GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

JLB777

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Now if there is NO scripture that says God's 4th Commandment has been ABOLSIEHD and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a HOLY DAY where is your argument?

My argument is about the way we are to keep the Sabbath.

I have asked repeatedly for scriptures from anyone, including you, that teach us the way, we are to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.


No such scriptures have you presented.


If you believe that Jesus and the Apostles have commanded the Church to gather on the Sabbath to worship Jesus then please present the scripture that teaches this commandment.



JLB
 
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The7thColporteur

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...The way the Sabbath is observed under the law of Moses has been abolished, because we no longer put people to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.. ..
That Law still applies to Christians, it's all the matter of when and how:

Sins of Ignorance [OT] - Numbers 15:22-29 KJB
Sins of Ignorance [NT] - Luke 12:48 KJB

Sins of Presumption [OT] - Numbers 15:30-31 KJB
Sins of Presumption [NT] - Luke 12:47 KJB

God is merciful but also just, and no respecter of persons, and is the same yesterday, to day and forever, having equal balances, just measures and scales - Exodus 20:5-6, 34:6-7; Leviticus 19:15,35-37; Deuteronomy 5:9-10, 16:18-20, 25:15, 32:4; 2 Samuel 14:14; Psalms 102:27; Isaiah 45:21; Malachi 3:6; Acts 10:34, 22:14; Hebrews 1:12, 13:8; Revelation 15:3 KJB

What was the penalty for sabbath breaking in the Old Testament texts? Eternal Death.

Ezekiel 18:4 KJB - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 KJB - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.​

What is the penalty for sabbath breaking in the New Testament texts? Eternal Death.

Romans 6:23 KJB - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 10:29 KJB - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

Sin of presumptuously breaking the Holy 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God in the presence of God - Numbers 15:32-36

Numbers 15:32 KJB - And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

Numbers 15:33 KJB - And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

Numbers 15:34 KJB - And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

Numbers 15:35 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Numbers 15:36 KJB - And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.​

There was also the burning by fire that would be later included for its transgression [1 John 3:4 KJB] - Jeremiah 17:27, 34:22 KJB.

The question them comes at us Seventh-day Adventists, “Are Christians to stone the sabbath breaker?”

After all, did not Jesus say to the scribes and Pharisees, about the woman caught in adultery [whose punishment in the OT texts was also stoning to death - Leviticus 20:10 KJB; Deuteronomy 22:21-24; Ezekiel 16:38-40, 23:47; and also John 8:5 KJB:

John 8:7 KJB - So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.​

This text is absolutely true, but let us not wrest the words beyond that which they plainly state, and see what else Jesus also said and see how they fit perfectly together and without contradiction.

It is written, that there are no contradictions in scripture, the King James Bible, but each text must be compared with all other texts and be found in perfect harmony - John 10:35; Isaiah 8:20, 28:10,13; 1 Corinthians 2:13, 14:33

“... One saying of the Saviour must not be made to destroy another. … {GC88 370.2}...” - The Great Controversy (1888 & 1911), Chapter XX [20], A Great Religious Awakening, 370.2​

Jesus did say, “... He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone ...”, but He does not negate that which He gave previously in the OT texts in the statutes and judgments, for Jesus also said:

Matthew 5:17 KJB - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 KJB - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:19 KJB - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

As it is written again:

Matthew 24:35 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 16:17 KJB - And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Luke 21:33 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

When will the Heaven and Earth pass away? Not until the 2nd and 3rd coming of Christ Jesus - 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 21:1 KJB.

How then can both John 8:7 KJB and Matthew 5:17-19 KJB be in harmony and not in direct contradiction to each other and to other texts?

Simple. In the Condition & Timing; in otherwords, the “... matter of Who, What, Where, When, Why and How ...”

... to be continued ...
 
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The7thColporteur

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...The way the Sabbath is observed under the law of Moses has been abolished, because we no longer put people to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.. ..
That Law still applies to Christians, it's all the matter of when and how: ... continued ...

Let us see from the scripture, the King James Bible, itself. Notice the text of John 8:7 KJB again more closely and examine carefully and prayerfully, for there is a “condition” therein for “stoning” the transgressor.

John 8:7 KJB - So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.​

Do we see the condition that must be met first? It is to be “without sin”.

Presently, we all on this earth are sinners and have a record of sin, and thus, presently, we are not “without sin” - Psalms 14:3; Jeremiah 2:22; Romans 3:9-10,12,23, 5:12 KJB.

Yet, is there a time coming when the saints of God will be “without sin”? Oh, yes … when Christ Jesus makes the final atonement in the Most Holy Place and blots out all the record of the sins of the saints. They will then be “without sin” on earth, and shortly thereafter, taken to heaven, where no sin shall enter.

Leviticus 16:30 KJB - For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Leviticus 16:33 KJB - And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.

Leviticus 16:34 KJB - And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Psalms 51:1 KJB - To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Psalms 51:9 KJB - Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

Acts 3:19 KJB - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;​

See also:

The Bible Echo, November 25, 1895, The Love of God, par. 5

The Review and Herald, August 29, 1893, The Remnant Church Not Babylon, par. 3

The Signs of the Times, April 10, 1893, Overcome as Christ Overcame, par. 4​

The saints at the blotting out of sin will be “without sin”, and then they must enter the New Jerusalem above [Galatians 4:26 KJB], which is the “camp of the saints” [Revelation 20:9 KJB, see also Numbers 15:33-35 KJB], and there enter into the Judgment, for 1,000 years, wherein they will compare the deeds of the wicked, like sabbath breakers, with the Law of God, the Bible. After the 1,000 years in Heaven, and the comparing of the deeds with the Bible, the saints will agree with the judgments of God already laid down therein. They will “Amen” His judgments and so execute them.

God shall judge all things by His word, the Bible - Ecclesiastes 12:13-14; John 12:48; Jude 1:6 KJB.

Know ye not that we, the saints, shall judge the wicked world? - 1 Corinthians 6:2 KJB

Know ye not that we, the saints, shall judge the wicked angels? - 1 Corinthians 6:3 KJB

When will those “without sin” judge the wicked world and wicked angels? During the 1,000 years, in Heaven - Daniel 7:22,26; Revelation 20:4 KJB.

Once the Judgment in Heaven takes place by those “without sin”, during the 1,000 years, then New Jerusalem will have to come down to earth, wherein all of the wicked will be raised “without the camp” [Numbers 15:35,36 KJB], then the stoning of the sabbath breaker takes place and even the burning by fire, yea, fiery stones fall upon them and destroy them - Psalms 18:12-13; Isaiah 24:22; Luke 17:26-30; Hebrews 10:27; Revelation 20:7-9, 21:8, 22:15 [1 John 2:4] KJB

This statute and punishment for disobedience [Numbers 15:32-36 KJB] was given directly by God [even Jesus] Himself.

- It applies to “the children of Israel”, and all, native born or stranger, within their “camp” [Numbers 15:35,36 KJB], property, “borders”, and/or “gates”, see Exodus 20:10 KJB.

- Jesus Christ is the True Israel [Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Romans 9:6-8; 1 Corinthians 15:44-46; Galatians 6:16; John 16:13; Revelation 3:21 KJB] and His children are his disciples, the 12 tribes of Israel [Hebrews 2:9-13; Isaiah 8:8-20; Matthew 12:46-50, 26:18; Mark 10:24, 14:14; Luke 14:26,27,33, 22:11; John 8:31, 13:33,35, 15:8, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5 KJB]​

- Take notice, that it was during the time “in the wilderness” that they found “a man” that “gathered sticks upon the sabbath day”.​

- The Christians, having come out of the bondage of the sins of Egypt [wordliness/carnality], are presently going through “the wilderness” and are upon the borders of the Heavenly Canaan and are to keep the sabbath. Thus the sabbath breakers are to found here during this time and will be judged by that which is written in the time to come, when the “camp of the saints” comes down to earth.

- Christians are to keep the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God holy in the New and Everlasting Covenant, as per Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16; Isaiah 56:2-7; Acts 4:24, 13:44, 14:15, 15:19, 17:30; Revelation 14:6-7, 12:17, 22:14 KJB, etc.

- It was the solemn duty of the whole faithful congregation to remove the person from the “camp” and place them “without” [outside] the “camp”.

- It was then the more solemn duty of the whole faithful congregation, by the direction of God's judgment, to “stone” that presumptuous law-breaker “with stones”, and “put to death”, “cut off”, so that the “iniquity shall be upon” the person forever.

- Those who transgress the Sabbath commandment [Exodus 20:8-11 KJB], actually trample upon Jesus Christ Himself. For it was He who entered into the rest upon the Sabbath, paying the price to redeem fallen man, making it Holy again [the first was at Creation; Genesis 2:1-3 KJB], therefore take off thy shoes from off thy feet, for it is Holy time, made thus by the blood of the Son of God.

- Zechariah 14:12 KJB - And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Now let us see the execution of judgment by the saints, in their “amen” of God's judgments, as it is written:

Psalms 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

Psalms 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.

Psalms 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

Psalms 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

Psalms 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

Psalms 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;

Psalms 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;

Psalms 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.​

See also -


The Great Controversy (1888), Chapter XLI [41], Desolation of the Earth, 660.3-661.2

The Great Controversy (1911), Chapter 41, Desolation of the Earth, 660.4-661.2

The Southern Watchman, March 14, 1905, The Restoration Of Eden, par. 10-13

The Review and Herald (1850), The Present Truth, November 1, 1850 Dear Brethren and Sisters, par. 5

A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G White (1851), 33.2

Early Writings (1882), Experience and Views, The Last Plagues and the Judgment, 52.2

Manuscripts Releases, Volume 12 [Nos. 921-999] (1990), MR No. 973 Need for Unity Among Spiritual Shepherds, 248.2-248.3

Early Writings (1882), Spiritual Gifts Volume 1, 290.3

The Story of Redemption (1947), Chapter 63, The Millennium, 416.3​
 
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The7thColporteur

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[Walter Martin and William Johnsson]

The dialogue in question starts about 1 hour 18 minutes into the discussion
Now that [the now deceased] "Walter Martin" is brought up, let me show a few errors he made about what he stated, on tv, [John Ankerberg "show"], in regards Hebrews 9:12, in the Koine Greek:

[John Ankerberg Show, with Walter Martin and William Johnsson [Review and Herald], time index 00:33:16-00:33:57] -

"... [George E. Canon reading Heb. 9:12 GNT into English] that Jesus Christ entered once into the holiest of all with his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption for us. ...", and I [Walter Martin] asked the question, and 'Canon' did too, "Did this [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place, as [O.R.L.] Crosier said, as Mrs. [Ellen G.] White said, as the early Adventists taught? Did it take place in [AD] 1844, or did it take place at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]?" [Walter Martin continues] The [Koine] Greek text says, at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]. Once into the holiest of all - the Most Holy Place! ..."​

Text:

Hebrews 9:12 KJB - Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:12 GNT TR - ουδε δι αιματος τραγων και μοσχων δια δε του ιδιου αιματος εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενος​

There is not a single extant mss, codici or papyrii, [etc] written in Koine Greek [or any language] that reads "αγια αγιων" [the Most Holy Place, see Hebrews 9:3 KJB, GNT TR] here in Hebrews 9:12, but plainly reads in all known extant mss, etc in any language, "τα αγια" [the sanctuary, ie first apartment, the holy place].

Latin [Jerome's Vulgate]: "in sancta",
Wycliffe: "the holy",
German Luther Bibel 1545: "das Heilige",
Stephanus 1550: "τα αγια",
Scrivener's 1894: "τα αγια",
Westcott's and Hort's 1881: "τα αγια".
UBS 5th: "τὰ ἅγια",
Novum Testamentum Graece 28th [Eberhard Nestle's / Kurt Aland's, etc]: "τὰ ἅγια"
without
a single footnote in either 'scholars' work indicating any deviation​

Consider:

Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Hebrews 8:2 GNT TR - των αγιων λειτουργος και της σκηνης της αληθινης ην επηξεν ο κυριος και ουκ ανθρωπος

Hebrews 9:1 KJB - Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:1 GNT TR - ειχεν μεν ουν και η πρωτη δικαιωματα λατρειας το τε αγιον κοσμικον

Hebrews 9:2 KJB - For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:2 GNT TR - σκηνη γαρ κατεσκευασθη η πρωτη εν η η τε λυχνια και η τραπεζα και η προθεσις των αρτων ητις λεγεται αγια

Hebrews 9:3 KJB - And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

Hebrews 9:3 GNT TR - μετα δε το δευτερον καταπετασμα σκηνη η λεγομενη αγια αγιων

Hebrews 9:7 KJB - But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Hebrews 9:7 GNT TR - εις δε την δευτεραν απαξ του ενιαυτου μονος ο αρχιερευς ου χωρις αιματος ο προσφερει υπερ εαυτου και των του λαου αγνοηματων

Hebrews 9:8 KJB - The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Hebrews 9:8 GNT TR - τουτο δηλουντος του πνευματος του αγιου μηπω πεφανερωσθαι την των αγιων οδον ετι της πρωτης σκηνης εχουσης στασιν

Hebrews 13:11 KJB - For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

Hebrews 13:11 GNT TR - ων γαρ εισφερεται ζωων το αιμα περι αμαρτιας εις τα αγια δια του αρχιερεως τουτων τα σωματα κατακαιεται εξω της παρεμβολης

Revelation 15:5 KJB - And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Revelation 15:5 GNT TR - και μετα ταυτα ειδον και ιδου ηνοιγη ο ναος της σκηνης του μαρτυριου εν τω ουρανω​

Seventh-day Adventists, including O.R.L. Crosier [Day Star Extra, February 7th, 1846, you may read in full here - The Sanctuary, Table of Contents -- Ellen G. White Writings ], and especially sister Ellen G. White, do/did not teach, and have never taught, that Hebrews 9:12 happened in AD 1844.

The event in Hebrews 9:12, took place in AD 31, at Christ's Ascension from the Mount of Olives, which parallels Psalms 24:1-10, 133:1-3; Revelation 5:5,6, etc. We do however teach, that the text of Daniel 7:13, and the events therein, took place in AD 1844, based upon the ending of the 2,300 prophecy of Daniel 8:13,14,26, 9:24-27, 11:31-33,40, 12:7-13; Revelation 9:13-15; 10:1-11, etc.

The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911, page 421 -

"... Thither the faith of Christ's disciples followed him as he ascended from their sight. Here their hopes centered, “which hope we have,” said Paul, “as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever.” “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” [Hebrews 6:19, 20; 9:12.]

For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record. As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended. At that time, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, our High Priest entered the most holy, to perform the last division of his solemn work,—to cleanse the sanctuary. ..." - The Great Controversy, Page 421 -- Ellen G. White Writings

The Desire of Ages, page 166; 1898 -

"... The sacrificial service that had pointed to Christ passed away; but the eyes of men were turned to the true sacrifice for the sins of the world. The earthly priesthood ceased; but we look to Jesus, the minister of the new covenant, and “to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” “The way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: ... but Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, ... by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” Hebrews 12:24; 9:8-12. ..." - The Desire of Ages, Page 166 -- Ellen G. White Writings

Walter Martin [and assoc., including John Ankerberg] was/and still are dead wrong, on both counts, and even the (so-called) LXX in Exodus 26:33 disagrees with him [them].

Exodus 26:33 KJB - And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

Exodus 26:33 (so-called) LXX - καὶ θήσεις τὸ καταπέτασμα ἐπὶ τοὺς στύλους καὶ εἰσοίσεις ἐκεῖ ἐσώτερον τοῦ καταπετάσματος τὴν κιβωτὸν τοῦ μαρτυρίου· καὶ διοριεῖ τὸ καταπέτασμα ὑμῖν ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων.​

The "holy place" [τοῦ ἁγίου] is separate [by a second "vail" [καταπέτασμα]] from and not the same as the "most holy" [τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων].
 
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Marco70

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There are two resurrections, the first is for a select number:
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Rev20:4&5

When is the second, or general resurrection of the dead?

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.’
John 6:39&40

When is the last day, and general resurrection of the dead? Best to read the following ignoring chapter heading:


Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling-place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death” or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away
Rev20:11-125&21:1-5


The last day Christ referred to is the last day of this present earth.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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My argument is about the way we are to keep the Sabbath.

I have asked repeatedly for scriptures from anyone, including you, that teach us the way, we are to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.

No such scriptures have you presented.

If you believe that Jesus and the Apostles have commanded the Church to gather on the Sabbath to worship Jesus then please present the scripture that teaches this commandment.

JLB

Hello JBL, all your questions have been answered with a lot of scripture in this summary post linked below.

Follow the links in all the posts for detailed scriptures and answers to all your questions here.

You choose not to believe God's WORD. This is between you and God.

If you disagree with the posts and scripture sent you explain why you disagree and respond to all the posts and scriptures in them that disagree with your teaching.

Ingoring God's WORD only shows your in error.

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Now that [the now deceased] "Walter Martin" is brought up, let me show a few errors he made about what he stated, on tv, [John Ankerberg "show"], in regards Hebrews 9:12, in the Koine Greek:

[John Ankerberg Show, with Walter Martin and William Johnsson [Review and Herald], time index 00:33:16-00:33:57] -

"... [George E. Canon reading Heb. 9:12 GNT into English] that Jesus Christ entered once into the holiest of all with his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption for us. ...", and I [Walter Martin] asked the question, and 'Canon' did too, "Did this [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place, as [O.R.L.] Crosier said, as Mrs. [Ellen G.] White said, as the early Adventists taught? Did it take place in [AD] 1844, or did it take place at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]?" [Walter Martin continues] The [Koine] Greek text says, at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]. Once into the holiest of all - the Most Holy Place! ..."​

Text:

Hebrews 9:12 KJB - Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:12 GNT TR - ουδε δι αιματος τραγων και μοσχων δια δε του ιδιου αιματος εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενος​

There is not a single extant mss, codici or papyrii, [etc] written in Koine Greek [or any language] that reads "αγια αγιων" [the Most Holy Place, see Hebrews 9:3 KJB, GNT TR] here in Hebrews 9:12, but plainly reads in all known extant mss, etc in any language, "τα αγια" [the sanctuary, ie first apartment, the holy place].

Latin [Jerome's Vulgate]: "in sancta",
Wycliffe: "the holy",
German Luther Bibel 1545: "das Heilige",
Stephanus 1550: "τα αγια",
Scrivener's 1894: "τα αγια",
Westcott's and Hort's 1881: "τα αγια".
UBS 5th: "τὰ ἅγια",
Novum Testamentum Graece 28th [Eberhard Nestle's / Kurt Aland's, etc]: "τὰ ἅγια"
without
a single footnote in either 'scholars' work indicating any deviation​

Consider:

Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Hebrews 8:2 GNT TR - των αγιων λειτουργος και της σκηνης της αληθινης ην επηξεν ο κυριος και ουκ ανθρωπος

Hebrews 9:1 KJB - Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:1 GNT TR - ειχεν μεν ουν και η πρωτη δικαιωματα λατρειας το τε αγιον κοσμικον

Hebrews 9:2 KJB - For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:2 GNT TR - σκηνη γαρ κατεσκευασθη η πρωτη εν η η τε λυχνια και η τραπεζα και η προθεσις των αρτων ητις λεγεται αγια

Hebrews 9:3 KJB - And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

Hebrews 9:3 GNT TR - μετα δε το δευτερον καταπετασμα σκηνη η λεγομενη αγια αγιων

Hebrews 9:7 KJB - But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Hebrews 9:7 GNT TR - εις δε την δευτεραν απαξ του ενιαυτου μονος ο αρχιερευς ου χωρις αιματος ο προσφερει υπερ εαυτου και των του λαου αγνοηματων

Hebrews 9:8 KJB - The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Hebrews 9:8 GNT TR - τουτο δηλουντος του πνευματος του αγιου μηπω πεφανερωσθαι την των αγιων οδον ετι της πρωτης σκηνης εχουσης στασιν

Hebrews 13:11 KJB - For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

Hebrews 13:11 GNT TR - ων γαρ εισφερεται ζωων το αιμα περι αμαρτιας εις τα αγια δια του αρχιερεως τουτων τα σωματα κατακαιεται εξω της παρεμβολης

Revelation 15:5 KJB - And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Revelation 15:5 GNT TR - και μετα ταυτα ειδον και ιδου ηνοιγη ο ναος της σκηνης του μαρτυριου εν τω ουρανω​

Seventh-day Adventists, including O.R.L. Crosier [Day Star Extra, February 7th, 1846, you may read in full here - The Sanctuary, Table of Contents -- Ellen G. White Writings ], and especially sister Ellen G. White, do/did not teach, and have never taught, that Hebrews 9:12 happened in AD 1844.

The event in Hebrews 9:12, took place in AD 31, at Christ's Ascension from the Mount of Olives, which parallels Psalms 24:1-10, 133:1-3; Revelation 5:5,6, etc. We do however teach, that the text of Daniel 7:13, and the events therein, took place in AD 1844, based upon the ending of the 2,300 prophecy of Daniel 8:13,14,26, 9:24-27, 11:31-33,40, 12:7-13; Revelation 9:13-15; 10:1-11, etc.

The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911, page 421 -

"... Thither the faith of Christ's disciples followed him as he ascended from their sight. Here their hopes centered, “which hope we have,” said Paul, “as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever.” “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” [Hebrews 6:19, 20; 9:12.]

For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record. As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended. At that time, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, our High Priest entered the most holy, to perform the last division of his solemn work,—to cleanse the sanctuary. ..." - The Great Controversy, Page 421 -- Ellen G. White Writings

The Desire of Ages, page 166; 1898 -

"... The sacrificial service that had pointed to Christ passed away; but the eyes of men were turned to the true sacrifice for the sins of the world. The earthly priesthood ceased; but we look to Jesus, the minister of the new covenant, and “to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” “The way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: ... but Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, ... by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” Hebrews 12:24; 9:8-12. ..." - The Desire of Ages, Page 166 -- Ellen G. White Writings

Walter Martin [and assoc., including John Ankerberg] was/and still are dead wrong, on both counts, and even the (so-called) LXX in Exodus 26:33 disagrees with him [them].

Exodus 26:33 KJB - And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

Exodus 26:33 (so-called) LXX - καὶ θήσεις τὸ καταπέτασμα ἐπὶ τοὺς στύλους καὶ εἰσοίσεις ἐκεῖ ἐσώτερον τοῦ καταπετάσματος τὴν κιβωτὸν τοῦ μαρτυρίου· καὶ διοριεῖ τὸ καταπέτασμα ὑμῖν ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων.​

The "holy place" [τοῦ ἁγίου] is separate [by a second "vail" [καταπέτασμα]] from and not the same as the "most holy" [τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων].

I liked a lot of the scriptures you quote here. The Sanctuary shows the great day of atonement and the judgement in the last days. Perhaps it is time for a simple discussion thread on the topic? :oldthumbsup:
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I would if it would be of any value for you. Besides that you've been here long enough to read what you ask for. If presented again you'll only reject it.
There is no scripture other than the one I quoted in Rev 3 that mentions the Lord's day so don't pretend like there is but you won't give it because of my possibly rejecting it. Very disingenuous and revealing.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Great scripture, and thanks for posting it.

Yes line upon line, precept upon precept, which of course is a reference to building doctrine with context, each line establishing and building upon another.


Brother, look at the context of verse 44.

Like I said before, it was Paul’s custom to start in the synagogue with the Jews and proselyts to teach them from the OT scriptures about the Messiah, in order to get them to believe.

Please stop taking this out of context, because these Jews who gathered in a synagogue on the Sabbath were unsaved, and were following the law of Moses.

Here is your scripture in context.


14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.”

16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen: 17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He brought them out of it. 18 Now for a time of about forty years He put up with their ways in the wilderness. 19 And when He had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, He distributed their land to them by allotment.

20 “After that He gave them judges for about four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they asked for a king; so God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. 22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’ 23 From this man’s seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus— 24 after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John was finishing his course, he said, ‘Who do you think I am? I am not He. But behold, there comes One after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to loose.’

26 “Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent. 27 For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him. 28 And though they found no cause for death in Him, they asked Pilate that He should be put to death. 29 Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb. 30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’

34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:

‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’

35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm:

‘You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.’

36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest what has been spoken in the prophets come upon you:

Behold, you despisers,
Marvel and perish!
For I work a work in your days,
A work which you will by no means believe,
Though one were to declare it to you.’”


42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 13:14-52


Again, please read the context.


So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.


Again the Jews and proselytes who gathered on the Sabbath, were unsaved, unbelievers, not the Church gathering to worship Jesus.

Furthermore the Jews opposed the message of the Gospel, and stirred up the city against Paul, blaspheming and contradicting his message.

The whole city had never heard these things before and wanted to hear more, so they went back to the synagogue where they thought Paul would be, to hear what Paul said because they were hungry for the word, not because there was a commandment from Jesus or the Apostles to gather on the Sabbath to worship Jesus, but because they were drawn by the Spirit to hear about God’s kingdom and eternal life.


Please read these things in context, and don’t be persuaded by false teachers.

You are free to worship on whatever day you want.

The Lord knows man needs to rest each week and has made a day for that.

If you are convinced to gather with brothers and sisters to worship on Saturday then do so, if Sunday or Wednesday or what ever day then do so.

Each person should be convinced about this matter in their own mind.


As Paul gave instruction about this -

  • One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.


One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:5-10



JLB
A lot of words to only miss the critical fact hidden in the passage.... how did the gentiles hear the words spoken to the Jews in the synagogue? More than likley by standing outside the synagogue and listening wouldn't you say? Don't suppose itwas being broadcast do you? When the apostles came out of the synagogue they were pressed to continue to be taught the next Sabbath... why the next Sabbath? Couldn't Paul and company preached to the gentiles the next day, the first day of the week? The day that you claim was called the Lord's day? The day that you suppose is when the gentile church gathered? Why did the apostles not know that as you contend they were the ones that instituted 1st day worship? You lack of reading the details are what take the understanding out of context. Fact is, Sabbath was still the Holy day when men, both Jew and gentile gathered to learn of God on His day of rest that was Sanctified... you know, set apart for a sacred purpose... like worship.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I've no idea why you ask such a question.
Because, as I already knew, you have no Biblical reasoning for an answer... answer the question without playing the 'look at what it says here" diversion game.

The Bible exhorts us to reason together, so why does Galations 3 say that the Law was added because of sin? When did sin begin... ergo, when did the Law begin?

You can't answer that question honestly or you would have to come to some new conclusions on a bunch of difficult questions that opens up. Consider that pride and rebellion may try and get in the way and pray for deliverence....
 
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There is no scripture other than the one I quoted in Rev 3 that mentions the Lord's day so don't pretend like there is but you won't give it because of my possibly rejecting it. Very disingenuous and revealing.

The Lord's Day isn't mentioned in Revelation 3; but is in Revelation 1. Is that what you meant?
 
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Because, as I already knew, you have no Biblical reasoning for an answer... answer the question without playing the 'look at what it says here" diversion game.

The Bible exhorts us to reason together, so why does Galations 3 say that the Law was added because of sin? When did sin begin... ergo, when did the Law begin?

You can't answer that question honestly or you would have to come to some new conclusions on a bunch of difficult questions that opens up. Consider that pride and rebellion may try and get in the way and pray for deliverence....

Why am I not seeing the commandment to love one another being kept?

Let us have the mind of Christ and love one another as He loved us.
 
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ralliann

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A lot of words to only miss the critical fact hidden in the passage.... how did the gentiles hear the words spoken to the Jews in the synagogue? More than likley by standing outside the synagogue and listening wouldn't you say? Don't suppose itwas being broadcast do you? When the apostles came out of the synagogue they were pressed to continue to be taught the next Sabbath... why the next Sabbath? Couldn't Paul and company preached to the gentiles the next day, the first day of the week? The day that you claim was called the Lord's day? The day that you suppose is when the gentile church gathered? Why did the apostles not know that as you contend they were the ones that instituted 1st day worship? You lack of reading the details are what take the understanding out of context. Fact is, Sabbath was still the Holy day when men, both Jew and gentile gathered to learn of God on His day of rest that was Sanctified... you know, set apart for a sacred purpose... like worship.
They went to the temple, for worship not synagogue. The liturgical ministers were the priests which appeared before God. The synagogue did not become a place of liturgical worship until after the temple was destroyed.
 
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Amazing. All I have quoted is you and God's WORD. Someone is not telling the truth and I am sure it is not God's WORD as God's WORD is spirit and truth (John 6:63)



Well there you go something we can agree on :oldthumbsup: Then there is no excuse for you to break God's 4th Commandment (James 2:8-12).



Indeed we are living in the NEW COVENANT and no longer need to follow the SHADOWS of the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT. God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) was never the same as MOSAIC BOOK of SHADOW laws.

SCRIPTURE SUPPORT CLICK ME...




God's WORD disagrees with you...

Now you already agreed there is no scripture that says God's 4th Commandment has now been ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a HOLY DAY.

Now if there is NO scripture that says God's 4th Commandment has been ABOLSIEHD and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a HOLY DAY where is your argument?

Why would God need to give any of the 10 commandments again when they were already given to mankind 4000 years earlier and God's people already had them?

Scripture has already been provided to you answering your questions in relation to God's Sabbath in the NEW TESTAMENT. You have chosen to ignore it.

Building on the OLD TESTAMENT in the NEW TESTAMENT .....

In your view...

1. Jesus DID NOT TEACH that it is lawful to do GOOD on the Sabbath? (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)

2. Jesus DID NOT TEACH that God's Sabbath was made for mankind and not man for the Sabbath rebuking the tradtions of the Jew in regards to their traditions and interpretation around Sabbath keeping? (Mark 2:27-28; Matthew 12:8)

3. Jesus DID NOT TEACH that he was the maker and creator of the Sabbath and the God of creation? (Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1-3; 14; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16-17; Mark 2:27)

4. Jesus IS NOT OUR EXAMPLE who kept the Sabbath as well as all those who followed him (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

5. Jesus DID NOT TEACH that if break God's Commandments and teach others to do so will not enter God's Kingdom? (Matt 5:19)

6. Jesus DID NOT TEACH that not a jot or tittle will pass from God's LAW until heaven and earth pass away? (Matthew 5:18)

7. Jesus DID NOT TEACH that on the two great commandments of LOVE to GOD and MAN hang ALL the LAW and the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40)

8.
Paul DID NOT WARN US that those who do NOT believe and follow GOD do not enter into God's Sabbath rest because of their SINS and UNBELIEF (Hebrews 3-4)

9. Paul DID NOT KEEP the Sabbath with both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 13:14-15; 42-44; Acts 16:13; Acts 17-1-2; Acts 18:4-5)

10. Jesus, Paul, James, John and Peter DID NOT KEEP the Sabbath and taught there is 10 Commandments which includes the Sabbath and if you break anyone of God's Commandments you stand guilty before God of breaking all of them (James 2:8-12; Romans 7:7; 3:20; 1 John 3:4).

Why would Jesus and the Apostles give us further instruction in relation to Sabbath keeping building on the OLD TESTAMENET scriptures if we no longer need to keep it? (Point 1, 2, 3, 6)

.....................

Now JBL who is lying? I BELIEVE God's WORD and it does not agree with you, unless you want to call Jesus, Paul, James and Peter all liars?

ROMANS 3:4 [4], God forbid: yes, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged.

Only God's WORD is true and you have not provided any for your teachings.

.....................

Now please show me one scripture that says God's 4th Commandments is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? If you cannot why do you break God's 4th Commandment?

There is alot of scripture that disagrees with your teaching that you have ignored in...

POST # 370 linked CLICK ME

POST # 338 linked CLICK ME

POST # 337 linked CLICK ME

POST # 228 linked CLICK ME

It seems God's WORD disagrees with you my friend.

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

So you're upset because we won't ignore passages like Luke 16:16; John 1:17, 3:16-18,5:24, chapter 10, 15:10; Romans 7:6, 10:4; Galatians 3:19 and many more just for starters.
 
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Because, as I already knew, you have no Biblical reasoning for an answer... answer the question without playing the 'look at what it says here" diversion game.

The Bible exhorts us to reason together, so why does Galations 3 say that the Law was added because of sin? When did sin begin... ergo, when did the Law begin?

You can't answer that question honestly or you would have to come to some new conclusions on a bunch of difficult questions that opens up. Consider that pride and rebellion may try and get in the way and pray for deliverence....

The Sinai covenant began 430 after Abraham. The forefathers of the Israelites at Sinai didn't have the Sinai covenant. Deut 5:3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

There is no scriptural evidence for your useless claim.
 
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Matthew 5 "do not even think that I came to reduce or abolish the LAW"
Mark 2:27 "the SABBATH was MADE for mankind"
Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching - and as they heard they were believing -- yet still meeting "every Sabbath".
Isaiah 66:23 for "all eternity after the cross" -- "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" - in the New Earth.
Acts 15 - the Christian church "solution" relies on the fact that "every Sabbath Moses is preached in the Synagogues"
Hebrew 4 'there REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God"

None of that is said in either OT or NT about "week-day-1"
None of them are a command to keep the 4th commandment. In fact your Hebrews 4 partial doesn't even talk about the sabbath. Neither does your Isaiah 66 passage.
Interesting response to the post of those Bible texts... do you find the texts 'questionable'??
Find them questionable? What a hoot.We find them being misrepresented.
Do you find that challenge at the end of those texts that says "None of that is said in either OT or NT about 'week-day-1' " questionable?
No we what we don't find is any requirement to worship on Saturday.
Is the "mere quote of them" a high-jack since they don't appear to support your preference? is that sufficient cause to give rise to your strong objection to them?
It's well known your intended meaning does.
Can you show us that the Ten Commandments are deleted in the NT?
Can you show us that the NT authors told us to "ignore scripture"?
Yes but you refuse to believe them. By-the-way we've already done that several times and you continue to post as though nothing was said.
Can you show us the logic in asking to "learn about the Sabbath" while insisting on ignoring any scripture that mentions it?
Where is the Scripture saying anything about a desire to learn about the sabbath? Surely you have Acts 15 in mind.
In Matthew 22 Christ refers to the LAW of Moses
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

Was Jesus wrong?
No. why? aren't you implying something besides what the context shows. Jesus wasn't teaching anything. Jesus gave a reasonable answer to the man's question. But then I must ask is John 15:10 saying to keep the law? You'll most likely say yes and I'm going to ask you to explain this verse as I've always done. You will refuse and by pass.
Speaking of the OT - Paul says "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16 - was Paul wrong
Your intention is the NT isn't the Scripture. In short you're promoting a form of Judaism because without the NT there's no Christianity or salvation.
Jesus said
Matthew 19
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’ Exodus 20
You shall not commit adultery,’ Exodus 20
You shall not steal,’ Exodus 20
You shall not bear false witness,’ Exodus 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Exodus 20
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Lev 19:18

All of it from "The Law of Moses"
Was Jesus wrong?
Is Jesus' teaching to be "rejecting" by anyone wanting to "learn about the Sabbath"??
Why did the man leave sorrowfully? Jesus didn't say he lied after saying he kept them. The Scripture says plainly no one keeps the law. You've yet to post the name of anyone who has done this incredible feat other than Jesus. My Scriptural take is it's impossible.
Jesus shows that acceptance of the foundation-command in Lev 19:18 regarding man's duty to his neighbor -- did not "delete" the commandments in the TEN - that are based on it.
God deleted them as He promised. Look I know this infuriates you. The problem is you refuse to believe even the OT Scripture.
No - I did not.

And emphatically stated He was not abolishing either the Law or the prophets (the Bible).
In that famous sermon Jesus didn't teach and require the law be observed. Jesus said "You have heard of old time.." and "But I say..." This is a change and objection to the past for any reasonable person reading the text.
And then in Matthew 19 "Keep the Commandments" where they are specifically illustrated by Christ as being a quote right out of the Ten Commandments and Law of Moses in Lev 19:18.
So you don't understand what is going on in Matthew 19. I think this is becacuse you refuse to consider the whole story and are just looking for proof texts. Your promotion of such by passes Jesus for salvation.
"The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
Just an out of context quote intended to say something it doesn't. [/quote]this has been repeatedly discussed.
No. I did not.

The mere quote of the text is sufficient cause for some to give a loud false accusation and objection to it.
We've no objection to the text. We do have objection to your implied meaning.
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
I still can't find any thing about the sabbath in this verse. It plainly says from...to and nothing about the sabbath or even on the sabbath.
"From Sabbath to Sabbath" is a very specific point in time -- Sabbath and is stated as occurring for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.
Yes a week is a specific point of and in time.
The fact that they "ALSO" will be keeping a monthly observance at that time does not delete the statement made about the Bible Sabbath that both Isaiah and his readers knew about.
So do you also practice this monthly observance? What about the activity of verse 24 since you insist verse 23 is talking about sabbath activity?
context matters.

Bible details matter.
But not to you.
 
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ralliann

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The Sinai covenant began 430 after Abraham. The forefathers of the Israelites at Sinai didn't have the Sinai covenant. Deut 5:3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Very true. Also the righteousness which is by that later law is not for an inheritance of the kingdom of Christ.

Self righteousness vs God's righteousness.....
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Self righteousness.....................
De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

God's righteousness...............
De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

The land was the possession by promise to Abraham..........
Israel never possessed the land by the righteousness which was by the law of Moses...
Rather they possessed the land by God's faithfulness to his oath......
Ga 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
 
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Very true. Also the righteousness which is by that later law is not for an inheritance of the kingdom of Christ.

Self righteousness vs God's righteousness.....
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Self righteousness.....................
De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

God's righteousness...............
De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

The land was the possession by promise to Abraham..........
Israel never possessed the land by the righteousness which was by the law of Moses...
Rather they possessed the land by God's faithfulness to his oath......
Ga 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Very good discussion about righteousness.
 
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1. Do not take God's name in vain" - from the LAW of Moses - do you observe it?
2. Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" from the LAW of Moses
3. Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" from the LAW of Moses

Luke 16 "if they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead"
The evidence is you don't listen to Moses.
 
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