God Does Not Give Equal Opportunity

Tree of Life · May 2, 2018

HypnoToad said:
I don't see where.

Romans 10:13 - "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved..."

"The Lord" here is specifically the Lord Jesus

Romans 10:14 - "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?"

The implication here is that they cannot call on someone in whom they haven't believed. And they cannot believe in one of whom they have never heard. And they will not hear about him unless someone preaches to them. Ergo, preaching is necessary.

Romans 10:17 - "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Jesus calls people to salvation through the preaching and hearing of the gospel. Ordinarily, a person cannot be saved unless they hear the gospel and repent.

bling · May 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
God does not give every individual an equal opportunity to be saved. Living in the west, the gospel is preached regularly and ubiquitously. Furthermore, we have the unique ability to read, access to books, and access to the internet. In the West, we have more access to God’s Word than any other culture ever has.

Not so in other parts of the world at different times. The ancient Greeks (pre-Christ) did not have the opportunity to hear the gospel. Ancient peoples of the East (China, Japan) did not have this opportunity. We could think of many others.

God does not give every individual an equal opportunity to be saved. Is this unfair or unjust on God’s part? Explain.

Quit blaming God for my mistakes.

God set up a system in which over a short period of time (maybe 40-50 years or so), at any time, with any one person getting it started, every individual would have the opportunity to experience Christ physically and mentally: Loving them, teaching them, listening to them, spending time with them, showing them real Love, and thus providing the opportunity for every individual to accept or reject God’s Love.

This “system” was established and shown through while Christ was on earth: takes little money, little previous education, and maybe only just part of the Bible, but the whole Bible would be nice.

The system works by you allowing the Holy Spirit (Christ) to work through you to mentor/disciple a small group (4-12). If you can just average one disciple per year (a person like yourself who will allow the Spirit to work through them to disciple other), you will run out of people on earth to disciple in 36 years.

The fact that we are not ceasing this opportunity and power before us, has and does result in some people never having the opportunity to accept or reject God’s Love, but God is totally fair and will judge their hearts.

Light of the East · May 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Romans 1 teaches that all men are culpable enough to be condemned.
On what grounds does the RCC think this is possible?

How about that Bible you worship?

Rom 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (So much for just "hearing" the "Word of God" and not having corresponding works. Works aren't necessary? Hah! Not what Paul said)

Rom 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, (In other words, they have NEVER heard the Word of God) do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, (The Holy Spirit puts the law in their hearts and minds) their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Myychael · May 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
No. God is not obligated to give anyone the opportunity to be saved.

But he is obligated to do what is right and back up his word Palm 138:1,2 because he watches over his word we can count on The Father to do what is right we can speculate all we want an RCC Prebys Bap COG Meth but we can all agree that our great Father will do the right thing he is HOLY and we like our
Lord Jesus if he doesn’t come one day will trust our Spirit to the Fathers hand for safe keeping as it were.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

God will do the right thing concerning his children I really appreciate the questioning of God by Abraham here in Gen 18

16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. Gen 19;2
And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. So we go from 50 counting down to ten
At Abraham’s continuing questioning or his dialogue with the Father what we get is no matter what the circumstance the Father will do what is right and sometimes a little more for a Righteous man`s request.

Light of the East · May 2, 2018

Micah888 said:
Of course. But He does not violate His character or His Word. And God is not arbitrary. He works according to rules, principles, and laws.

Horsefeathers.

Roman nonsense.

The Western Church is filled with this constant appeal to "rules, laws, principles" instead of dealing with the greater issue of God being love and acting according to that principle. It was in seminary that I first found out that the culture of the Roman Empire in which Christianity was formed was absolutely obsessed with ideas concerning law, practice of law, how the law should work, etc. In other words, the culture of Rome distorted the message of God's love into God being a Judge rather than a Father.

Light of the East · May 2, 2018

Job3315 said:
Unite States was founded in God while other countries were founded in other gods. Unfortunately United States slowly departed from its roots and we have many religions worshipping other gods. Now the nation is divided and most of what we are suffering are the consequences of idolatration.

Don’t forget that salvation is individual while God’s favor can be received individually and as a group. I am sure that even though you see a country devastated by the adoration to other gods, there are individual families being bless in those countries because they worship the Lord of Lord.

The United States was founded in heresy and slavery. God had nothing to do with it, other than an oblique reference to Him from time to time in the writings of men who had kidnapped and owned other men, which is opposition to the Bible.

Tree of Life · May 2, 2018

Light of the East said:
Rom 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (So much for just "hearing" the "Word of God" and not having corresponding works. Works aren't necessary? Hah! Not what Paul said)

I agree with Paul. If a person is able to obey God's Law then they don't need a redeemer, and therefore do not need to hear about Jesus. However, if we continue to read Paul's argument we'll see that he doesn't believe that anyone - Jew or Gentile - is able to obey God's Law and that all need a redeemer.

Rom 2:14

Click to expand...

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, (In other words, they have NEVER heard the Word of God) do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, (The Holy Spirit puts the law in their hearts and minds) their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

I agree. The work of the Law is written on the hearts of the nations. Strictly speaking, they do not need the 10 commandments in order to know what's right and wrong. If anyone is able to obey this law written on his heart then they don't need a redeemer and therefore don't need to hear the gospel. But, as I said above, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Keep reading! Paul talks about this as he continues his argument in Romans 3.

Light of the East · May 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Not enough to save a sinner. All men have enough knowledge in order to be condemned.

Do you Calvinists ever stop to think of what a MONSTER you make God into?

Tree of Life · May 2, 2018

Light of the East said:
Do you Calvinists ever stop to think of what a MONSTER you make God into?

If our God is the God of the Bible, perhaps your quarrel is with God and not with Calvinism.

Light of the East · May 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
I agree with Paul. If a person is able to obey God's Law then they don't need a redeemer, and therefore do not need to hear about Jesus. However, if we continue to read Paul's argument we'll see that he doesn't believe that anyone - Jew or Gentile - is able to obey God's Law and that all need a redeemer.

I agree. The work of the Law is written on the hearts of the nations. Strictly speaking, they do not need the 10 commandments in order to know what's right and wrong. If anyone is able to obey this law written on his heart then they don't need a redeemer and therefore don't need to hear the gospel. But, as I said above, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Keep reading! Paul talks about this as he continues his argument in Romans 3.

You say this, yet you ignore the fact that Jesus taught that men are blind and in ignorance in the corruption of sin.

Just having the Law written on their hearts is not clear enough to tell them exactly what that means. The Gospel clarifies who God is, what it means to love Him, and what salvation involves. Lacking that information, the best a pagan can do is to guess at these parameters.

Tree of Life · May 2, 2018

Myychael said:
But he is obligated to do what is right and back up his word Palm 138:1,2 because he watches over his word we can count on The Father to do what is right we can speculate all we want an RCC Prebys Bap COG Meth but we can all agree that our great Father will do the right thing he is HOLY and we like our
Lord Jesus if he doesn’t come one day will trust our Spirit to the Fathers hand for safe keeping as it were.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

God will do the right thing concerning his children I really appreciate the questioning of God by Abraham here in Gen 18

16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. Gen 19;2
And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. So we go from 50 counting down to ten
At Abraham’s continuing questioning or his dialogue with the Father what we get is no matter what the circumstance the Father will do what is right and sometimes a little more for a Righteous man`s request.

God will do what is right. But this does not mean that God is obligated to save anyone. God's choice to save sinners is an act of free grace, not of obligation.

Tree of Life · May 2, 2018

Light of the East said:
You say this, yet you ignore the fact that Jesus taught that men are blind and in ignorance in the corruption of sin.

I agree that men are blind and ignorant and unable to truly understand God or his law. They are therefore unable to be saved by obedience to the Law. This isn't a deficiency in the Law, but a deficiency in mankind. In principle, as Paul teaches in Romans 2, if one obeys the Law, they will be saved. But in reality this is impossible because man is fallen.

Just having the Law written on their hearts is not clear enough to tell them exactly what that means. The Gospel clarifies who God is, what it means to love Him, and what salvation involves. Lacking that information, the best a pagan can do is to guess at these parameters.

I agree that the preaching and hearing of the gospel is necessary for people to be saved.

Light of the East · May 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
If our God is the God of the Bible, perhaps your quarrel is with God and not with Calvinism.

No....I was PCA for 13 years. Calvin's ideas of God's treatment of mankind are diabolical. The idea that God, who is love, would arbitrarily choose to throw some into torment forever, an unending conscious suffering, makes Him a monster and not a loving heavenly Father. Fathers don't do that to their own children, much less our heavenly Father.

Calvin's ideas aren't even biblical. They come from pulling scriptures out of context of the whole, making up doctrine out of whole cloth, and ignoring historical settings of certain verses, such as Romans 3, which is so popular with Evangelicals to prove that all are sinners and have come short of the glory of God. No one bothers to read and understand the CONTEXT of what St. Paul was writing there, that Paul was quoting the Psalms in which the "no one seeks God, they have all gone astray" is not speaking of those who are God's people, but only those who reject God.

Light of the East · May 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
God will do what is right. But this does not mean that God is obligated to save anyone. God's choice to save sinners is an act of free grace, not of obligation.

If you create something, you are OBLIGED to care for it. That is what love does. Our God is love, not hatred.

Tree of Life · May 2, 2018

Light of the East said:
If you create something, you are OBLIGED to care for it. That is what love does. Our God is love, not hatred.

So when God saves sinners he is simply doing his duty?

So much for Amazing Grace...

HypnoToad · May 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Romans 10:13 - "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved..."

"The Lord" here is specifically the Lord Jesus

Romans 10:14 - "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?"

The implication here is that they cannot call on someone in whom they haven't believed. And they cannot believe in one of whom they have never heard. And they will not hear about him unless someone preaches to them. Ergo, preaching is necessary.

Romans 10:17 - "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Jesus calls people to salvation through the preaching and hearing of the gospel. Ordinarily, a person cannot be saved unless they hear the gospel and repent.

Whoever calls on Him being saved does NOT logically lead to the conclusion that whoever doesn't hear about Him is automatically damned. It only speaks to the assuredness of salvation to those who do call. All we can say is that is not assured to those who don't call on Him. But salvation not being assured does not necessarily equate to assured damnation.

fhansen · May 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
This is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that all men are without excuse because they know God but refuse to honor him (Romans 1:17-20). This is to say, they know enough about God for them to be without excuse. But unless they hear the gospel (wherein the righteousness of God is revealed - Romans 3:20-23), they cannot believe in Jesus and so be saved. This is why the preaching of the gospel is necessary for people to be saved (Romans 10).

Paul is saying then that we already know. We either have enough knowledge to be saved, or damned, based on that knowledge, or we do not. It cannot be both ways. If we know enough to be blameworthy, and so condemnable, then we know enough to be praiseworthy, and so salvageable.

Tree of Life · May 2, 2018

fhansen said:
Paul is saying then that we already know. We either have enough knowledge to be saved, or damned, based on that knowledge, or we do not. It cannot be both ways.

Ok, sure. All people know enough to, in theory, merit eternal life. They know right from wrong. If they can live according to what they know and obey God's Law written on their hearts, then they don't need a redeemer.

Are you suggesting that some people who never hear the gospel might be saved because of their obedience to God's law written on their hearts?

fhansen · May 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Ok, sure. All people know enough to, in theory, merit eternal life. They know right from wrong. If they can live according to what they know and obey God's Law written on their hearts, then they don't need a redeemer.

Are you suggesting that some people who never hear the gospel might be saved because of their obedience to God's law written on their hearts?

Yes, and I suggest that Rom 2 is saying that very thing.

Tree of Life · May 2, 2018

fhansen said:
Yes, and I suggest that Rom 2 is saying that very thing.

This is a bad misreading of Romans 2 and a wicked heresy condemned by your own church.

God Does Not Give Equal Opportunity

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