Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

LoveofTruth · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
There isn't ANY verse that says anything about the possibility of leaving the state of eternal life. Your imagination is creative, but not supported by Scripture.

1 John 3:15
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Can a believer fall into this sin. If so then even though he was abiding in Christ and had Jesus Christ ( eternal life) abiding in him, if he hates his brother he is in darkness and abides in death not life.

"9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now."

and who can forget this clear chapter about abiding

"4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned....
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

and Johns words about abiding in connection to eternal life, with the condition "IF".

"24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

FreeGrace2 · May 3, 2018

I asked:
"OK, explain to me what "saving faith" means to you."

EmSw said:
Saving faith is the internal acknowledgement of truth. Every word Jesus spoke is truth, since He is Truth Itself. This comes from the heart and not a verbal assent.

This is hardly clear. Seems more like a dodge.

Of course very word that Jesus spoke is THE truth. So it seems your answer is that one MUST understand EVERY WORD that Jesus spoke and spoke, in order to be saved.

Does that reflect your understanding of saving faith?

So, if man was born lost, as you say, you would lie to the parents of a deceased newborn, and tell them their baby was in heaven? You wouldn't want them to know the truth you believe?

I would of course tell them what the Bible says and teaches. And there would be no lie. We know from King David's experience with his newborn with Bathsheba that the baby went to heaven, where David knew he would be someday as well.

Your weak attempts at "gotcha" questions fall flat.

So, is it the 'stupidity' of sheep (man) which saves him?

Your gotcha question fails again.

I do take His word as truth, such as, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.' I don't look for excuses to believe it is otherwise than what He said.

I explained ALL that He told the rich man and showed WHY the rich man left sad.

You've failed to answer any of my questions regarding this encounter. Why?

You're hung up on the opening salvo, and ignoring the whole conversation.

But the reason is clear; when the whole conversation is considered, your claims are refuted soundly.

Jesus made very clear that no human being is able to keep the commandments to receive eternal life.

Your claim of believing everything Jesus said falls flat because of your hang up in Matt 19 and Jesus' opening salvo. In fact, that 1 verse is the ONLY time Jesus said anything about keeping commandments to "enter life". When He spoke of having eternal life, it was ALWAYS based on trusting in HIm for it. Not keeping commandments, which we see clearly from Matt 19 that even the rich man couldn't keep them. And Jesus corrected the man's idea of what was 'good'. He said only God is good. That leaves man out in th cold.

But if you think you're good enough to keep all the commandments all the time, knock yourself out. But that attitude is just another example of your rejection of what Jesus actually taught.

So, the rubber hits the road here. Do you agree that a sheep can be lost and need salvation? I'm going to copy what I wrote earlier.

All humans are in need of salvation. That's why Jesus went to the cross that you mock.

Matthew 18:11
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Jesus came to save that which was lost (condemned, dead). He was sent to the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel. Do you now believe His sheep can be lost and in need of salvation?

No. When you say "His sheep", I take that as saved people, which are NOT in need of salvation. They already have it.

If you'd have said "the sheep" in line with John 10, I would have agreed with you.

Okay, you are a reverse universalist. Do that make you feel better? If everyone is born lost, then that's the only reasonable thing to believe.

Please answer this: who is born saved? That should clear up all the confusion you create.

I'm trying to show you that your belief is wrong. But you won't even look for yourself to see this wasn't so. NOWHERE will you find in the OT anyone believing in the Messiah for salvation.

I'm so tired of your total dishonesty. Here is the solid proof, that you've rejected.
Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

I'll say this as gently as I can. Only a stupid person could read all these verses and think that salvation in the OT was different than in the NT.

FreeGrace2 · May 3, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
No believer will perish as long as they abide in Christ through faith.

Why do you continue to disagree with Jesus Christ? He gave no conditions to those He gives eternal life in order to not perish.

If your claim was true, this is what He would have HAD TO SAY:
"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they continue to abide in Me, they shall never perish."

The words in red reflect your claim. They represent a condition beyond receiving eternal life. Your claim VIOLATES the actual words of John 10:28.

How come you can't see this?

The scriptures teaches that we are kept by the power of God, yes we agree, but only through faith

1 Peter 1:5
"Who are kept by the power of God through faith..."[/QUOTE]
Do you think Jesus was not familiar with this verse?

So if we do not abide in Christ through faith and have an evil heart of unbelief we are not kept and will perish, as Jesus says in John 15 when speaking about abiding and not abiding (through faith) .

Your view is in direct contrast to what Jesus said in John 10:28.

How can you not see this.

My question to you.

FreeGrace2 · May 3, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
1 John 3:15
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Can a believer fall into this sin. If so then even though he was abiding in Christ and had Jesus Christ ( eternal life) abiding in him, if he hates his brother he is in darkness and abides in death not life.

2 questions for you, based on your comments here:
1. Did Jesus die for ALL sins, or just some of them?
2. If you understanding of 1 John 3:15 is correct, why did Jesus contradict this Scripture?

All of your comments about abiding are in error since you've rejected the issue of fellowship, which is the basis of John's first epistle.

EmSw · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I asked:
"OK, explain to me what "saving faith" means to you."

This is hardly clear. Seems more like a dodge.

Of course very word that Jesus spoke is THE truth. So it seems your answer is that one MUST understand EVERY WORD that Jesus spoke and spoke, in order to be saved.

I did not say 'understand' EVERY WORD that Jesus spoke in order to be saved. I said faith is an internal acknowledge of the truth. Can a person be saved without acknowledging the truth?

FreeGrace2 said:
Does that reflect your understanding of saving faith?

I've told you what reflects my understanding of saving faith.

FreeGrace2 said:
I would of course tell them what the Bible says and teaches. And there would be no lie. We know from King David's experience with his newborn with Bathsheba that the baby went to heaven, where David knew he would be someday as well.

So, lost newborns go to heaven? If they go to heaven, then they are not lost.

FreeGrace2 said:
Your weak attempts at "gotcha" questions fall flat.

Your gotcha question fails again.

They sure riled you up.

FreeGrace2 said:
I explained ALL that He told the rich man and showed WHY the rich man left sad.

You've failed to answer any of my questions regarding this encounter. Why?

You're hung up on the opening salvo, and ignoring the whole conversation.

But the reason is clear; when the whole conversation is considered, your claims are refuted soundly.

Jesus made very clear that no human being is able to keep the commandments to receive eternal life.

I did answer, but they zoomed over your head. Jesus never said anyone was not able to keep His commandments to receive eternal life. Paul may have said it, but Jesus didn't.

To keep His commandments, one must humble themselves, submit themselves to God, and obey what He said. Those with pride in themselves won't even attempt to keep them, nor are they able. In fact, they will deny these words of Jesus.

FreeGrace2 said:
Your claim of believing everything Jesus said falls flat because of your hang up in Matt 19 and Jesus' opening salvo. In fact, that 1 verse is the ONLY time Jesus said anything about keeping commandments to "enter life". When He spoke of having eternal life, it was ALWAYS based on trusting in HIm for it. Not keeping commandments, which we see clearly from Matt 19 that even the rich man couldn't keep them. And Jesus corrected the man's idea of what was 'good'. He said only God is good. That leaves man out in th cold.

But if you think you're good enough to keep all the commandments all the time, knock yourself out. But that attitude is just another example of your rejection of what Jesus actually taught.

Only those who trust Him will obey and keep His commandments. Jesus didn't rebuke the rich man when he said he kept the commandments. As I said earlier, no one is good but God, refers to the rich man calling Jesus 'Good Teacher', not about keeping His commandments.

FreeGrace2 said:
All humans are in need of salvation. That's why Jesus went to the cross that you mock.

No. When you say "His sheep", I take that as saved people, which are NOT in need of salvation. They already have it.

If you'd have said "the sheep" in line with John 10, I would have agreed with you.

The 'lost sheep of the house of Israel' are His sheep. And it is these He came to seek and save.

FreeGrace2 said:
Please answer this: who is born saved? That should clear up all the confusion you create.

No one needs salvation unless he actually sins. There is no condemnation for the sinless.

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm so tired of your total dishonesty. Here is the solid proof, that you've rejected.
Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

I'll say this as gently as I can. Only a stupid person could read all these verses and think that salvation in the OT was different than in the NT.

Since you have failed many times to show any OT passage which speaks of receiving life, I will give you some.

Proverbs 10:16
The labor of the righteous leads to life, the wages of the wicked to sin.

Proverbs 21:21
He who follows righteousness and mercy finds life, righteousness, and honor.

Ezekiel 13:22
Because with lies you have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and you have strengthened the hands of the wicked, so that he does not turn from his wicked way to save his life.

I will add more as time allows. It sure was easy finding these passages; I wonder why you have such a hard time finding them.

LoveofTruth · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Please go back to ch 1, where the word "fellowship" is mentioned only 4 times! That's the basis for the book. Therefore, to "abide in Christ" is about fellowship.

I quoted from the same book chapter 2 this

1 John 2 - 24. Let that therefore abide in you [let the word of God abide in you as John spoke of], which ye have heard from the beginning. If [conditional word] that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. [continuing in the Son and the Father is to continue in eternal life, to not do so is to be in darkness and not continue in the Son and the Father] 25. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.[this promise of eternal life is only for those who abide and let the word abide in them “

You don't seem to understand what "fellowship with the Father and the Son is". This word "fellowship" means a sharer with or partnership, participation. No Believer who walks in darkness has any fellowship with the father and the Son they do not share anything with the father and the Son if they walk in darkness and unbelief etc. They are not a partner with God or participate in His life in them in the light if they abide not and walk in darkness in unbelief.

They are in darkness as john said in the first chapter. If they say they are in the light (or are saved in Christ and walk in His light) they lie and do not the truth. And all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.

"6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if [conditional word] we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."[the strong implication here from vs 6 and 7 that is , if you do not walk in the light but instead walk in darkness you do not have the blood of Jesus Christ cleaning you from all sin](1 John 1:6,7 KJV)

John also said about those who do not abide in Christ and who would walk in darkness and unbelief and in sin. We cannot ignore the entire book in context

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

So for a person to day they have seen him or known him while they walk in the darkness they lie. We only can say we are in him and continue in the father and the Son if we abide by faith and walk in the light.

But how many are saying they are in the light of Christ in salvation as they walk in wilfull darkness and do not abide in Christ nor let his word abide in them. They lie as John said.

John also said as I have been saying here,

"11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."

[this is like chapter 1 verse 24 where if they let the word abide in them they will continue in the Son. Showing a condition, "if" attached to eternal life. That condition has always been to abide" in Christ or to remain and continue in Him through faith.]

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."(1 John 5:11,12 KJV)

So to continue in the Son and in the Father is to continue in eternal life, and part of this eternal life is our fellowship with the Son and the father, or our partnership, and sharer with the Son and the Father.

LoveofTruth · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible also says very clearly that whoever believes possesses eternal life. Jn 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47. This means they HAVE it when they believe.
The Bible also says very clearly that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28.

I already showed you that eternal life is Jesus Christ in them. If they abide in him they abide in eternal life if they abide not they are cast forth as a branch and withered and cast into the fire. In 1 John also he speaks of this abiding in the word and adds the condition for the promise of eternal life and says "if" they abide and the word remains in them and continue in the Son they have the promise of eternal life ( 1 John 2:24,25 KJV).

So eternal life is Jesus Christ and we appropriate this life to us by faith and if we continue in the faith. If we do we shall never perish and as we abide with Christ we continue in the Son and the father.

FreeGrace2 said:
There isn't ANY verse that says anything about the possibility of leaving the state of eternal life. Your imagination is creative, but not supported by Scripture.

Yes there is and I have shown many. There are also many verses that show a person can fall away from salvation and end up in the lake of fire.

Judas is a strong case and I was focusing on his story here. He was called a sheep by Jesus ( as a sheep, for no one is literally a sheep) and sent to the LOST sheep. Jesus said he gives his sheep eternal life. So Judas was given eternal life (Jesus Christ in him) and he betrayed Jesus in time and Satan entered into Him and he was lost and fell by transgression. Judas is a good example of falling away from salvation. Clearly to the unbiased reader. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus n whom he once trusted. Jesus doesn't trust devils.

FreeGrace2 said:
The word "reap" is key here. It refers to what is earned. Is salvation earned? No, if grace is the means by which we are saved.

Oh, right! We ARE saved by grace. So says Eph 2:8.

So, to "reap eternal life" is a reference to eternal reward, .

James says, show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works. We as believers can show forth the works of God in our life and this show our faith and the evidence of it and that we are in eternal life. if we do not have any works our faith is vain, empty, no Jesus Christ ( eternal life) working in us.

So as long as we abide in Christ and walk in the light and His word from the new man, we can do all things and show forth the sowing to the spirit and reap everlasting life. But if we walk in the flesh and not in the spirit we will not be in the eternal life and we will not reap everlasting life but instead corruption. If we walk in the flesh we shall die. But if we through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body we shall live (Romans)

The text says,

Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

The word "reap" simply means to collect or to harvest. It means that the result of such actions will be to collect eternal life or corruption.

The a clear contrast here, as John said similar if a man walks in darkness and says he is in the light he lies, if a man works righteousness (through God working him in and reflecting the life of Christ in his actions) then he is sowing to the spirit and shall reap everlasting life. As long as we abide in faith in Christ God will be working in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work. This is sowing to the spirit and abiding in the word and walking in the word, Walking in the spirit and walking in the word are similar and connected. Believers must live in the spirit and walk in the spirit, if not they do not continue in the Son and the father and are not walking in the life.

But if a believer sows to the flesh he shall reap corruption or damnation, for in the flesh dwelleth no good thing. And believers are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. If a believer walks in the flesh he has condemnation (Romans 8:1 KJV). And if he commiteth sin he is of the devil not of God ( 1 John 3:8 KJV) and he does not now God or hath seen him while in that state of darkness and is in danger ( 1 John 3;6 KJV)

And as I have been showing Jesus Christ is eternal life and he is either abiding in a person or not abiding in them.

" That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us(1 John 1:1,2 KJV)

"20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."(1 John 5:20 KJV)

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

And yes Jesus died for all sin. But if you are a murderer and have your brother as long as you are in that hatred you can not say you are in eternal life or eternal life is in you. You lie if you say you are in the light and walk in darkness. To hate your brother shows you are lost in darkness.

"9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now."(1 John 2:9 KJV)

LoveofTruth · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
2 questions for you, based on your comments here:
1. Did Jesus die for ALL sins, or just some of them?
2. If you understanding of 1 John 3:15 is correct, why did Jesus contradict this Scripture?

All of your comments about abiding are in error since you've rejected the issue of fellowship, which is the basis of John's first epistle.

1. Yes but the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost has no forgiveness in this life nor the next as Jesus said.

But if a man says he is in the light ad hates his brother he is in darkness and does not abide in the light. Or he does not remain, or continue in the light. To not continue in the Light is not to continue in the Son and in the father.

To be IN the Son is life, To not be IN the Son is not to have life and to abide in death.

2. Jesus does not contradict this scripture. Jesus spoke through John who wrote that a person can not have eternal life abiding in them if they hate. Jesus said similar after John 10 in John 15 where he clearly says if a believer does not abide in him he is cast forth as a branch and withered, no life in them then and they will be cast into the fire. Without Jesus we can do nothing. If a person hates his brother he does not abide in love. If he does not have God's love in his heart then he does not have eternal life (Jesus Christ) in his heart either. If he loves the world he also does not have the love of the Father in him either as John said.

"15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [is this possible for a believer to love the world and sin this way? Yes. Demas loved the world and went away from God, 2 Timothy 4:10 KJV]16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."( 1 John 2:15-17 KJV)

What Jesus said does not contradict scripture.

You cannot put one scripture against another and choose one over the other. I harmonize all the text, but you seem to say according to your doctrine) that the text I show contradict Jesus. No, they contradict your understanding of the text, not scripture.

And no fellowship in Johns context is to be IN the Son and the Father and to be in Christ is eternal life. This fellowship is to be in or out of eternal life.

Only those who abide in Christ can be a sharer and partner and in participation with the Son and the Father. Those who are lost are not in fellowship with the Son or the father. If a believer walks in darkness he lies and is not in the light or fellowship with the Son and the father but in darkness and lost and he does not have eternal life abiding in him. And according to John when he sinneth, he has not seen or known the Son or the Father ( in that darkness and flesh) God only knows those who are in Him spiritually and abide.

What is so wrong about exhorting believers for the need to abide (continue, remain and dwell) in Christ ? It is not a work of our flesh to work our way to God, no it is living and abiding in the life in Christ through faith that is if we continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel. Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. We overcome the world by this faith and have victory by this faith.

FreeGrace2 · May 3, 2018

I asked:
"OK, explain to me what "saving faith" means to you."

EmSw said:
I did not say 'understand' EVERY WORD that Jesus spoke in order to be saved. I said faith is an internal acknowledge of the truth. Can a person be saved without acknowledging the truth?

Why continue to dodge? This isn't anywhere near a definition of saving faith.

To do that, one must define what truth must be acknowedged in order to be saved.

It seems you're quite unwilling to do that.

I've told you what reflects my understanding of saving faith.

Still not wanting to explain yourself.

You have quoted what Jesus said to a rich man many times about how to "enter life", so I guess that means "saving faith" is keeping the commandments. But I just wanted to e sure that's how you define what saving faith is.

If not, please advise.

To keep His commandments, one must humble themselves, submit themselves to God, and obey what He said. Those with pride in themselves won't even attempt to keep them, nor are they able. In fact, they will deny these words of Jesus.

OK, let's go with this, for staters.

1. How many commandments?
2. How often?
3. What if one commandments is broken? Is that a deal breaker?

Only those who trust Him will obey and keep His commandments. Jesus didn't rebuke the rich man when he said he kept the commandments.

Correct. No need for rebuke. But what Jesus did was show that the man had violated the first and greatest commandment. Which is why he left sad.

As I said earlier, no one is good but God, refers to the rich man calling Jesus 'Good Teacher', not about keeping His commandments.

How do you or anyone else know that Jesus was more than mere human, but that He was the Son of God, and Deity? You don't. He obviously thought he could be good enough to enter heaven by his own efforts at being good.

The 'lost sheep of the house of Israel' are His sheep. And it is these He came to seek and save.

Does this mean that only Jews can be saved then?

No one needs salvation unless he actually sins. There is no condemnation for the sinless.

How does Jesus provide salvation? Be specific, please.

I will add more as time allows. It sure was easy finding these passages; I wonder why you have such a hard time finding them.

Your dishonesty is really amazing.

FreeGrace2 · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Please go back to ch 1, where the word "fellowship" is mentioned only 4 times! That's the basis for the book. Therefore, to "abide in Christ" is about fellowship.

LoveofTruth said:
I quoted from the same book chapter 2 this

And you keep ignoring the basis for the whole book, which is found in ch 1. Fellowship.

FreeGrace2 · May 3, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I already showed you that eternal life is Jesus Christ in them. If they abide in him they abide in eternal life if they abide not they are cast forth as a branch and withered and cast into the fire. In 1 John also he speaks of this abiding in the word and adds the condition for the promise of eternal life and says "if" they abide and the word remains in them and continue in the Son they have the promise of eternal life ( 1 John 2:24,25 KJV).

Why do you continue to disagree with Jesus in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

There's NO MENTION of having to continue to abide, or anything else, for that matter.

But go ahead and push your agenda, but it's anti-biblical.

So eternal life is Jesus Christ and we appropriate this life to us by faith and if we continue in the faith. If we do we shall never perish and as we abide with Christ we continue in the Son and the father.

Directly conflicting with what Jesus said about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28.

Yes there is and I have shown many. There are also many verses that show a person can fall away from salvation and end up in the lake of fire.

Why haven't you shared any of them?

The word "reap" simply means to collect or to harvest.

That's basically what I said. It is what is earned from work.

And yes Jesus died for all sin. But if you are a murderer and have your brother as long as you are in that hatred you can not say you are in eternal life or eternal life is in you. You lie if you say you are in the light and walk in darkness. To hate your brother shows you are lost in darkness.

"9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now."(1 John 2:9 KJV)

So then, even though you agree that Jesus died for all sins, there are certain sins that will cause Jesus to take away your eternal life if you commit them.

Is that really your view? It sure seems so.

LoveofTruth · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Please go back to ch 1, where the word "fellowship" is mentioned only 4 times! That's the basis for the book. Therefore, to "abide in Christ" is about fellowship.

And you keep ignoring the basis for the whole book, which is found in ch 1. Fellowship.

you keep misunderstanding what this "fellowship" is.

John connects fellowship with continuing in the Son and the father. In the light of salvation in Christ only is fellowship. If we are out of the light of Christ in salvation we are out of fellowship also

There is no fellowship with darkness

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

and

"4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him...9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.")1 John 2:4,9 KJV)[Jesus Christ is the truth and eternal life, they don't have him in them if they keepeth not his commandments. I am not speaking about the Mosaic law or Moses commands here]

and again this verse, showing that eternal life can abide (remain or continue) in a person or not abide (remain or continue) in them.

"5 Whosoever [believers or non believers] hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."(1 John 3:15 KJV)

How many say they know God and then walk in darkness and lie and do not the truth. This has to do with eternal life and if they do not let the word abide in them they have no promise of eternal life 1 John 2:24,25 KJV.

Someone who lies and does not the truth is not in salvation or the light of Christ. They are in danger and cannot say they have seen God or known him as John said in 1 John 3:6.

Unless you are saying that when believer wilfully lies and does not the truth he is still in the light of Christ and salvation? this contradicts Johns words.

and we read

Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

FreeGrace2 · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
2 questions for you, based on your comments here:
1. Did Jesus die for ALL sins, or just some of them?
2. If you understanding of 1 John 3:15 is correct, why did Jesus contradict this Scripture?

All of your comments about abiding are in error since you've rejected the issue of fellowship, which is the basis of John's first epistle.

LoveofTruth said:
1. Yes but the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost has no forgiveness in this life nor the next as Jesus said.

Please review where that is found. It can't even be committed today. That particular sin was seeing the miracles of Jesus with your own eyes and attributing those miracles to the devil. So, unless you've somehow slipped way back in time and actually saw Jesus performing miracles but attributing them to the devil, you CAN'T commit that sin.

But if a man says he is in the light ad hates his brother he is in darkness and does not abide in the light. Or he does not remain, or continue in the light. To not continue in the Light is not to continue in the Son and in the father.

I stand by my statements about fellowship, which it seems you know nothing about.

2. Jesus does not contradict this scripture.

That is correct. But your claims has Him contradicting Scripture. How can you not see this?

What Jesus said does not contradict scripture.

Again, correct. But what you post has Jesus contradicting Scripoture.

You cannot put one scripture against another and choose one over the other.

I haven't. But WHY do you do that?

John 10:28 has no conditions for recipients to meet in order to not perish. But you've got a list of conditions for recipients to meet in order to not perish.

How come you don't see this?

I harmonize all the text, but you seem to say according to your doctrine) that the text I show contradict Jesus.

First, instead of harmonizing texts, your view contradicts many texts, by your misunderstanding of them.

Second, what I've shown is WHY your understanding of the texts you share is in error.

No, they contradict your understanding of the text, not scripture.

You've shown no such thing.

And no fellowship in Johns context is to be IN the Son and the Father and to be in Christ is eternal life. This fellowship is to be in or out of eternal life.

This is a good example of your misunderstanding of Scripture.

Only those who abide in Christ can be a sharer and partner and in participation with the Son and the Father. Those who are lost are not in fellowship with the Son or the father. If a believer walks in darkness he lies and is not in the light or fellowship with the Son and the father but in darkness and lost and he does not have eternal life abiding in him. And according to John when he sinneth, he has not seen or known the Son or the Father ( in that darkness and flesh) God only knows those who are in Him spiritually and abide.

How come you don't see how this contradicts what Jesus said? He never added "and must continue to abide in Me" in John 10:28?

What is so wrong about exhorting believers for the need to abide (continue, remain and dwell) in Christ ?

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with exhorting believers to continue/remain in Christ. But it's NOT for avoiding perishing, as you falsely claim. It's for fellowship, in which the believer will be able to bear fruit, the subject of John 15.

Question for you, from these verses:
Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw what the grace of God had done, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.

Acts 14:22 - strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

Why aren't believers WARNED about the dire consequences of hell for those who don't remain true to the Lord/faith?

These 2 verses are PERFECT places to insert such a warning, if it were true.

Instead, we only find believers being ENCOURAGED to remain true. No warnings at all.

Doesn't this stike you as a bit odd that there isn't any warning of loss of salvation here, given your view?

FreeGrace2 · May 3, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
you keep misunderstanding what this "fellowship" is.

It is your view of fellowship that leads to having to accept that what Jesus said in John 10:28 is FALSE.

John connects fellowship with continuing in the Son and the father. In the light of salvation in Christ only is fellowship.

Couldn't be more wrong.

Paul commands believers to:
1. be filled with the Spirit - Eph 5:18
2. walk by means of the Spirit - Gal 5:16
3. STOP grieving the Spirit - Eph 4:30
4. STOP quenching the Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

Why can't you see the issue of fellowship here? That #1-2 are about being IN fellowship, and #3-4 are about being OUT OF fellowship?

Can a believer bear fruit if they ARE grieving/quenching the Spirit? Of course not.

Will a believer not bear fruit if they ARE filled with and walking by means of the Spirit? Of course not. They WILL bear fruit.

But your comments clearly show that you do not know anything about what fellowship is.

Consider the parent-child relationship. Is there ALWAYS fellowship between them? Of course not.

Consider the marriage relationship. is there ALWAYS fellowship between them? Again, of course not.

The Bible uses both examples in a spiritual sense. But your view has being "out of fellowship" as losing salvation, which would end the relationship.

But I've just showed that neither relationship is ended when the parties are out of fellowship.

There is no fellowship with darkness

Correct. That's why the Bible says our prayers are not heard when we are out of fellowship (living in sin).

LoveofTruth · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you continue to disagree with Jesus in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

I don't disagree as we abide in Christ through faith we shall never perish. Only those in him continue in the faith.

FreeGrace2 said:
There's NO MENTION of having to continue to abide, or anything else, for that matter.

Yes, Jesus does mention this in many places even in the same book of John over and over. But you are blind to it for some reason

In Chapter 6 Jesus said

"67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"(John 6:67 KJV)

Showing that they had that option to go away also. He did not say you cannot go away I am forcing you to stay and you can never perish here.

In Chapter 11 right after chapter 10 Jesus said

"26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"(John 11:26 KJV)

Showing that a person must believe. But if they harden their heart and have an evil heart of unbelief they can depart from the living God ( Hebrews 3;12 KJV)

In Chapter 15 we read

"4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you....10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love...14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. "(John 15:4-7,10,14 KJV)

In John 8 we read

John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

If is a conditional word and they had to continue or else.

In John 12 we read,

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."

But if a person says they are in the light and walk in darkness they do not believe and are not abiding in Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
So then, even though you agree that Jesus died for all sins, there are certain sins that will cause Jesus to take away your eternal life if you commit them.

Is that really your view? It sure seems so.

your answer clear to the unbiased reader

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-10 KJV)

and

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"( Hebrews 3:26-29 KJV)

and

"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."(1 Cor 6:9,10 KJV)

and

"12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."(Hebrews 3:12-15, 4:1 KJV)

and

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."( 1 John 3;15 KJV)

LoveofTruth · May 3, 2018

I said

"And no fellowship in Johns context is to be IN the Son and the Father and to be in Christ is eternal life. This fellowship is to be in or out of eternal life."

FreeGrace2 said:
This is a good example of your misunderstanding of Scripture.

You are wrong here I showed verses and you seem to either not understand them or ignore them. i showed that a believer can say he is in the light and then walk in darkness and not abide in Christ and so no longer have eternal life in him 1 John 3:15 and 1 John 1 and 2 speak of this

i specifically have been showing how Judas was called a sheep and apostle and how Jesus called HIS twelve (Judas included) to him showing that they were all HIS not the devils and how they all were given power over the enemy and so had their names written in heaven and then Judas fell by transgression and was blotted out of the book and not written with the righteous and was lost in the end and went to his own place. But you seem to ignore all this.

I also gave a good section of scripture here that shows a person must let the word of Christ abide in them to have the promise of eternal life. IF they remain. There is a condition

"24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."( 1 John 2:24 KJV)

This directly corrects your statement about what I said. It shows clearly a need for abiding and there is a condition to continuing in the Son and in the father, if this is done they shall have the promise of eternal life. if not there is no promise of eternal life.

If a man is not IN the Son he is lost. In him is life and only as we abide in Christ are we saved. if we abide not we are lost and in darkness. Scripture is very clear about these things.

What other way is 1 John 2:24,25 understood? It is clear. And 1 John 3:15 shows that eternal life can either be in a person or not remain in them. That is because eternal life is Jesus Christ. Either he remains in us through faith or leaves through unbelief.Christ dwells (continues, abides remains ) in our heart by faith. If we believe not and lose faith we are not in the eternal life.

and I showed you John 15 and other places as well.

I could also speak of the angels that sinned and how God created the lake of fire for them after they sinned. How they once abode in the truth and so were in the life and they are eternal beings and will now suffer eternally in the lake of fire. This shows clearly that God did not spare the angels that sinned. And this shows that an eternal being can be lost forever in the lake of fire.

I could speak of Adam and Eve who had life and eternal life until they died spiritually and then had to be born again.

i could speak of all infants that come into the world and who are saved by the grace of Christ until they have sin revive and they die spiritually then they need to be born again. And how they are by nature children of wrath but God winks in times of ignorance and allows the infants to come to him and be blessed and how their angels do always behold the father and of such is the kingdom of God etc etc etc. Showing that all we like sheep have gone astray and that they were also once sheep defeating the OSAS doctrine. How they were all saved once then they died and needed to be born again. How this child salvation shatters the heresy of Calvinism.

i could show many many verse about falling from salvation and losing the life and falling from grace etc. But this post here is focusing on Judas. i f i go to much into all the other issues we will lose sight of the strong case of Judas being a sheep and sent to the lost sheep and losing his salvation he had.

LoveofTruth · May 3, 2018

[QUOTE="FreeGrace2, post: 72623439, member: 319176"
The Bible uses both examples in a spiritual sense. But your view has being "out of fellowship" as losing salvation, which would end the relationship.

But I've just showed that neither relationship is ended when the parties are out of fellowship.

Correct. That's why the Bible says our prayers are not heard when we are out of fellowship (living in sin).[/QUOTE]
To know God and His Son Jesus Christ is eternal life. This knowingh is our communion with the father and the Son and this communion is our sharing with them and partnership with them, and participation with them, this is the word fellowship. If we are in darkness and not in the light we do not know God as John said

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So, if a person is in the unbelief and hardness of heart in sin, he cannot say he has seen God or knows God or abides ( remains, continues or dwells with God). And so he does not have eternal life in that condition. He is also not in fellowship or knowing God or sharing with him and participating or partnering with him in any way. He is lost in that state as the prodigal son was dead and lost when out of the fathers house and alive again and found when he came to the father . If a man does not do righteousness in faith and instead does unrighteousness in darkness as he is in this condition does not abide or remain in the love of God and so DOES NOT KNOW GOD

"10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."( 1 john 3:10 KJV)

Just also as Judas was found and a sheep sent to the LOST sheep and then he fell by transgression and betrayed the belief and trust he once had. He was entrusted with gifts also and power over all the enemy.

EmSw · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I asked:
"OK, explain to me what "saving faith" means to you."

Why continue to dodge? This isn't anywhere near a definition of saving faith.

So how is not acknowledging truth from the heart going to save anyone? Isn't it from the heart that one believes?

FreeGrace2 said:
To do that, one must define what truth must be acknowedged in order to be saved.

It seems you're quite unwilling to do that.

What truth is to be acknowledged? Really?

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 6
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

I define truth as Jesus Himself. How about you?

Here's what Peter acknowledged - that Jesus had the words of eternal life, and that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. No acknowledgement of the cross, His death, nor of His blood is mentioned.

FreeGrace2 said:
Still not wanting to explain yourself.

You have quoted what Jesus said to a rich man many times about how to "enter life", so I guess that means "saving faith" is keeping the commandments. But I just wanted to e sure that's how you define what saving faith is.

If not, please advise.

Acknowledging the truth of these words is saving faith. You do not acknowledge, nor have faith in these words to enter life.

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, let's go with this, for staters.

1. How many commandments?
2. How often?
3. What if one commandments is broken? Is that a deal breaker?

1. Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, and not just some of them.

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

2. As often as you desire to live in Him and obey His truth

3. No, it's not a deal breaker. If we repent we will receive forgiveness.

FreeGrace2 said:
Correct. No need for rebuke. But what Jesus did was show that the man had violated the first and greatest commandment. Which is why he left sad.

Jesus didn't tell the rich man he was wrong; in fact, you are the accuser.

Come on, he left sad because Jesus said to sell all that he had and give to the poor.

FreeGrace2 said:
How do you or anyone else know that Jesus was more than mere human, but that He was the Son of God, and Deity? You don't. He obviously thought he could be good enough to enter heaven by his own efforts at being good.

Here is where your faith is lacking. If you don't know Jesus was more than a mere human, your faith in Him is superficial.

Actually, the man answered Jesus' question to him. Let's look at Luke 10 to see what transpired.

25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

As we see, eternal life was received in the OT. When asked how to inherit eternal life, Jesus asked him, 'what is written in the law?'. So by Jesus' words, we do know eternal life was in the law.

When asked, the man said, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.'

We see that loving God with all our soul (life) and our neighbor as ourself, we will inherit eternal life. Have you ever noticed that Jesus said, 'you have answered rightly'? This was the right answer, but you won't hear many say that is the right answer today. I think you are in this group of doubters.

FreeGrace2 said:
Does this mean that only Jews can be saved then?

This means Jesus came to seek and save those that are lost. Take it as you will.

FreeGrace2 said:
How does Jesus provide salvation? Be specific, please.

Your dishonesty is really amazing.

I will answer your question later; for now, it's back to work. Have a first and second commandment day.

FreeGrace2 · May 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why do you continue to disagree with Jesus in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

LoveofTruth said:
I don't disagree as we abide in Christ through faith we shall never perish. Only those in him continue in the faith.

Jesus DIDN'T include any conditions in John 10:28 for recipients of eternal life. You keep doing so. Explain yourself.

Yes, Jesus does mention this in many places even in the same book of John over and over. But you are blind to it for some reason

Not blind. There is nothing to see. Including NO CONDITIONS in John 10:28, which you keep wanting to add.

There's no reason to respond to the rest of your very long and colorful post.

Our argument STOPS at John 10:28 in which you refuse to acknowledge that there are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to never perish.

FreeGrace2 · May 3, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I could also speak of the angels that sinned and how God created the lake of fire for them after they sinned.

And we all know this isn't relevant at all. There is no parallel between humanity and angels. To think so is to error.

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

Christ builds His church from within us

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

White Horse Rider

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Christ builds His church from within us

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

White Horse Rider

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

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