justbyfaith
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Eternal Security - Is the Gospel
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justbyfaith
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There is only ONE New and Everlasting Covenant: the one Jesus ratified by dying on a Cross. It applies to Jews and Gentiles; not just Jews.
As you said, some of the promises given to Israel can be claimed by the church.
After all, we were graffed into the olive tree.
As you said, some of the promises given to Israel can be claimed by the church.
After all, we were graffed into the olive tree.
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Water baptism by itself does not save a person.
Of course, our belief in Jesus does.
The idea Augustine came up with is that we are born with original sin. Baptism takes away original sin. If a baby dies unbaptized, he still has original sin and since sin cannot enter into heaven, Rev. 21:27, he goes to the other place.
If God is a just God, this is preposterous. Jesus said that the children were to go to Him. He said that even WE are to be as the children were.
There is an age of reason at which time we become responsible for our sins and for what we know. It changes for each person, but is usually considered to be about the age of 13 or 14. Some never reach the age of reason (retardation, down, autism, etc) so we just trust them to God's mercy and love for His most important creation made in His image...man.
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The bible says nothing of age of reason, I think you have put in too much theories into this. We don't know exactly why a baby is saved. To give numbers like 13-14 or any other number for that matter I believe is wrong.
My belief is as a young child can't sin he/she is saved because of that. As soon as a person sins that person is responsible to God. But the bible isn't clear on the matter. We have to believe in our loving God and savior Jesus Christ to deal with this the right and just way, as he certainly does.
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Note that Jesus Christ made no exception for adultery.
Instead, under Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament, a husband is not to divorce his wife (1 Corinthians 7:11b), and a wife is not to divorce her husband (1 Corinthians 7:10). And if a wife does divorce her husband, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband (1 Corinthians 7:11). Regarding becoming reconciled, a Christian must always completely forgive everyone who has wronged him or her in any way (Mark 11:25), no matter how great the wrong, and no matter how many times a wrong has been committed (Matthew 18:21-35). For if a Christian refuses to forgive anyone for anything, God will refuse to forgive that Christian for his or her own sins (Mark 11:26).
If a husband divorces a valid wife and marries another woman, he is committing adultery (Mark 10:11). And if a wife divorces a valid husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery (Mark 10:12). The exception for fornication (as distinguished from adultery) in Matthew 19:9 permits a husband to divorce a valid wife for having had pre-marital sex, and to marry another woman without his committing adultery. But this applies only to cases where a husband does not discover until after he is married that his newlywed wife is not a virgin (cf. Deuteronomy 22:14, Matthew 1:19). There is no such pre-marital-sex exception granted to a wife. Also, there is no pre-marital-sex exception granted to a man who marries a divorced woman. If a man marries a woman divorced from a valid husband for any reason, he is committing adultery (Luke 16:18b).
1 Corinthians 7:15 means that a Christian spouse is not under the bondage of having to keep together a valid marriage to a non-Christian when the non-Christian is determined to get a divorce. But 1 Corinthians 7:15 does not mean that a Christian wife, after being divorced by a non-Christian, yet valid, husband, can then marry someone else. For if a man marries a woman divorced from a valid husband, he is committing adultery (Luke 16:18b). But the Bible does not forbid a man divorced from a valid wife to marry a second, single woman who is not divorced from a valid husband, so long as it was his first wife (whether a non-Christian or Christian) who divorced him. But then in God's eyes, he will be married to two women at the same time (so long as both remain alive), which, while the Bible does not require is a sin in itself, because it is not the best situation, it disqualifies him from taking any leadership positions in the Church (1 Timothy 3:2,12).
The now-abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6) permitted a divorced woman to marry someone else (Deuteronomy 24:2). But if her second marriage ended, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade her to remarry her first husband (Deuteronomy 24:4). The New Covenant rules turn this on its head. For now a woman divorced from a valid husband cannot marry anyone else (Mark 10:12, Luke 16:18b), but she can remarry her valid husband (1 Corinthians 7:11). It was because the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted a divorced woman to marry someone else, that Jesus Christ, while the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was still in effect, could acknowledge the woman of Samaria's five marriages (John 4:18, assuming that all five did not end in the death of her husband: cf. Luke 20:29-31). The New Covenant rules forbidding a woman divorced from a valid husband to marry anyone else did not come into legal effect until Jesus' death on the Cross brought the New Covenant into legal effect (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6).
God never said that marriage would be easy. And He has set such strict, New Covenant rules regarding divorce and second marriages (Matthew 19:9, Mark 10:12) that His apostles said that it is better not to get married at all (Matthew 19:10). He answered by saying that whoever can accept not getting married, and remaining celibate, should accept it (Matthew 19:11-12). The apostle Paul said the same thing, that unmarried celibacy is the best thing for a Christian if he or she can handle it (1 Corinthians 7:1,7-8,32-35). But if someone who has not been married cannot contain himself or herself sexually, then he or she should get married in order to avoid fornication (1 Corinthians 7:2,9).
The strict, New Covenant rules regarding divorce and second marriages cut both ways, in that if Christians find themselves in a miserable marriage which is an adulterous affair in God's eyes (Mark 10:11-12), they can escape their misery and their unrepentant sin at the same time by divorcing their invalid spouse. But if they find themselves in a very pleasant marriage which is an adulterous affair in God's eyes, then they have to be willing to give it up in order to escape their unrepentant sin, and thereby avoid ultimately losing their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Galatians 5:19-21, Luke 12:45-46).
The only unforgivable sin is blaspheming God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:28-29), such as ascribing a work of the Holy Spirit to Satan (Mark 3:22-30). Any other sin can be forgiven if it is repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). Just as if Christians find themselves living in the sin of an adulterous affair, they cannot continue in that sin, so if they find themselves living in the sin of second-marriage adultery (Mark 10:12, Matthew 19:9), they cannot continue in that sin (or any other sin) and expect God's grace to forgive them (Hebrews 10:26-29, Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Instead, they must break off with the second, invalid spouse, even if they have had children with the second spouse, just as married people must break off an adulterous affair even if they have had children as a result of that affair.
After breaking off an adulterous second marriage, a wife must remain unmarried or be reconciled to her first, valid husband (1 Corinthians 7:11), if she has one. And if she does have one, she cannot marry someone else, even if, for example, that would help her and her children to escape poverty. For just as escaping poverty would not justify the wife continuing in the sin of an adulterous affair with a man who financially supports her and her children (or would not justify the sin of her becoming and remaining a well-paid prostitute), so escaping poverty would not justify the sin of her entering into another case of second-marriage adultery (Mark 10:12) with a man who financially supports her and her children.
Romans 3:31 means that Christians establish the Old Covenant Mosaic law not in its letter, but in its spirit (Romans 7:6), by loving others (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Matthew 7:12). Part of loving others is warning them if they are living in sin (Revelation 3:19; 2 Thessalonians 3:15, Hebrews 3:13, James 5:19-20). The worst thing that a Christian can do is to coddle people who are living in sin, instead of sharing with them the hard (yet saving) truths of God's Word the Holy Bible (2 Timothy 4:2-4, cf. Jeremiah 23:14,22,29). Telling the truth to people can sometimes hurt them, but that is better than deceiving them with something which makes them feel good (Proverbs 27:6, Proverbs 28:23). The reason that second-marriage adultery (or any other sin) is so common in the Church today is because so much of the Church has stopped teaching and believing the hard truths of God's Word the Holy Bible (2 Timothy 4:2-4, cf. Jeremiah 23:14,22,29).
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Note that Romans 5:19a is the doctrine of original sin, which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned; just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10).
Because of original sin, we are all guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies, we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin is not our only guiltiness before God. For we have all as individuals committed our own sins by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b), or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24), without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to Christians (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).
If original sin is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus Christ could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?
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John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him . . .
23 If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings . . .
Christians obey God out of both their love for Him (John 14:21-24; 1 John 5:3), and their fear of Him (Romans 11:20-22; 1 Peter 1:17, Philippians 2:12), their fear of ultimately losing their salvation from hell if they wrongly employ their free will to do something like committing unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or if they become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).
In John 14:21,23, when Jesus Christ talks about Christians needing to obey Him if they want God to love them (see also what John 15:10 says), He is referring to how Christians must keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21), and continue in His goodness (Romans 11:22), by continuing in faithful obedience to him, if they want to be saved from hell in the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9).
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Hebrews 13:5b applies to Christians only if they remain faithful to Jesus Christ. For "if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12b).
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2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
This means that if Christians come to believe not (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Matthew 13:21), if they come to commit apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), this does not affect God's faithfulness to Himself. For He cannot deny Himself. But He will deny Christians who commit apostasy (2 Timothy 2:12), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, Mark 8:35-38).
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
This, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:37a applies only to initial salvation. For John 6:37b (like John 6:35b) apples only to those Christians who continue to believe (John 15:6, Hebrews 3:6,12,14), do good works (John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), and repent from any sins that they commit (Luke 13:3), to the end (Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:26-29). For Jesus Christ will ultimately cast out some Christians because of unrepentant sin (1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (John 15:2a,6), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), at the judgment of the Church by Jesus at His future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).
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Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, especially its physical circumcision (Galatians 6:12-13), are works of the flesh, as opposed to spiritual works of faith (Philippians 3:2-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8). For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12). Also, compare what Romans 7:5-6 says.
Galatians 3:2-3 means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law cannot make Christians perfect. Galatians 3:2-3 is not contradicting that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b).
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Note that this does not require once-saved-always-saved. For it only shows what God's help makes possible for Christians, not what is assured. For Christians can wrongly employ their free will to fall into apostasy, unrepentant sin, or laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26-30).
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This means that nothing outside of Christians' own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 is not contradicting that Christians themselves can wrongly employ their free will, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).
Regarding the part of Romans 8:38-39 which says: "neither death, nor life", it means that neither Christians' continued living in itself, nor their dying in itself, can separate them from God's love, in the sense of them losing their salvation just for continuing to live, or just for dying. For unless Christians wrongly employ their free will to commit suicide, whether they continue to live or die is outside of their control.
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him . . .
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
This, like 1 John 5:18 and 3 John 1:11b, means that the initial salvation of Christians will be accompanied by them repenting from their sins, and not continuing in them, at least for a while. What these verses do not mean is that Christians lose their free will, and become robots, unable to ever choose, sometime subsequent to their initial salvation and repentance, to commit a sin without ever repenting from it. For other verses show that it is possible for Christians to do this, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).
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Ok your example of Peter is a bad explanation. Did Peter turn to God and away from sin? Yes absolutely which is repentance. Repentance is not confession they are two different things. Just because the Bible didn’t record Peter confessing doesn’t mean he didn’t confess. Actually it is clear what Jesus meant by denying someone.
““Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.”
Matthew 10:32-33
The word deny means to refuse or not accept. Here’s strong’s definition of the Greek word arnéomai.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
deny
G720
Lemma:
ἀρνέομαι
Transliteration:
arnéomai
Pronounce:
ar-neh'-om-ahee
Part of Speech:
Verb
Language:
greek
Description:
1) to deny
2) to deny someone a) to deny one's self
1) to disregard his own interests or to prove false to himself
2) act entirely unlike himself
3) to deny, abnegate, abjure
4) not to accept, to reject, to refuse something offered
Grammar:
perhaps from Α (as a negative particle) and the middle voice of ῥέω; to contradict, i.e. disavow, reject, abnegate:--deny, refuse.
Occurrences in Bible:
33
Occurrences in Verses:
28
KJV usage:
deny (29x), refuse (2x).
Surely this wasn’t necessary to understand what Jesus was saying.
You have to stop looking for single verses to support your beliefs and look at the entire teachings of the Bible as a whole. I think you are acting in denial of the truth my friend. All the evidence is clear. OSAS does not coincide with all the scriptures it only seems to fit some of them. I’ve given example after example of explaining every single verse you’ve quoted to support OSAS and my examples are very clear and biblical. None of my examples are in any way ambiguous or a stretch of imagination. They are directly connected. Please don’t turn your eyes away just because it doesn’t support your beliefs. Let the scriptures do the teaching. I’ve even shown that the early church fathers taught that eternal security is not biblical. Remember that Paul said we must test our beliefs and hold to that which is good.
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A child certainly does sin,,,
Lying
Calling other children bad names
Hitting them
Disobeying parents
Coveting
Etc.
It's just that they don't understand that it's "sinning" so God does not hold them accountable until the age of reason. Which I said is different for everyone.
I believe the word of God has to back up everything we say, however don't you agree that we get help from theologians?
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Doug Melven
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Even if you are correct in saying this is a denial of Peter's love, it is still not Jesus denying Peter.
So do I.
2 Cor 5:16-21 We are not to know people after the flesh, because we are new creations
in Christ Jesus. Old things have passed away, all things are become new.
Our old man (the sinner) is dead, all things are new.
in :21 it says that Jesus was made to be sin, that we might be made righteous in
Christ. Jesus never sinned even once, He did nothing to become sin, we did nothing to
be made righteous. So why would our committing a sin make us a sinner?
Fine by me if you want to use this verse for the church. Let's look at it again.
32:36 And now therefore thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning this city, whereof ye say, It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence;
32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
God says of this covenant, that He will not turn way from them.
Then He says, that He will put His fear in us, and we will not depart from Him.
Completely against those who say, "We can depart from Him".
No, this says we will not depart from Him.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
If that is the way it is used, it becomes a worthless promise. Why would God promise not to forsake if they were doing everything right? No, this is for imperfect people who need to know God is there regardless.
But then you would say, "But people would take advantage and go live in sin".
Why would someone want to do that, when God is our fulfilment?
People who would say this, they clearly don't understand how much God loves them.
And do you really think someone is going to take advantage of God?
So, let's just ignore Scripture to support our doctrine.
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I explained to you that just because the Bible doesn’t say Peter confessed doesn’t mean he didn’t confess. The Bible never says that anyone ever took a crap either but you can bet it happened. The Bible does however teach that Peter repented. Do you know the difference between confession and repentance?
Confession is to proclaim our sins to God and ask for forgiveness.
Repentance is to turn from sin and to God. It’s translated from the Greek word metanoia which means a change of mind or way of life and to turn away from something.
If Peter hadn’t repented he couldn’t have received the Holy Spirit and would’ve gone to the lake of fire when he died. Jesus would’ve definitely denied Peter if he had not repented.
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Doug Melven
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Remember what you said about Peter repenting?
Does this verse say
But everyone who denies me here on earth, unless they repent, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.”
There are no conditions here. No, if you deny Jesus, He will deny you.
If these words are to be taken literally, everybody will be denied by Jesus before the Father.
Because everybody at some point, even as a believer, will deny Jesus.
Let's look at another verse that shows eternal security.
Romans 10::9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
These verses say we shall be saved, not maybe, or that salvation is in doubt, no it says "shall be saved".
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““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’”
Matthew 7:21-23
““So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say? I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it. It is like a person building a house who digs deep and lays the foundation on solid rock. When the floodwaters rise and break against that house, it stands firm because it is well built. But anyone who hears and doesn’t obey is like a person who builds a house right on the ground, without a foundation. When the floods sweep down against that house, it will collapse into a heap of ruins.””
Luke 6:46-49
Now do you see that by looking at single verses that your beliefs are wrong? If you put together all of the teachings of the Bible you will see that there is more than just believing in Jesus to be saved. Obedience and devotion is also required hence repentance and fruit. Look at these examples of people who will not be saved. These verses pertaining to believers only.
A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. A tree is identified by its fruit. Figs are never gathered from thornbushes, and grapes are not picked from bramble bushes. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. What you say flows from what is in your heart. “So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say? I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it. It is like a person building a house who digs deep and lays the foundation on solid rock. When the floodwaters rise and break against that house, it stands firm because it is well built. But anyone who hears and doesn’t obey is like a person who builds a house right on the ground, without a foundation. When the floods sweep down against that house, it will collapse into a heap of ruins.
Luke 6:43-49
What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?
James 2:14
“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”
James 2:19-20
So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
James 2:17
Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
James 2:21-24
Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road. Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.
James 2:25-26
Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me. “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come. “A tree is identified by its fruit. If a tree is good, its fruit will be good. If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad. You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.
Matthew 12:30-37
Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.
Matthew 7:15-20
Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.
Matthew 7:24-27
I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.
John 15:1-6
When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 3:10
Let them be blotted out of the book of life, And not be written with the righteous.
Psalms 69:28
I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Revelation 21:27
For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power.
1 Corinthians 4:20
I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will produce the proper fruit.
Matthew 21:43
But Jesus told him, “Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God.
Luke 9:62
Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.
Ephesians 5:3-6
But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.
Matthew 25:31-46
Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!
Matthew 13:37-43
A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:45-51
All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:7-8
Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 18:3-10
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You said that God wold never condemn one of his children. I pointed out that some of his children are, according to his own words, disobedient 'children of darkness'. Even as adults we are regarded as children by God, who doesn't miss much....
'What does the rich man and Lazarus have to do with losing salvation?
The rich man lost the prospect of salvation for which he had been created by setting his heart 'where his treasure lay', on material riches.
And are you unfamiliar with the passage in the Old Testament in which it is stated that when a good man turns bad, he shall die for his sins, and rightly so ; whereas, when a bad man is converted to leading a virtuous life, he shall be saved. I believe I cited this passage earlier (not verbatim, but close enough).
'What does growing into maturity have to do with losing salvation?'
Why do you find it unpalatable that we should be required by God to grow in the Spirit in the normal healthy way that we grow in the flesh ?
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Since you may not believe that God is a loving God, you probably find it easy to believe that God will not hold a person guilty of his sins UNLESS that person is aware of having sinned.
Yes. We who know that God is loving, do believe we must understand that we are sinning in order to be guilty of that sin.
You may believe what you wish.
1 John 4:8
As far as accountability of a child: You might want to study some Fundamental Theology; you will learn about the age of accountability.
As far as Palagianism is concerned... I don't know anyone on these threads who call themself a Christian who would agree with most of his teachings. This is why it was known as a heresy.
Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid. This theological theory is named after the British monk Pelagius (354–420 or 440), although he denied, at least at some point in his life, many of the doctrines associated with his name. Pelagius was identified as an Irishman by Saint Jerome.[1] Pelagius taught that the human will, as created with its abilities by God, was sufficient to live a sinless life, although he believed that God's grace assisted every good work. Pelagianism has come to be identified with the view (whether taught by Pelagius or not) that human beings can earn salvation by their own efforts.
source: Pelagianism - Wikipedia
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I gave you a winner because I've noticed that you put a lot of work into your posts and are extremely familiar with the bible and this is to be commended.
I'd like to disagree with two points you've made.
Mathew 5:32
I highlighted your statement above. I'd like to ask how you've come to this conclusion. My learning is that if a wife has an adulteress affair or lives a life of whoredom while married, the husband does have the right to divorce her. I've never heard your concept.
As to original sin: We are left with effects of original sin, but God does not hold us personally responsible for Adam's sin. The reason for Jesus' sacrifice and our need to accept it is for the reason that we have a sin nature in us that tends toward evil and this must be repaired. If Original Sin is understood in this way, I agree. But God does not impute to us the sins of another. Augustine stated we are all personally responsible for Adam's sin. If original sin is understood in this way, I can't agree.
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See Job 28:28. 1 John 4:18. 3 is not talking about THE FEAR OF THE LORD; unless you want to say that perfect love casts out wisdom ans understanding...which you would have to say if you properly connect the dots.
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