations; at one time they did not know you, but now they will come running to join you! I, the Lord your God, the holy God of Israel, will make all this happen; I will give you honor and glory.”

Isaiah 64:4 No one has ever seen or heard of a God like you, who does such deeds for those who put their hope in him.

verses I did not comment on, are simply there for encouragement.

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