The Sabbath-day Law Can Be Violated

Doveaman said:

Okay.

If by "God's Law" you are referring to the Ten Commandments, then yes the priests were in fact violating the 4th commandment of "God's Law" by desecrating the Sabbath day.
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Jesus was not merely using the pharisees' definition of violation, He was using the Law's definition of violation:

“Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?” – (Matt 12:5)

The desecration was not defined by the pharisees, it was defined by what was read in the Law.

Jesus was reminding the pharisees of what the Law had said about desecrating the Sabbath day.

According to the Law, the Sabbath day was desecrated because the 4th commandment of the Law was violated.

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It's like you didn't read what I wrote. Let me attempt one more time.

Why then did Jesus refer to "the law" ["shows them from scripture", "have ye not read"; notice, given in the negative]? To show the Pharisees that their definition of "violation" ["not lawful" vs 2] was not actually "violation" ["guiltless" vs 7] since their traditions were negating the scriptures, commandments of God, and the disciples were doing nothing against scripture, though the Pharisees accused based upon their tradition, saying of men. Jesus did not go to "the law" to show that the Sabbath could be violated by His people, but went to the "it is written" to demonstrate the Pharisees error in judgment about what a "violation" on Sabbath was. The disciples were innocent, guiltless, and the Pharisees were the wrongfully informed accusers, and Jesus showed them this from the scripture. Their standard of judgment/accusation was not founded upon thus saith the Lord.

I have cited evidence, from vs 2 that Jesus was doing this.

What evidence did you cite? vs 5. But vs 5 is contextually linked to vs 2. You assumed apriori about vs 5 saying what you want it to say. I showed by evidence in vs 2 your apriori was wrong, even as the Pharisees apriori about sabbath violation was in error - both of you are outside of the it is written.

Soyeong said:

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23) and the Mosaic Law is how the people knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to the Law is an integral part of the Gospel message that Jesus taught. Jesus was sinless, so he lived in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, which means that he taught obedience to it by word and by example, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1). I see no good reason to think that the Law of Christ is something other than what he taught by word and by example and I see nothing that indicates that Jesus went off and taught his own thing in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow. Rather, in John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and his teachings were not his own, but that of that Father, so Jesus taught the same commands that the Father taught to Moses. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to free us from the Law, but to free us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if you believe that, then it should cause you to want to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law (Acts 21:20) and should not cause you to want to return to the Lawlessness that Christ gave himself to redeem you from.

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All of Paul's writings deals with the false teaching of the Judaizers, of which you seem to Advocate. Galatians 3:10 states the Law is a curse, Jesus freed true Christians from the curse. Now in verse 25 of that same chapter it tells that because we have Faith in Jesus Christ, we are no longer under the Law.
In Galatians 5:2-4 states that those who are trying to live under the Law have fallen from the Grace of God and Jesus Christ. There are 100's of other verses in the new Testament that state that we are not under the old Law.

Thedictator said:

All of Paul's writings deals with the false teaching of the Judaizers, of which you seem to Advocate. Galatians 3:10 states the Law is a curse, Jesus freed true Christians from the curse. ...

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Show me a single curse in the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB] please.

The7thColporteur said:

Show me a single curse in the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB] please.

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Indeed many mix up the SHADOWS laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT with those which are ETERNAL LAW OF GOD and give a KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

The7thColporteur said:

Show me a single curse in the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB] please.

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I do not have to because Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit's Spokesman (The Apostle Paul) said the Old Law was a Curse. So I will believe The True Word of God, over man-made false teaching. You may believe what ever you want.

Thedictator said:

I do not have to because Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit's Spokesman (The Apostle Paul) said the Old Law was a Curse. So I will believe The True Word of God, over man-made false teaching. You may believe what ever you want.

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Excuse me but Galatians 3:10 says:


The Ten Commandments were specifically cited, Exodus 20:1-17 KJB. Show me a single curse in them.

The curses are mentioned in the "book of the law" - Deuteronomy 28.

Paul said that the Commandments of God, the Ten, are all promises, and he speaks about the second table specifically in its 'first' commandment:

Is honouring thy Father and Mother now a curse? Is it a "work of the law"? Or is it possible that Galatians 3:10 KJB, says something else in regards justification.

The7thColporteur said:

Show me a single curse in the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB] please.

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and @LoveGodsWord

Lets talk about the New Covenant and why Jesus came.

Sin is not just forgiven, as in a covering over filth, but taken away, completely cleansed!

1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

That means the whole DESIRE to sin is taken out of the way IF you have the gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling you.

The whole doctrine of just forgiven, implies all the sins you continually commit are also forgiven. NO!!! Jude 1:4 "ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." They don't know the mind of Christ at all and don't have the eyes to see what Jesus really did!

That false doctrine came out of the Reformation. But the opposite focus from that perversion of the New Covenant sets our mind always on law and sin, rather than having the mind of Christ. That is where SDAs dwell. And neither are Christian

It is where we set our MIND. Constantly on sin? Or - Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]'>[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith
Gal3:10&11

For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath
Rom 4:14&15

The above cannot refer to what we often term the legalistic law, for that could be faultlessly obeyed. It was faultlessly obeyed by saul the Pharisee(Phil3:6niv) as well as Pharisees who Jesus said did not even know his Father. Therefore,you wouldn't be cursed by them, in respsect of not being able to do everything written regarding them.
Paul, in 2cor ch3 referred to the law engraved on stone(TC) as being the letter that kills/the ministry of death and condemnation. You are cursed if you rely on obeying the TC to to be justified before God, for you cannot attain to the pass mark to be righteous under them, which is 100% perfect obedience/do everything written concerning them. And in this sense, law would bring wrath.

Now I knew that and I've never studied the greek

1stcenturylady said:

and @LoveGodsWord

Lets talk about the New Covenant and why Jesus came.

Sin is not just forgiven, as in a covering over filth, but taken away, completely cleansed!

1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

That means the whole DESIRE to sin is taken out of the way IF you have the gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling you.

The whole doctrine of just forgiven, implies all the sins you continually commit are also forgiven. NO!!! Jude 1:4 "ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." They don't know the mind of Christ at all and don't have the eyes to see what Jesus really did!

...

It is where we set our MIND. Constantly on sin? Or - 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Past sins are taken from us [Romans 3:25 KJB], and placed upon Jesus. That much is truth. Where are the sins then? He took them with Him. He has them. Just as in the type, the sins placed upon the Lamb, taken into the sanctuary. This gives us hope. Then by faith we see the work of the High Priest with those sins.

Yet, the sins committed in the past are still on record in the books [Link] of Heaven, just as in the type recorded in the blood. Not gone, but at the moment only "covered" by the blood [ie "forgiven"] and may be uncovered or unforgiven or placed back upon us [Matthew 18; etc.] in full before the time of blotting out.

Covered now:


Blotted out later [soon]:

The7thColporteur said:

Past sins are taken from us [Romans 3:25 KJB], and placed upon Jesus. That much is truth. Where are the sins then? He took them with Him. He has them. This gives us hope.

Yet, the sins committed in the past are still on record in the books [Link] of Heaven. Not gone, but at the moment only "covered" by the blood [ie "forgiven"] and may be uncovered or unforgiven or placed back upon us [Matthew 18; etc.] in full before the time of blotting out.

Covered now:

Romans 4:7 KJB - Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.​

Blotted out later [soon]:

Acts 3:19 KJB - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;​

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Our past sins are taken away and remembered no more, then we are given the Holy Spirit and no longer sin. I'm really shocked by what you believe. Do you believe that too @LoveGodsWord?

Question: You say you are Protestant. Are you also SDA? If not, what are you? Self taught?

1stcenturylady said:

Our past sins are taken away and thrown into the see of forgetfulness, then we are given the Holy Spirit and no longer sin. I'm really shocked by what you believe. Do you believe that too @LoveGodsWord?

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The sea?


The "waters" cover the "sea" [just as our sins are "covered"], just as the water in the Laver of the Sanctuary [Psalms 77;13 KJB], blood/water. The "sea" is a basin, a bowl filled with something, normally waters [Genesis 1:10,22; Exodus 14:22-23; 1 Kings 7:23-25,39,44; 2 Kings 25:13,16; 1 Chronicles 18:8; 2 Chronicles 4:2-15; Revelation 4:6, 15:2 KJB]

Again, "covered" sin is still present, but under something. Blotted out sins have no need to be "covered" as they are gone altogether.

Forgetfulness deals with the mind/heart. It does not deal with that which is written in the books/blood. Two things, not one. One may refresh the other. A mind can re-write that which was damaged in a book. A book can bring to mind that which was forgotten.

Sins can indeed be unforgiven and placed back upon us before probation closes, Matthew 18 KJB, ec.

The7thColporteur said:

The sea?

Micah 7:19 KJB - He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.​

The "waters" cover the "sea" [just as our sins are "covered"], just as the water in the Laver of the Sanctuary [Psalms 77;13 KJB], blood/water. The "sea" is a basin, a bowl filled with something, normally waters [Genesis 1:10,22; Exodus 14:22-23; 1 Kings 7:23-25,39,44; 2 Kings 25:13,16; 1 Chronicles 18:8; 2 Chronicles 4:2-15; Revelation 4:6, 15:2 KJB]

Isaiah 11:9 KJB - They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
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Again, "covered" sin is still present, but under something. Blotted out sins have no need to be "covered" as they are gone altogether.

Forgetfulness deals with the mind/heart. It does not deal with that which is written in the books/blood. Two things. one may refresh the other. A mind can re-write that which was damaged in a a book. A book can bring to mind that which was forgotten.

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He says he will remember them no more. Where in the world did you get the idea they can be dredged back up???

1stcenturylady said:

He says he will remember them no more. Where in the world did you get the idea they can be dredged back up???

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Remember deals with the mind. Books deal with that which is written. Again two things.

At the bottom of the sea they are still there.

Think of a heavy weight of sin thrown into the sea. Did it go away, or is it still down there?

If the heavy weight of sin is eraditcated then it is no longer down there.

PS. I cited Matthew 18 KJB, etc.

The7thColporteur said:

Remember deals with the mind. Books deal with that which is written. Again two things.

At the bottom of the sea they are still there.

Think of a heavy weight of sin thrown into the sea. Did it go away, or is it still down there?

If the heavy weight of sin is eraditcated then it is no longer down there.

PS. I cited Matthew 18 KJB, etc.

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I changed what I wrote to remember no more.

You said, "If the heavy weight of sin is eradicated then it is no longer down there."

Yes, that is what take away means.

1stcenturylady said:

I changed what I wrote to remember no more.

You said, "If the heavy weight of sin is eradicated then it is no longer down there."

Yes, that is what take away means.

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Again, remember deals with the mind.

Sins aren't eraditcated ["blotted out"] yet, as I cited to you from Acts, and can cite other places.

Take away [past sins], means someone else has them. Gone from you [for now], with someone else until they are dealt with.

The7thColporteur said:

Again, remember deals with the mind.

Sins aren't eraditcated ["blotted out"] yet, as I cited to you from Acts, and can cite other places.

Take away [past sins], means someone else has them. Gone from you [for now], with someone else until they are dealt with.

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Read Acts 3 again, but this time in context. He is preaching to the unsaved Jews to accept Christ. In Christ they are remembered no more, and the power of the Holy Spirit is given to you to sin no more.

Doveaman said:

Your pastor does not desecrate the Sabbath day by preaching on the Sabbath day,

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True - neither does he build houses, farm or go shopping on the Sabbath.

And neither did the priests of Christ's day.

And neither did the priests at the foot of Mt. Sinai.

You are simply in denial of the relevant point in Matt 12 which is that work is done by those involved in the Gospel - in preaching in teaching in feeding the sheep in all the activities of priests in the OT and pastors in the new testament.

Yet none of that would be "violation of the Sabbath" for anyone else to do either.

The priest were doing what was approved by the law,

The only sense in which it could be seen as "not approved" is that it is their vocation.. their job to worship God and lead out in the worship of God.

But that did not make "Worship of God" a form of "Sabbath breaking"

The point remains.

Its that simple

1stcenturylady said:

Read Acts 3 again, but this time in context. He is preaching to the unsaved Jews to accept Christ. In Christ they are remembered no more, and the power of the Holy Spirit is given to you to sin no more.

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Context:


It deals with the world, the Jews first ... and also the Gentiles.

The Sanctuary, demonstrates how God deals with Sin.

Your sins, when confessed over the Lamb, are "taken" from you, and placed upon Him. The sins are merely transferred, not gone. You are "forgiven", thus "covered" by the "blood". Since they are "covered" they are not gone, but underneath the covering. The repentant was free from their debt for now. They could walk in the newness of Life, not in sin.

Where are the sins? Upon the Lamb. The sacrifice is then taken by the priest into the Sanctuary, and some of the blood [of which now carries the sins, as a record] sprinkled upon the veil before the Most Holy Place and kept there as record, until the ending of the Day of Atonement. Read Leviticus 16 & 23.

All the people of God, who had been repentant and forgiven were to come on the day of atonement and had at least 4 duties in that "day", and they were to do those things in faith in God, and his minister, the Highpriest who was to go in before God bearing the peoples names upon his heart/chest. Any who were found to have continued in their sin, rather than living the repenatant life, had their sins placed back upon them, and they were forever cut off. Yet if found in true repentance, the sins on record were removed and placed upon the scapegoat/satan, and forever gone [type to antitype].

If you think that you cannot presently sin and that all your old sins are blotted out, you are in serious and eternal danger. Read Matthew 18.


Furthermore, the possibility exists for sinning [I did/do not say anyone had/has to]:

The7thColporteur said:

Context:

Act 3:18 KJB - But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Act 3:19 KJB - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 3:20 KJB - And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Act 3:21 KJB - Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 3:25 KJB - Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.​

Acts 3:26 KJB - Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
​

It deals with the world, the Jews first ... and also the Gentiles.

The Sanctuary, demonstrates how God deals with Sin.

Your sins, when confessed over the Lamb, are "taken" from you, and placed upon Him. The sins are merely transferred, not gone. You are "forgiven", thus "covered" by the "blood". Since they are "covered" they are not gone, but underneath the covering. The repentant was free from their debt for now. They could walk in the newness of Life, not in sin.

Where are the sins? Upon the Lamb. The sacrifice is then teaken by the priest into the Sanctuary, and some of the blood [of which now carries the sins, as a record] sprinkled upon the veil before the Most Holy Place and kept there as record, until the ending of the Day of Atonement. Read Leviticus 16 & 23.

All the people of God, who had been repentant and forgiven were to come on the day of atonement and had at least 4 duties in that "day", and they were to do those things in faith in God, and his minister, the Highpriest who was to go in before God bearing the peoples names upon his heart/chest. Any who were found to have continued in their sin, rather than living the repenatant life, had their sins placed back upon them, and they were forever cut off.

If you think that you cannot presently sin and that all your old sins are blotted out, you are in serious and eternal danger. Read Matthew 18.

Jeremiah 18:23 KJB - Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay me: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal thus with them in the time of thine anger.​

Furthermore, the possibility exists for sinning [I did/do not say anyone had/has to]:

Matthew 6:12 KJB - And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Luke 11:4 KJB - And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

1 John 1:9 KJB - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

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The time of refreshing is receiving the Holy Spirit. That is not sometime in the future, it is now if you repent from all sin, and turn to Christ. Then you are DEAD TO SIN. That is where your mind should be - in the knowledge you are dead to sin. Dwell on righteousness.

1stcenturylady said:

The time of refreshing is receiving the Holy Spirit. That is not sometime in the future, it is now...

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There is a difference between early [Pentecost] and latter rains [our days, soon to come]. Please notice that Peter spoke in future tense [shall come] after Pentecost was already going on, and the "may be", just before Jesus' second advent.