There are a couple of truths which went right over the heads of those writing up the creeds.
1, The Jews of the Sanhedrin in Jesus day were in a state of apostasy, the one god they worshiped was a false god. Malachi had told them they were worshiping the daughter of a strange god. They no longer worshiped El as their Father and supreme God. They had merged El and Yahweh into one god, a false god. That’s what most of the augments between Jesus and the Jews was about. They didn’t know the Father.
But there were a small sect of Jews who held on to the older tradition of Father and Son.
John 1 “ Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel/Yahweh.”
Also John 14
“ Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.”
Both of these men assumed the Father and Son were two separate beings.
2, The medieval Christians did not understand the Jewish custom or cultural significance of agent. The following is from the Jewish Encyclopedia.
“The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The person who binds a principal in this manner is his agent, known in Jewish law as shelua? or shelia? (one that is sent): the relation of the former to the latter is known as agency (shelihut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself “
Now lets apply these to ideas to John 5
17 ¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
This is what an agent was considered, a man’s agent is like himself especially in a father son relationship. With their believe in one God only this was blasphemy.
But Jesus makes another point; Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, …. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
In other words he was saying the Father is greater than I but he gives me the power to judge. So that means he is not the Father, he is separate being from the Father.
Then he says;
“That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him…. I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me…And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me….I am come in my Father’s name,..”
Again using the principle of agent, the idea of one sent to represent a principal Jesus is not saying he is the Father in anyway shape or form.
Even in the Old Testament this holds true;
*In Mal 2 Yahweh explains his agent or mediator position
8 And if ye offer the blind for /El that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the Lord of hosts.
So they lay their offering on Yahweh’s alter asking him to beach El in their behave.
*You see it again in Isa 43; “ I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.” and then he says “I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.”
If there is no other God to who is Yahweh pleading?
*Ex 6
2 And God(s) spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God/El Almighty/Shadday but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
So he spoke to Abraham as the agent of El and didn’t use his own name until he spoke to Moses. It is as if Yahweh is reading a letter from El to Abraham.
*In John 5 Jesus said;
“If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true…But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me….”
In Isa 42 there is a precursor to the day of Jesus’ baptism when an un-named voice which must be the Father makes a statement of authority.
“1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.”
He is sending his son, and he has the authority to speak for him.
And then Yahweh/Jesus speaks declaring his own authority.
5 ¶ Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
* in John 14 the way to understand this lies with verse 20
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”
He is speaking by way of symbolism or metaphorically and not reality.
It is odd how you take “ Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” as a metaphor and we don’t. We think “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father” as symbolic and you don’t.
He also says “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”
Is he going to himself? And how is he greater than himself? Or is he himself? The Trinity makes one throw out all logic.
Let’s go back to the Jewish Encyclopedia
“A man's agent is like himself "
This statement
“Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father..”
isn’t given in isolation.
“Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me…. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.” John 12
“ Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God..” John 13
He was trying to make the people understand that he is the agent of the Father and so if you have seen Him you have seen the Father.
No hocus-pocus consubstantial and I don’t have to believe in it to be a Christian.
The Bible teaches a Father and Son relationship with Jesus being the mediator between us and our Father in Heaven. That’s the God I’m going to worship.
I'de better go to bed, I work in 6 hours. I hope we can take this up again later. Bye and God's blessings
