Hostility between LDS and mainstream Christians

dzheremi · May 3, 2018

He is the way said:
Jesus knew who we are:

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Here Christ Jesus is making a point about HIMSELF, not us, before the Jews who sought to stone him:

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

+++

You cannot take the first part of the answer in isolation as though He does not connect it to Himself in the following verse, which you very conveniently and awkwardly left out (I imagine precisely because it shows your reading to be completely in error). This is a bit too obvious to be considered a mere error, since you chopped off the quotation mid-sentence. Taken within the context of the entire passage, as above, it is clear that the Mormon reading is not just fanciful, but downright deceptive and false. Lord have mercy.

He is the way · May 3, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
With God, His substance is His Nature and His Essence. It's from this understanding we can say God is Love. God is Life. God doesn't possess these attributes like a creature but is those attributes. Substance as it pertains to God is also His Nature and Essence.
The oneness exclusive to God is reasoned out from 'always been'. There are three realities in the bible that are revealed as having 'always been'. In the beginning....Jesus is the beginning and in Him all things are. God created. This is the Father, it's his will that is originating the creative act. Through the Father's Word who is Jesus He speaks everything into being. Like the warmth of the sun on your face, the Spirit of God moves "like the River of Life" on the waters. These are the three persons being God. If a person has always been, it follows, that person is not created. Not a creature like every other being. There are only three persons that are uncreated and always being. They are one in being uncreated and having always been. The oneness of will, of purpose, and such, are unity that created beings possess as divine gifts united to God but can't make a created thing uncreated or be without beginning. That is the exclusive kind of One in Being that only the three Divine Persons are. That is Natural to them, and Essential to Being God. That is the substance that Jesus is with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Very exclusive club. If another claims to have always been it wouldn't constitute another being but another person in the one being of God. If you claim an entire people as having always been,by definition they are uncreated so they can't reasonably be called gods but they would be a multitude of divine persons being One God. They too would be consubstantial with the Father. That's just silliness though.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God ( the Father and the Son)created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God ( yup) moved upon the face of the waters.

God means (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) all one God. The Spirit of God usually refers to the Holy Ghost. What does in the beginning refer to, the beginning of God, the beginning of time, the beginning of the universe, the beginning of the earth, or what? The Bible does not say what so we can speculate or wonder until God reveals it to us. Jesus taught how God is one:
(New Testament | John 17:20 - 24)

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

He is the way · May 3, 2018

dzheremi said:
Here Christ Jesus is making a point about HIMSELF, not us, before the Jews who sought to stone him:

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

+++

You cannot take the first part of the answer in isolation as though He does not connect it to Himself in the following verse, which you very conveniently and awkwardly left out (I imagine precisely because it shows your reading to be completely in error). This is a bit too obvious to be considered a mere error, since you chopped off the quotation mid-sentence. Taken within the context of the entire passage, as above, it is clear that the Mormon reading is not just fanciful, but downright deceptive and false. Lord have mercy.

Quoting the whole Bible would not change a thing. Quoting that whole chapter would not change anything. Your explanation does not change the fact that Jesus called us gods not once but twice. Paul said:
(New Testament | Philippians 3:14 - 15)

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

BigDaddy4 · May 3, 2018

He is the way said:
So did Paul:

(New Testament | Philippians 3:14 - 15)

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

So did Paul what?

BigDaddy4 · May 3, 2018

He is the way said:
Jesus knew who we are:

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Irrelevant. The question was not who "we" are. And it was specifically addressed to Jane_Doe to clarify her remarks that I included in my post.

twin.spin · May 3, 2018

dzheremi said:
Here Christ Jesus is making a point about HIMSELF, not us, before the Jews who sought to stone him:

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

+++

You cannot take the first part of the answer in isolation as though He does not connect it to Himself in the following verse, which you very conveniently and awkwardly left out (I imagine precisely because it shows your reading to be completely in error). This is a bit too obvious to be considered a mere error, since you chopped off the quotation mid-sentence. Taken within the context of the entire passage, as above, it is clear that the Mormon reading is not just fanciful, but downright deceptive and false. Lord have mercy.

When Jesus answered:

“Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’

he was quoting Psalm 82:6 which the context of Psalm 82 was not complimentary toward the people whom is referred to as "gods".

Psalm 82 KJV

God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked?

They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness:
all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Psalm 82 (which Jesus referred to) reveals that such people (" the 'gods' ") are :

the unjust
persons of the wicked
The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
They are the reason for all the earth's foundation being messed up

dzheremi · May 3, 2018

Yes. I am aware of this. I think the point was however in the usage of the term "God" for which He was accused of blasphemy, essentially saying "Your own law already says you are sons of God, so why are you wanting to stone me for saying so about myself in a unique way, and proving it?" The people who wanted to stone Jesus understood Him to be making a different claim than those who would have already accepted being 'sons of God' in the lesser, if you will 'non-equational' sense. That's why they thought it blasphemy, even though it was written in their law that they are sons of God.

Mormons are in some sense making the same mistake (not discerning the correct meaning), but in the opposite direction by taking every mention of 'sons of God' in the scripture to be an affirmation of the literal, fleshly apotheosis that their religion teaches, without understanding that it is not always complimentary (as you have rightly pointed out), and does not always mean what it means when applied to Christ by Himself and others.

Christ is unique. Christ is the Only-Begotten Son of God. The rest of us are workers of the eleventh hour.

He is the way · May 3, 2018

BigDaddy4 said:
So did Paul what?

Paul knew we could be equal to God:

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

(New Testament | Philippians 3:14 - 15)

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

He is the way · May 3, 2018

twin.spin said:
When Jesus answered:

“Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’
he was quoting Psalm 82:6 which the context of Psalm 82 was not complimentary toward the people whom is referred to as "gods".

Psalm 82 KJV

God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked?

They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness:
all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Psalm 82 (which Jesus referred to) reveals that such people (" the 'gods' ") are :

the unjust

persons of the wicked

The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.

They walk about in darkness;

They are the reason for all the earth's foundation being messed up

Who told you this? Why did you believe them? This description does not fit with John 10: 31-35. The context is way off.

He is the way · May 3, 2018

dzheremi said:
Yes. I am aware of this. I think the point was however in the usage of the term "God" for which He was accused of blasphemy, essentially saying "Your own law already says you are sons of God, so why are you wanting to stone me for saying so about myself in a unique way, and proving it?" The people who wanted to stone Jesus understood Him to be making a different claim than those who would have already accepted being 'sons of God' in the lesser, if you will 'non-equational' sense. That's why they thought it blasphemy, even though it was written in their law that they are sons of God.

Mormons are in some sense making the same mistake (not discerning the correct meaning), but in the opposite direction by taking every mention of 'sons of God' in the scripture to be an affirmation of the literal, fleshly apotheosis that their religion teaches, without understanding that it is not always complimentary (as you have rightly pointed out), and does not always mean what it means when applied to Christ by Himself and others.

Christ is unique. Christ is the Only-Begotten Son of God. The rest of us are workers of the eleventh hour.

And our work is to tell people to repent and keep the commandments.

dzheremi · May 3, 2018

Arrogance. If that is so, it would be good that you should keep the Lord's commandments in the first place, and not set up out of the delusions of one man a parallel religion to replace what He has established. But anyway...

Eloy Craft · May 3, 2018

He is the way said:
What does in the beginning refer to, the beginning of God, the beginning of time, the beginning of the universe, the beginning of the earth, or what? The Bible does not say what so we can speculate or wonder until God reveals it to us. Jesus taught how God is one:
(New Testament | John 17:20 - 24)

He is the way said:
God means (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) all one God. The Spirit of God usually refers to the Holy Ghost. What does in the beginning refer to, the beginning of God, the beginning of time, the beginning of the universe, the beginning of the earth, or what? The Bible does not say what so we can speculate or wonder until God reveals it to us. Jesus taught how God is one:
(New Testament | John 17:20 - 24)

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

I think that makes something simple, complex. The text describes an actor(God) and an act(created)
God created. What begins is plainly expressed. The act not the actor.

In the begginning Adam painted. Adam said I will make paint. So Adam made paint. Then Adam said.........

There is no confusion about what is beginning unless complexity is forced onto the text.

He is the way · May 3, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
I think that makes something simple, complex. The text describes an actor(God) and an act(created)
God created. What begins is plainly expressed. The act not the actor.

In the begginning Adam painted. Adam said I will make paint. So Adam made paint. Then Adam said.........

There is no confusion about what is beginning unless complexity is forced onto the text.

If you believe that God has existed throughout all eternity then there is no beginning. However the Bible states that there is a beginning. The Bible just does not state what the beginning is of.

Rescued One · May 3, 2018

He is the way said:
Jesus knew who we are:

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

To whom was it said?

He is the way said:
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Rescued One · May 3, 2018

He is the way said:
If you believe that God has existed throughout all eternity then there is no beginning. However the Bible states that there is a beginning. The Bible just does not state what the beginning is of.

God had no beginning. Man did.

Rescued One · May 3, 2018

He is the way said:
All of the angels are spirit children of God. Some have lived and some haven't.

They are created beings, a species separate from man.

Eloy Craft · May 3, 2018

He is the way said:
If you believe that God has existed throughout all eternity then there is no beginning. However the Bible states that there is a beginning. The Bible just does not state what the beginning is of.

There was a beginning, God is in it with His creatures. The actor can't be the act. If the act creates everything that is not the actor, then all things find their ultimate source of being IN that beginning.

Now if all that God created isn't all, but contains the God of this universe, and exists in a prior universe, and if that's what the author meant his readers to understand, Genesis would read "when God created" That wouldn't be mysterious at all and would be easily understood by any reader. But time didn't exist until it existed 'IN' the beginning.

Eloy Craft · May 4, 2018

He is the way said:
If you believe that God has existed throughout all eternity then there is no beginning.

If I am right about what you mean. Your theology can't posit that God had a beginning. It's impossible to develop a reasonable theology of a creator God that has a beginning.

Rescued One · May 4, 2018

He is the way said:
All of the angels are spirit children of God. Some have lived and some haven't.

Zero angels are brothers to humans, zero existed eternally, angels are a separate species.

Eloy Craft · May 4, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
Zero angels are brothers to humans, zero existed eternally, angels are a separate species.

I grew up in Mesa Az. Not more than a couple of miles from the Temple. My Mormon friends would tell me that they were taught that going to heaven for them meant making their own world and that's what the God of this world did. Is that not being taught anymore? This was back in the 70's.

Hostility between LDS and mainstream Christians

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