If forgiveness and repentance are necessary for salvation how are we saved by our faith alone?

GodsGrace101 said:

I'm not on Google,,,I'm on a forum.

You posted that it's different.
HOW are are justification and salvation different?????
Do you not know?
Do you make statements you do not understand?

I said...they are NOT different.

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Justification and salvation are different but yet deal with the same aspect

HypnoToad said:

For one, justification and salvation are two different things.

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Justification is just one aspect of multi-faceted salvation. And it is justification by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. So a person who is justified in indeed saved.

Alpha.Omega said:

you responded to "Calvinism can't grasp this Bible Truth!"

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That was the response to the response.

Micah888 said:

Justification is just one aspect of multi-faceted salvation. And it is justification by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. So a person who is justified in indeed saved.

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But not without repentance

Albion said:

That was the response to the response.

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Indeed. Where you said that Calvinists get it right

Alpha.Omega said:

Indeed. Where you said that Calvinists get it right

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No. If you want to reconstruct this discussion, go back and read post #9.

Micah888 said:

Justification is just one aspect of multi-faceted salvation. And it is justification by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. So a person who is justified in indeed saved.

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If justification is an aspect of salvation, then they are, just as I said, different things. I never said they were unrelated.

Albion said:

No. If you want to reconstruct this discussion, go back and read post #9.

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at #13 you said to me

"Actually, it may be argued that only Calvinists fully understand it. That probably is an exaggeration, but it certainly is not the case that they cannot understand the point."

Salvation is God saving the sinner who truly repents of their sins, and by faith accepting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, for their sins.

Justification is God declaring the sinner "forgiven" of all their sins, and the imputation of the Righteousness of Jesus Christ to them, thereby "accounting" them as "righteous" before Him, and removing the penalty of their sins from them.

Alpha.Omega said:

Salvation is God saving the sinner who truly repents of their sins, and by faith accepting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, for their sins.

Justification is God declaring the sinner "forgiven" of all their sins, and the imputation of the Righteousness of Jesus Christ to them, thereby "accounting" them as "righteous" before Him, and removing the penalty of their sins from them.

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...which means saving him.

Neostarwcc said:

That's a good point. Faith is listed time and time again as something that's required for salvation. But didn't Jesus say if we don't forgive others we won't be forgiven? So There's an extra requirement to salvation. And doesn't the bible say over and over again to repent? So my question is more along the lines of does God work forgiveness and repentance into our hearts during sanctification or is that something we do on our own?

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I don't like the expression that there's an extra requirement for salvation. Salvation requires that we have faith in Jesus--the rest comes of its own.

And yes, God does work forgiveness into our hearts. Without God we can do nothing to please Him because it's our love He wants and our love for Him makes us do what He would want us to do.

This would be sanctification.

Neostarwcc said:

Okay so its pretty clear from the bible that forgiveness and repentance are necessary for salvation. But its also clear from Romans and many other passages that we are saved by our faith alone. Not as a result of works. For all who call upon Jesus with a truly repentant heart will be saved. But my question is a difficult one. If we are saved by our faith and ONLY our faith how can forgiveness and repentance be necessary for salvation? Is it because a true faith would have forgiveness and repentance? Or is it because God works forgivess and repentance during our sanctification process? Or is it something else?

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first of all lets think of this as a Covenant. Covenants has always had conditions throughout the bible. another term for testament is covenant. this does not mean that God's love is conditional but rather it is humans who walk away from something.
secondly, Abraham was a man of faith, but having faith because he heard and believed God's promises, he acted on his faith and started to walk to the promised land. the walking is a work and this walking did produce fruit.
third id advise reading the parable of the unforgiving servant located in matthew 18:21-35
fourth lets understand the relationship between faith and works.

Faith and Works

(Genesis 15:1-7; Romans 4:1-12; Galatians 3:1-9; Hebrews 11:8-19)



14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

where does it say we are saved by faith only? even Abraham known for his faith still had works. Faith naturally produces works and is a sign. romans 1:17-18 is usually used for sola fide (faith alone) but it does not say faith ALONE. it says faith. looking at james above we see that works or action if that is a preferred term follows. we have faith but let's act on that faith. works is an act of faith which produces fruit


matthew 7
A Tree and its Fruit

(Matthew 12:33-37; Luke 6:43-45)



15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

we could also touch base on the fruits of the flesh and of the spirit in Galatians 5

When pursuing God we would take on his nature. unforgivness is not love nor is it a fruit of the spirit.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19We love him, because he first loved us. 20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. 1 john 4

To make all of this simplified, desire God and pursue Him, like the man who desired a pearl he wanted and sold everything in order to acquire it did. ref: matthew 14:35-36

hope this is helpful

Neostarwcc said:

Okay so its pretty clear from the bible that forgiveness and repentance are necessary for salvation. But its also clear from Romans and many other passages that we are saved by our faith alone. Not as a result of works. For all who call upon Jesus with a truly repentant heart will be saved. But my question is a difficult one. If we are saved by our faith and ONLY our faith how can forgiveness and repentance be necessary for salvation? Is it because a true faith would have forgiveness and repentance? Or is it because God works forgivess and repentance during our sanctification process? Or is it something else?

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Because 'repentance' doesn't mean you're not sinning, it just means you're not committing sins that you're aware of so to even think that you're doing anything "right" requires faith. Nobody is "doing it right" lol

Albion said:

Just a minute, Alpha. The comment I responded to said this:

How are justification and salvation different??
When one is justified, he is also saved...

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I made this statement.
What's incorrect about it???

Neostarwcc said:

That's a good point. Faith is listed time and time again as something that's required for salvation. But didn't Jesus say if we don't forgive others we won't be forgiven? So There's an extra requirement to salvation. And doesn't the bible say over and over again to repent? So my question is more along the lines of does God work forgiveness and repentance into our hearts during sanctification or is that something we do on our own?

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We also need FAITH to be saved, as Paul tells the jailer, "BELIEVE (FAITH) in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household" (Acts 16:31). Jesus says, "REPENT and BELIEVE" (Mark 1:15)

HypnoToad said:

If justification is an aspect of salvation, then they are, just as I said, different things. I never said they were unrelated.

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If a person is saved, he is justified.
If a person is justified, he is saved.

If you're not going to explain HOW they are different, don't keep repeating it.

GodsGrace101 said:

I don't like the expression that there's an extra requirement for salvation. Salvation required that we have faith in Jesus--the rest comes of its own.

And yes, God does work forgiveness into our hearts. Without God we can do nothing to please Him because it's our love He wants and our love for Him makes us do what He would want us to do.

This would be sanctification.

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But, not faith without repentance. It is "repentance" that leads to "forgiveness of sins", as the correct reading of the Greek text says in Luke 24:47, as the ESV has it.

TheSeeker2014 said:

first of all lets think of this as a Covenant. Covenants has always had conditions throughout the bible. another term for testament is covenant. this does not mean that God's love is conditional but rather it is humans who walk away from something.
secondly, Abraham was a man of faith, but having faith because he heard and believed God's promises, he acted on his faith and started to walk to the promised land. the walking is a work and this walking did produce fruit.
third id advise reading the parable of the unforgiving servant located in matthew 18:21-35
fourth lets understand the relationship between faith and works.

Faith and Works

(Genesis 15:1-7; Romans 4:1-12; Galatians 3:1-9; Hebrews 11:8-19)



14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

where does it say we are saved by faith only? even Abraham known for his faith still had works. Faith naturally produces works and is a sign. romans 1:17-18 is usually used for sola fide (faith alone) but it does not say faith ALONE. it says faith. looking at james above we see that works or action if that is a preferred term follows. we have faith but let's act on that faith. works is an act of faith which produces fruit


matthew 7
A Tree and its Fruit

(Matthew 12:33-37; Luke 6:43-45)



15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

we could also touch base on the fruits of the flesh and of the spirit in Galatians 5

When pursuing God we would take on his nature. unforgivness is not love nor is it a fruit of the spirit.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19We love him, because he first loved us. 20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. 1 john 4

To make all of this simplified, desire God and pursue Him, like the man who desired a pearl he wanted and sold everything in order to acquire it did. ref: matthew 14:35-36

hope this is helpful

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Very good post.
I'd only like to say that, yes, some covenants were conditional.
The Mosaic Covenant was conditional. You obey me, and I will be your God.

The Edenic Covenant was conditional. Don't eat the fruit, and you will not die.

GodsGrace101 said:

If a person is saved, he is justified.
If a person is justified, he is saved.

If you're not going to explain HOW they are different, don't keep repeating it.

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repentance, faith, forgiveness, justification, salvation, are ALL different aspects for a sinners being saved. They do not mean the same thing, though they relate to the same thing, the salvation of the sinner.

Albion said:

...which means saving him.

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see #39