The Sabbath-day Law Can Be Violated

Emily Foster said:

Mark 2:27 “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

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Good citation.

Follow up questions:

faroukfarouk said:

The Sabbath was part of the Old Testament law system; the law was changed (Hebrews 7.12) and what we now have is better than the law (Hebrews 7.19).

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Hebrews 7:19 doesn't mention a new law. It speaks of a better hope:


And Hebrews 7:12 is in the context of Hebrews 7:11, a law that was given "under" the Levitical Priesthood. The Ten Commandments existed before the Levitical Prieshood, and was given above all from Heaven by God Himself:

Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16 KJB directly cites Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJB, etc. Ten Commandments, the "my [God's] laws", written upon the Heart by the Holy Ghost, the same who wrote them originally upon stone tables, see also Isaiah 56:1-8 KJB.

The7thColporteur said:

Hebrews 7:19 doesn't mention a new law. It speaks of a better hope:

Hebrews 7:19 KJB - For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.​

And Hebrews 7:12 is in the context of Hebrews 7:11, a law that was given "under" the Levitical Priesthood. The Ten Commandments existed before the Levitical Prieshood, and was given above all from Heaven by God Himself:

Hebrews 7:11 KJB - If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 KJB - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
​

Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16 KJB directly cites Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJB, etc. Ten Commandments, the "my [God's] laws", written upon the Heart by the Holy Ghost, the same who wrote them originally upon stone tables, see also Isaiah 56:1-8 KJB.

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Indeed good post. Many do not realise that the OLD COVENANT was made up of two sets of laws each with different purposes.

THE LAWS OF THE OLD COVENANT

1. GOD'S ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) spoken and written by GOD himself to his people on two tables of stone. (Exodus 20:1-17; 32:16; 32:28) God's LAW was not made by Moses it was made by God alone on two tables of stone and nothing was to be added to it (Deuteronomy 4:1-2). God commanded Moses to keep the Tables of Stone separated from the Mosaic book of the law and both were to be housed in the ARK of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 10:5; Deuteronomy 31:24-26).

That is why God's LAW is referred to in the scriptures as God's LAW or the 10 commandments and not the 613. (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4)

and...

2. The MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT FOR REMISSION OF SIN spoken and written by MOSES to God's people in the BOOK of the COVENANT (Deuteronomy31:9; 24-26; Exodus 24:3-4; 7; Colossians 2:14-17; Deuteronomy 29:21)


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THE MOSAIC BOOK WAS PART OF THE OLD COVEANANT

EXODUS 24 [7], And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

DEUTERONOMY 29 [21], And the LORD shall separate him to evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the COVENANT THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK OF THE LAW.

DEUTERONOMY 31 [26], Take this BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in the SIDE OF THE ARK OF THE COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

2 KINGS 23 [2], And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and HE READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT which was found in the house of the LORD.

2 KINGS 23 [3], And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, TO PERFORM THE WORDS OF THIS COVENANT THAT WERE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK. And all the people stood to the covenant.

2 KINGS 23 [21], And the king commanded all the people, saying, KEEP THE PASSOVER OF THE LORD your God, AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THIS COVENANT.

2 CHRONICLES 34 [30], And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and HE READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT that was found in the house of the LORD.

2 CHRONICLES 34 [31] And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, TO PERFORM THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.

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CONCLUSION: The OLD COVENANT was made up of two sets of laws which included 1. GOD'S ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) and 2. The MOSAIC SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

Both these sets of LAWS had very different PURPOSES under the OLD Covenant.

1. GOD'S ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) where to provide a KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

2. The MOSAIC SHADOW laws from the BOOK OF THE COVENANT of laws and ORDINANCES which included the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL laws were laws for the REMISSION or FORGIVENESS of sin which included the Leviticial PRIESTHOOD and ORDINACES for sin offerings for the SNACTUARY SERVICE. PRIESTHOOD, SACRIFICAL SIN OFFERINGS for FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

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GODS ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) ARE FOREVER

The Law of God (10 commandments) which includes the 4th commandment is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14).
God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7).
It is the very standard of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12).

God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4).It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5). Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfil it ( Matthew 5:17-20 ). The law is the embodiment of truth that instructs ( Romans 2:18-19 ). It is "holy" and "spiritual, " making sin known to us by defining it; therefore, Paul delights in it ( Romans 7:7-14Romans 7:22). The law is good if used properly ( 1 Tim 1:8 ), and is not opposed to the promises of God ( Galatians 3:21 ). Faith does not make the law void, but the Christian establishes the law (Romans 3:31), fulfilling its requirements by walking according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4) through love (Romans 13:10).

You cannot know the power of God or the Gospel of Grace without the 10 commandments. If there is NO LAW then you do not know what SIN is (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). If you do not know what SIN is you have NO need of a Savior. If you have NO need of a Savior you have NO Salvation. If you have NO Salvation you are LOST because it is written.

God's LAW was written and made by God alone on two tables of stone and spoken by God himself to his people and nothing was to be added to it. (God's LAW; Exodus 32:16; 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; 10:4; Exodus 20; Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; Ps 119:172; James 2:8-12; Hebrews 8:10-12; Galatians 3:24; Deuteronomy 5:22; Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 10:4 Ecclesiastse 3:14; Exodus 25:16; Deuteronomy 10:5)

It is called God's LAW or the 10 Commandment, because he was the one alone who made it and commanded Moses to keep in separated from the book of the law in the Ark of the Covenant (Nehemiah 10:29; Deuteronomy 10:4-5; Deuteronomy 31:25-26; Deuteronomy 4:13; Exodus 34:28)

God's LAW was not made by Moses it was made by God alone on two tables of stone and nothing was to be added to it and it was to be separated from the Mosaic book of the law. That is why it is referred to in the scriptures as God's LAW or the 10 commandments (not the 613).

The Mosaic law was made and written and spoken by Moses as directed by God in the book of the covenant. (Mosaic Book of the law; Deuteronomy31:9; Exodus 24:3-4; Deuteronomy 31:24-27; Colossians 2:14-17).

God not only commanded Moses to keep the 10 Commandments separated from the Mosaic book of the law in the Ark of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 10:5; 31:25-26 nothing was to be added to it (Deuteronomy 4:1-2; Deuteronomy 5:22)

God makes a distinction between the 10 Commandments and the book of the law of Moses….

2 Kings 21
8, Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

Do we need more scripture?

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SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

Marco70 said:

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party" stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question

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The problem here is the the people speaking had a very different concept of what it meant to obey the Law of Moses than you do. In the 1st century, there was a large supplementary body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and recences that they taught for how to obey God's Law, which they taught people needed to obey in order to become saved, and which Jesus criticized as placing a heavy burden on the people (Matthew 23:2-4). This is where we get traditions like how far someone can walk or how much someone can lift on the Sabbath before it counts as work, and the Pharisees would not have taught someone to keep the Sabbath without teaching them all of their mountains of traditions that they taught for how to correctly keep it, so Jesus certainly was not criticizing them for teaching the people to obey what God commanded them. The Pharisees even taught that you couldn't obey the Law without knowing their traditions for how they taught to correctly obey it, so they gave a higher authority to their own traditions than to God's Law.

In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they were worshiping God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so Jesus strongly criticized them as hypocrites for not following God's Law and for teaching their own traditions in place of it. As such, we need to be careful not to take a criticism of what the Pharisees were saying or doing as being a criticism of what God command. A prime example of this is in Acts 15:1, where the Pharisees considered the requirement for all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved to be part of the Mosaic Law even though the Mosaic Law does not actually contain that requirement.

So they were not speaking against Gentile obeying God, but only against requiring Gentiles to follow all of these man-made traditions of the elders in order to become saved. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult for us and in 1 John 5:3, it confirms that to love God is to obey His commands and that they are not burdensome, so if Acts 15:10 had been referring to God's commands rather than man-made laws, then they would have been in direct disagreement with God, and would have been essentially saying that Gentiles shouldn't love God.

Marco70 said:

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters
Rom 14:1

Disputable matters are obviously not law written in your mind and placed on your heart. You may take whichever view you like concerning them: Paul gives two examples in the chapter:

One person considers one day more sacred/holy than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind verse 5

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that
nothing is unclean in itself verse14

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. verse20

Of course, our sda friends will, undoubtedly try to do sommersaults with what is plainly stated, and endeavour to use scripture to do it, in order to cling to their views, which are obviously not universal and in line with the NT church.

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The topic of Romans 14 is in regard to disputable matters of opinion, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow His commands, so nothing in the chapter should be taken as Paul speaking against following God, but if you nevertheless remain convinced that Paul was speaking against following God, then we must obey God rather than man, so you should be quicker to disregard what Paul said than to disregard what God commanded.

For example, meat that had be sacrificed to idols was often later sold on the market, so if someone was at a community meal and couldn't verify how the meat had been slaughtered, then they might be of the disputable opinion that only vegetables should be eaten. They were passing judgement on those who ate everything at the meal and were in turn being resented (Romans 14:2-3), and this is exactly the type of judging each other over opinions that Paul was seeking to quell in this chapter.

Whether or not meat can become ritually unclean or common because it had been offering to idols is a different concept than clean and unclean animals. People went through regular cycles of becoming ritually clean and unclean, but clean and unclean animals did not. For example, in Acts 10:14, there is a good reason why Peter objected by saying that he had never eaten anything that was common or unclean instead of just saying that he had never eaten anything that was unclean. So the concept of whether something has become ritually unclean as a matter of human opinion, as Paul was addressing in Romans 14 such as by unknowingly being offering to idols, is distinct from clean and unclean animals as command by God.

In Romans 14:5-6, Paul was speaking in regard to those who were eating or refraining from eating unto to the Lord, so he was speak about those who esteem certain days for fasting. The only day that God commanded His followers to fast is on the Day of Atonement, but as a disputable matter of opinion it had become a common practice to fast twice a week or to commemorate certain events (Luke 18:12). Those who esteems certain days for fasting were passing judgement on those who did not, and even on those who esteemed different days for fasting, so again it is about disputable opinions, not about whether God should be obeyed. So whether someone chooses to fast on other days is a disputable matter of opinion, but whether someone chooses to fast on the Day of Atonement is a matter of obedience to God. We are not to keep God's holy days because we esteemed them, but because God esteemed them and commanded His followers to observe them.

Soyeong said:

The problem here is the the people speaking had a very different concept of what it meant to obey the Law of Moses than you do. In the 1st century, there was a large supplementary body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and recences that they taught for how to obey God's Law, which they taught people needed to obey in order to become saved, and which Jesus criticized as placing a heavy burden on the people (Matthew 23:2-4). This is where we get traditions like how far someone can walk or how much someone can lift on the Sabbath before it counts as work, and the Pharisees would not have taught someone to keep the Sabbath without teaching them all of their mountains of traditions that they taught for how to correctly keep it, so Jesus certainly was not criticizing them for teaching the people to obey what God commanded them. The Pharisees even taught that you couldn't obey the Law without knowing their traditions for how they taught to correctly obey it, so they gave a higher authority to their own traditions than to God's Law.

In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they were worshiping God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so Jesus strongly criticized them as hypocrites for not following God's Law and for teaching their own traditions in place of it. As such, we need to be careful not to take a criticism of what the Pharisees were saying or doing as being a criticism of what God command. A prime example of this is in Acts 15:1, where the Pharisees considered the requirement for all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved to be part of the Mosaic Law even though the Mosaic Law does not actually contain that requirement.

So they were not speaking against Gentile obeying God, but only against requiring Gentiles to follow all of these man-made traditions of the elders in order to become saved. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult for us and in 1 John 5:3, it confirms that to love God is to obey His commands and that they are not burdensome, so if Acts 15:10 had been referring to God's commands rather than man-made laws, then they would have been in direct disagreement with God, and would have been essentially saying that Gentiles shouldn't love God.

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Solid.

Soyeong said:

The topic of Romans 14 is in regard to disputable matters of opinion, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow His commands, so nothing in the chapter should be taken as Paul speaking against following God, but if you nevertheless remain convinced that Paul was speaking against following God, then we must obey God rather than man, so you should be quicker to disregard what Paul said than to disregard what God commanded.

For example, meat that had be sacrificed to idols was often later sold on the market, so if someone was at a community meal and couldn't verify how the meat had been slaughtered, then they might be of the disputable opinion that only vegetables should be eaten. They were passing judgement on those who ate everything at the meal and were in turn being resented (Romans 14:2-3), and this is exactly the type of judging each other over opinions that Paul was seeking to quell in this chapter.

Whether or not meat can become ritually unclean or common because it had been offering to idols is a different concept than clean and unclean animals. People went through regular cycles of becoming ritually clean and unclean, but clean and unclean animals did not. For example, in Acts 10:14, there is a good reason why Peter objected by saying that he had never eaten anything that was common or unclean instead of just saying that he had never eaten anything that was unclean. So the concept of whether something has become ritually unclean as a matter of human opinion, as Paul was addressing in Romans 14 such as by unknowingly being offering to idols, is distinct from clean and unclean animals as command by God.

In Romans 14:5-6, Paul was speaking in regard to those who were eating or refraining from eating unto to the Lord, so he was speak about those who esteem certain days for fasting. The only day that God commanded His followers to fast is on the Day of Atonement, but as a disputable matter of opinion it had become a common practice to fast twice a week or to commemorate certain events (Luke 18:12). Those who esteems certain days for fasting were passing judgement on those who did not, and even on those who esteemed different days for fasting, so again it is about disputable opinions, not about whether God should be obeyed. So whether someone chooses to fast on other days is a disputable matter of opinion, but whether someone chooses to fast on the Day of Atonement is a matter of obedience to God. We are not to keep God's holy days because we esteemed them, but because God esteemed them and commanded His followers to observe them.

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There is a term in mathematics and the numerical sciences like physics, when things are harmoniously brought together in a concise and beautiful, yet simple way - and that word is "Elegance".

And that word ought to apply even moreso to the "science" of redemption and the order, depth, magnificence, magnitude, gracefulness, truthfulness, compellingness and simplicity in God's word.

Therefore in a word, the reply was/is "elegant". Yet, to God be the glory, since all wisdom comes from God, and it is He which brings order, light and truth to the chaos of darkness, superstition and error.

Soyeong said:

The problem here is .

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The problem here is, you do not understand the outworking of the core foundation upon which the Christian faith stands. If you did, you could not consider me, or anyone else a Christian unless they were conscious they committed sin by failing to obey the Mosaic law. Your reasoning to try and explain away why Gentiles were only given four laws to obey, is not credible:

When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: ‘You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living(are living) in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.’
Acts 21:17-25

The above conversation took place years after the council of Jerusalem in Acts ch15. Nothing had changed, Gentiles were still only being asked to follow four Jewish laws. Its irrefutable I'm afraid. If you are correct, the Jerusalem church gave gentile converts a licence to sin

Soyeong said:

The topic of Romans 14 is in regard to disputable matters of opinion, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow His commands, so nothing in the chapter should be taken as Paul speaking against following God, but if you nevertheless remain convinced that Paul was speaking against following God, then we must obey God rather than man, so you should be quicker to disregard what Paul said than to disregard what God commanded.

For example, meat that had be sacrificed to idols was often later sold on the market, so if someone was at a community meal and couldn't verify how the meat had been slaughtered, then they might be of the disputable opinion that only vegetables should be eaten. They were passing judgement on those who ate everything at the meal and were in turn being resented (Romans 14:2-3), and this is exactly the type of judging each other over opinions that Paul was seeking to quell in this chapter.

Whether or not meat can become ritually unclean or common because it had been offering to idols is a different concept than clean and unclean animals. People went through regular cycles of becoming ritually clean and unclean, but clean and unclean animals did not. For example, in Acts 10:14, there is a good reason why Peter objected by saying that he had never eaten anything that was common or unclean instead of just saying that he had never eaten anything that was unclean. So the concept of whether something has become ritually unclean as a matter of human opinion, as Paul was addressing in Romans 14 such as by unknowingly being offering to idols, is distinct from clean and unclean animals as command by God.

In Romans 14:5-6, Paul was speaking in regard to those who were eating or refraining from eating unto to the Lord, so he was speak about those who esteem certain days for fasting. The only day that God commanded His followers to fast is on the Day of Atonement, but as a disputable matter of opinion it had become a common practice to fast twice a week or to commemorate certain events (Luke 18:12). Those who esteems certain days for fasting were passing judgement on those who did not, and even on those who esteemed different days for fasting, so again it is about disputable opinions, not about whether God should be obeyed. So whether someone chooses to fast on other days is a disputable matter of opinion, but whether someone chooses to fast on the Day of Atonement is a matter of obedience to God. We are not to keep God's holy days because we esteemed them, but because God esteemed them and commanded His followers to observe them.

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I disagree with what you believe the topic of rom ch 14 is about.
You do accept don't you the law God desires a NC believer to follow is written in their mind and placed on their heart?

You do accept don't you, that sin is the transgression of the law?

You do accept don't you that through the law we become conscious of sin?

Therefore, how can you accept anyone as a Christian if they have no conviction of sin by failing to observe the Mosaic law? According to your Christian beliefs, I would think it should(should) be impossible

Hello Soyeong.

Your explanation of the text (Acts 15) is excluding a very important point. You explained the issue of circumcision which the Gentiles are not required to obey. Yet you did not mention the law of Moses which the text specifies.

But some of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

You must explain why the Gentiles are not required to obey the law of Moses.

Marco70 said:

The problem here is, you do not understand the outworking of the core foundation upon which the Christian faith stands. If you did, you could not consider me, or anyone else a Christian unless they were conscious they committed sin by failing to obey the Mosaic law. Your reasoning to try and explain away why Gentiles were only given four laws to obey, is not credible:

When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: ‘You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living(are living) in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.’
Acts 21:17-25

The above conversation took place years after the council of Jerusalem in Acts ch15. Nothing had changed, Gentiles were still only being asked to follow four Jewish laws. Its irrefutable I'm afraid. If you are correct, the Jerusalem church gave gentile converts a licence to sin

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There are 1,050 commands in the NT, so to say that the four laws listed in Acts 15:19-21 are an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of mature Gentile believers is to disregard over 99% of the commands in the NT, including those taught by Jesus. Quite clearly it was not intended as an exhaustive list, but as stated it was a list intended not to make things too difficult for new believer coming to faith, which they excused in verse 21 by saying that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. In Acts 21:24-25, James was defending against the false reports that they were teaching Jews against obeying the Law by showing that Paul continued to live in obedience to it and that even the Gentiles were being taught to obey it.

Marco70 said:

I disagree with what you believe the topic of rom ch 14 is about.

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Please explain why you disagree.

You do accept don't you the law God desires a NC believer to follow is written in their mind and placed on their heart?

You do accept don't you, that sin is the transgression of the law?

You do accept don't you that through the law we become conscious of sin?

Therefore, how can you accept anyone as a Christian if they have no conviction of sin by failing to observe the Mosaic law? According to your Christian beliefs, I would think it should(should) be impossible

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When God has revealed something is a sin and you don't think it is a sin, then which one of you is wrong? It is not up to you to decide which things are sin, but rather that is up to God, however, what is up to you is whether you are going to repent and obey by faith or do what is right in your own eyes.

The Mosaic Law was given to make us conscious of sin, it is how the Israelites knew what sin is, without it we wouldn't know what sin is, and sin is defined as the transgression of it. Our salvation is from sin, so our salvation is from living in transgression of the Mosaic Law so that we can be free to live in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do things that were essentially what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do. Our sanctification is about being made to be like Christ, who lived in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law. We can't follow Christ by refusing to repent and follow the Law that he followed and taught His follower to obey by word and by example. It is contradictory for someone to speak about being follower Christ while not only refusing to repent and follow him, but to actively teach against following him. The New Covenant involves God writing the Mosaic Law on our hearts so that we will obey it, not so that we will harden our hearts and pervert that into as an excuse to refuse to repent and obey Him. To love God is to obey His commands, not to seek out every excuse to avoid obeying them.

klutedavid said:

Hello Soyeong.

Your explanation of the text (Acts 15) is excluding a very important point. You explained the issue of circumcision which the Gentiles are not required to obey. Yet you did not mention the law of Moses which the text specifies.

But some of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

You must explain why the Gentiles are not required to obey the law of Moses.

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Hello,

I was already asked about that verse and discussed it in post #185.

The Sabbth-day Law Can Be Violated

klutedavid said:

Hello Soyeong.
You must explain why the Gentiles are not required to obey the law of Moses.

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(EDITED to add ACTS 15 CONTEXT) Just adding the CONTEXT of ACTS 15

ACTS 15:1-2 [1], And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brothers, and said, EXCEPT YOU ARE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES YOU CANNOT BE SAVED. [2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders ABOUT THIS QUESTION.

The above scripture in the CONTEXT of ACTS 15.

Hello David, there are two sets of laws that made up the TORAH. There is...

1, GOD'S ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) and
2. THE SHADOW LAWS OF THE BOOK OF MOSES.

Many people think that the MOSAIC Covenant is only made up of the 10 Commandments this is not biblical. Both God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the Mosaic book of the law made up the Mosaic Covenant.

.................

1. GOD'S ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) spoken and written by GOD himself to his people on two tables of stone. (Exodus 20:1-17; 32:16; 32:28) God's LAW was not made by Moses it was made by God alone on two tables of stone and nothing was to be added to it (Deuteronomy 4:1-2). God commanded Moses to keep the Tables of Stone separated from the Mosaic book of the law and both were to be housed in the ARK of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 10:5; Deuteronomy 31:24-26).

That is why God's LAW is referred to in the scriptures as God's LAW or the 10 commandments and not the 613. (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4)

and...

2. The MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT FOR REMISSION OF SIN spoken and written by MOSES to God's people in the BOOK of the COVENANT (Deuteronomy31:9; 24-26; Exodus 24:3-4; 7; Colossians 2:14-17; Deuteronomy 29:21)

......................

THE SHADOW LAWS OF THE MOSAIC BOOK WAS PART OF THE OLD COVEANANT

EXODUS 24 [7], And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

DEUTERONOMY 29 [21], And the LORD shall separate him to evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the COVENANT THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK OF THE LAW.

DEUTERONOMY 31 [26], Take this BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in the SIDE OF THE ARK OF THE COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

2 KINGS 23 [2], And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and HE READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT which was found in the house of the LORD.

2 KINGS 23 [3], And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, TO PERFORM THE WORDS OF THIS COVENANT THAT WERE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK. And all the people stood to the covenant.

2 KINGS 23 [21], And the king commanded all the people, saying, KEEP THE PASSOVER OF THE LORD your God, AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THIS COVENANT.

2 CHRONICLES 34 [30], And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and HE READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT that was found in the house of the LORD.

2 CHRONICLES 34 [31] And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, TO PERFORM THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.

.................

CONCLUSION: The OLD COVENANT was made up of two sets of laws which included 1. GOD'S ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) and 2. The MOSAIC SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

Both these sets of LAWS had very different PURPOSES under the OLD Covenant.

1. GOD'S ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) where to provide a KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

2. The MOSAIC SHADOW laws from the BOOK OF THE COVENANT of laws and ORDINANCES which included the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL laws were laws for the REMISSION or FORGIVENESS of sin which included the Leviticial PRIESTHOOD and ORDINACES for sin offerings for the SNACTUARY SERVICE. PRIESTHOOD, SACRIFICAL SIN OFFERINGS for FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

.................

GODS ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) ARE FOREVER

The Law of God (10 commandments) which includes the 4th commandment is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14).
God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7).
It is the very standard of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12).

God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4).It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5). Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfil it ( Matthew 5:17-20 ). The law is the embodiment of truth that instructs ( Romans 2:18-19 ). It is "holy" and "spiritual, " making sin known to us by defining it; therefore, Paul delights in it ( Romans 7:7-14Romans 7:22). The law is good if used properly ( 1 Tim 1:8 ), and is not opposed to the promises of God ( Galatians 3:21 ). Faith does not make the law void, but the Christian establishes the law (Romans 3:31), fulfilling its requirements by walking according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4) through love (Romans 13:10).

You cannot know the power of God or the Gospel of Grace without the 10 commandments. If there is NO LAW then you do not know what SIN is (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). If you do not know what SIN is you have NO need of a Savior. If you have NO need of a Savior you have NO Salvation. If you have NO Salvation you are LOST because it is written.

God's LAW was written and made by God alone on two tables of stone and spoken by God himself to his people and nothing was to be added to it. (God's LAW; Exodus 32:16; 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; 10:4; Exodus 20; Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; Ps 119:172; James 2:8-12; Hebrews 8:10-12; Galatians 3:24; Deuteronomy 5:22; Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 10:4 Ecclesiastse 3:14; Exodus 25:16; Deuteronomy 10:5)

It is called God's LAW or the 10 Commandment, because he was the one alone who made it and commanded Moses to keep in separated from the book of the law in the Ark of the Covenant (Nehemiah 10:29; Deuteronomy 10:4-5; Deuteronomy 31:25-26; Deuteronomy 4:13; Exodus 34:28)

God's LAW was not made by Moses it was made by God alone on two tables of stone and nothing was to be added to it and it was to be separated from the Mosaic book of the law. That is why it is referred to in the scriptures as God's LAW or the 10 commandments (not the 613).

The Mosaic law was made and written and spoken by Moses as directed by God in the book of the covenant. (Mosaic Book of the law; Deuteronomy31:9; Exodus 24:3-4; Deuteronomy 31:24-27; Colossians 2:14-17).

God not only commanded Moses to keep the 10 Commandments separated from the Mosaic book of the law in the Ark of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 10:5; 31:25-26 nothing was to be added to it (Deuteronomy 4:1-2; Deuteronomy 5:22)

God makes a distinction between the 10 Commandments and the book of the law of Moses….

2 Kings 21
8, Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

Together God's ETERNAL LAW and the SHADOW laws of the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT made up the OLD COVENANT (Torah)

Do we need more scripture?

PS.. Goodness I just realised this was posted twice (apologies all)

Soyeong said:

Hello,

I was already asked about that verse and discussed it in post #185.

The Sabbth-day Law Can Be Violated

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Hi Soyeong, I had a look at your linked post. While I agree that the Pharasee made there own traditional laws these were not God's LAW and not the Shadow laws of Moses from the Book of the Covenant which was also included in the side of the ARK of the Covenant. ACTS 15 is in relation to Shadow laws and ORDINANCES the dispute was over circumcision as a means of salvation which was a shadow of circumcision of the heart.

Soyeong said:

The problem here is the the people speaking had a very different concept of what it meant to obey the Law of Moses than you do. In the 1st century, there was a large supplementary body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and recences that they taught for how to obey God's Law, which they taught people needed to obey in order to become saved, and which Jesus criticized as placing a heavy burden on the people (Matthew 23:2-4). This is where we get traditions like how far someone can walk or how much someone can lift on the Sabbath before it counts as work, and the Pharisees would not have taught someone to keep the Sabbath without teaching them all of their mountains of traditions that they taught for how to correctly keep it, so Jesus certainly was not criticizing them for teaching the people to obey what God commanded them. The Pharisees even taught that you couldn't obey the Law without knowing their traditions for how they taught to correctly obey it, so they gave a higher authority to their own traditions than to God's Law.

In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they were worshiping God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so Jesus strongly criticized them as hypocrites for not following God's Law and for teaching their own traditions in place of it. As such, we need to be careful not to take a criticism of what the Pharisees were saying or doing as being a criticism of what God command. A prime example of this is in Acts 15:1, where the Pharisees considered the requirement for all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved to be part of the Mosaic Law even though the Mosaic Law does not actually contain that requirement.

So they were not speaking against Gentile obeying God, but only against requiring Gentiles to follow all of these man-made traditions of the elders in order to become saved. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult for us and in 1 John 5:3, it confirms that to love God is to obey His commands and that they are not burdensome, so if Acts 15:10 had been referring to God's commands rather than man-made laws, then they would have been in direct disagreement with God, and would have been essentially saying that Gentiles shouldn't love God.

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Soyeong, you managed to evade the question.

The text (Acts 15) does not say anything about traditions, the text directly specifies the law of Moses.

Your reply must answer the question, here is the text again.

But some of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

Please explain why the Gentiles were not directed to obey the law of Moses?

klutedavid said:

Soyeong, you managed to evade the question.

The text (Acts 15) does not say anything about traditions, the text directly specifies the law of Moses.

Your reply must answer the question, here is the text again.

But some of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

Please explain why the Gentiles were not directed to obey the law of Moses?

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Hello David did you see my post to you in post # 195 which addresses your question directly with scripture?

Soyeong said:

There are 1,050 commands in the NT, so to say that the four laws listed in Acts 15:19-21 are an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of mature Gentile believers is to disregard over 99% of the commands in the NT, including those taught by Jesus. Quite clearly it was not intended as an exhaustive list, but as stated it was a list intended not to make things too difficult for new believer coming to faith, which they excused in verse 21 by saying that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. In Acts 21:24-25, James was defending against the false reports that they were teaching Jews against obeying the Law by showing that Paul continued to live in obedience to it and that even the Gentiles were being taught to obey it.

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Acts21:25 was stated years after the council of Jerusalem in Acts c15. So it had nothing to do with new converts. According to your belief, the Jerusalem church went on and on giving gentile converts a licence to sin, It is ridiculous.
You clearly do not understand the core foundation upon which the Christian faith stands. It is not an external law anymore, it is an internal law written on human minds and placed on human hearts. You in your mind must know what is in your mind. And law placed on your heart, MUST bring heartfelt conviction of sin if you wilfully transgress it. You surely should agree, given your acceptance that sin is the transgression of the law.
I'm afraid if you don't build on the correct foundation, what follows the foundation is faulty. I tire of this conversation. Why not discuss with sda members which laws are relevant for the Christian. They, like you believe you have to read the OT law to know which laws must befollowed. That is not my Christianity, and I am very grateful it is not

Soyeong said:

Please explain why you disagree.



When God has revealed something is a sin and you don't think it is a sin, then which one of you is wrong? It is not up to you to decide which things are sin, but rather that is up to God, however, what is up to you is whether you are going to repent and obey by faith or do what is right in your own eyes.

The Mosaic Law was given to make us conscious of sin, it is how the Israelites knew what sin is, without it we wouldn't know what sin is, and sin is defined as the transgression of it. Our salvation is from sin, so our salvation is from living in transgression of the Mosaic Law so that we can be free to live in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do things that were essentially what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do. Our sanctification is about being made to be like Christ, who lived in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law. We can't follow Christ by refusing to repent and follow the Law that he followed and taught His follower to obey by word and by example. It is contradictory for someone to speak about being follower Christ while not only refusing to repent and follow him, but to actively teach against following him. The New Covenant involves God writing the Mosaic Law on our hearts so that we will obey it, not so that we will harden our hearts and pervert that into as an excuse to refuse to repent and obey Him. To love God is to obey His commands, not to seek out every excuse to avoid obeying them.

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I refer you to my previous response