King David's throne

visionary said:

Luke 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

Jeremiah 33:17, 21, 26: “David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel… he shall [always] have a son to reign on his throne… [David’s] descendants [will be] rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

So how is this possible....??

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Hi vis,
Is not Jeremiah saying that "David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne", not at all saying that one of his descendants will actually be seated on that throne each and every minute? Just that a man will be available?

Does not the genealogy of Matthew's 1st chapter, from David to Joseph the husband of Mary list the names of the kings of Israel that followed David? Would it not be true to say that even those whose names are listed (including Joseph) after Israel ceased to exist as an independent nation were/would have been eligible to sit on their father David's throne if his monarchy were enthroned again?

Did Joseph adopt Yeshua, the son of Mary? If so, would Yeshua then be also in the line of Davidic kings, eligible to take His place on David's throne?

Did David and his sons rule as long as they lived? Did Joseph die, leaving Yeshua as his living heir? Does Yeshua live yet today and forever?

Therefore, is it not true today as it was at the time of the promise to David: "David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne"?

Am I close?

Shalom,

Ken

visionary said:

"he shall [always] have a son to reign on his throne… [David’s] descendants [will be] rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

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Do you agree that Yeshua is a descendant of David along his (David's) kingly line? And does Yeshua yet live today and forever? And since the reign of any king of Israel only ended at the death of that king, it would seem that Yeshua is the current (and last) descendant that can/does sit upon David's throne. Would you limit the Son of David's rule over only the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

visionary said:

Did Yeshua come to reign on His first visit?

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Good question, vis. He certainly could have if He chose to and if He accepted what the crowds wanted of Him. Instead He chose to do His Father's will and to offer Himself a sacrifice to heal the sick.

visionary said:

I think you are posting rhetorical questions here. more rhetorical questions

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Sure. Is there something wrong with that?

visionary said:

That is a question which lends itself to how is Jeremiah's prophecy fulfilling. We know david's throne is not in Heaven, even if the King is? He hasn't laid down His priest ministry yet. He hasn't been crowned King by God yet. That is why there is a thread, to work out the what, who, how, when.

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I don't see Scripture speaking at all as to just where David's throne currently is or will be, and while it can be a good exercise to speculate upon such matters, I myself don't like at all to get too dogmatic on such things as this lest I find myself going beyond Scripture. It just speaks to the fact that David will never lack a man to sit upon it, which is the point that I was trying to make - that God's promise has indeed been kept. I look forward to seeing Messiah sitting upon this throne - may that time be soon.

Blessings,

Ken

visionary said:

WHO sat on King David's throne while Israel was in Babylon?

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Sorry, but I don't see where it is/was necessary for ANYONE to have been actually sitting on his throne. Surely HaShem (at least as a partial reason) kept Israel from being totally destroyed by Babylon so that He could keep His promise (Jeremiah 33:14-16):

If you are contending that a man must have been actually sitting at all times on David's throne, then please show me your Scriptural reference for that assertion. I don't see one. If you're just speculating (that can be interesting), fine. Just looking for clarification on that point, not meaning to get off your topic.

Speaking of which (your topic), I would like to second tampasteve's excellent earlier question to you:

visionary said:

WHO sat on King David's throne while Israel was in Babylon?

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Are you asking, on this thread, if the physical throne of David existed beyond the destruction of the Temple and the exile, ie not a replacement or a copy, ever, from then to now?

visionary said:

WHO sat on King David's throne while Israel was in Babylon?

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No one. It was destroyed.

visionary said:

Any evidence of that?

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Vis,

Maybe we could make progress on this if you would participate in the give and take here instead of just challenging posters with more questions. Your own posted goal:


seems to not be in sight here.

visionary said:

Any evidence of that?

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It no longer exists.

visionary said:

How can I have a give and take with comments like "it no longer exists" without evidence?

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Actually, I don't have to prove "It no longer exists." It is the claim that it exists which must be proven--you would have to produce it. Virtually all of the gold and silver of Jerusalem was taken to Babylon and melted down for its wealth. What use do you think the Babylonians would have had for King David's Throne? They would have destroyed all evidence of Judah's government as a sign of triumph. This is the way war was fought.

visionary said:

How can I have a give and take with comments like "it no longer exists" without evidence?

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Well, you could clarify if the throne that you're thinking of and inquiring about is the physical one that David literally sat upon, a metaphorical throne that is representative of David's kingship from his day and continuing into eternity, or a metaphysical/supernatural one of some sort. Also, perhaps you're simply taking some sort of poll to gather opinions?

Open Heart has clearly shown that she is thinking of the physical throne that David literally sat upon in his day. Others have inquired of you asking for clarification about which possibility is in your mind, presumably for the purpose of being better able to respond to your question and enter into (hopefully) a productive discussion.

Thus far, you have failed to truly respond to anyone. If you're sincere in your thread, maybe you could do some clarification?

gadar perets said:

The Kingdom will soon be restored and King Yeshua will sit on the throne of YHWH/the throne of David ruling over all Israel.

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Yes, this will literally occur in the new heavens and new earth.

visionary said:

I don't know the answer, hence the thread, where both the metaphoric and literal can be discussed.

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Thanks, vis. Let me poke and prod a little.

I think that it’s fair to believe that it’s in regard to God’s promise to David that we are searching here.


And we know that David confirmed that Solomon would sit upon his (David’s) throne:


A cursory search of Scripture does not yield to me a description of David’s physical throne/chair that he sat upon, but there is a description of the throne that Solomon had built for himself.


Hence this physical seat, being made after the death of David, indicates to me that Solomon did not (always) sit upon the physical throne of David, yet it can be truly said that Solomon sat upon David’s throne. This leads me to lean to the idea that “David’s throne to all generations” is emblematic of David’s kingdom and not his physical chair, if you will.

We also know, from Ezekiel, that God has a throne in heaven.


This throne in Heaven is obviously not the physical throne that David sat upon. We also know that the king of Babylon carried off all significant treasures in Jerusalem, although it doesn’t seem clear that he cut anything specific in pieces except for “…all the vessels of gold …in the temple of the LORD…”.


So, I believe that David certainly had a physical chair to sit upon as king of Israel. It’s survival or destruction is unknown to us. I also don't recall Josephus as speaking of this chair, nor does any other secular source that I am aware of. I do not know if the Talmud speaks of this.

Solomon, David’s heir, had a new (probably more grandiose?) chair made for himself. It’s survival or destruction is also unknown to us so far as I am aware. God has a throne, described above by Ezekiel, that is far more glorious than Solomon's. His throne certainly survives to this day, may we all see it soon.

So, to me anyway, the important "throne of David" is the one spoken of in regard to the promise given to David, and I don't think that this was a chair being spoken of, especially since Solomon seems to not of had any problem (or rebuke) in making a new chair for himself. So it would seem that the important “throne of David” is David’s kingdom, which kingdom will certainly be ruled in person by David’s Son, in Jerusalem, during the Millennial Kingdom (may it be soon). And at that time He will be said to be sitting on David's throne. As to the physical chair that David sat upon, is it collecting dust somewhere waiting to be reused? - I doubt it, but if someone wants to insist that it is so, then I would be interested to see their evidence - not mere speculation - that such a belief is based upon.

Thanks for the exercise - and clarification - vis.

visionary said:

We can think of scripture that points to the "throne of David" but there are varying thoughts regarding what it is. Some say it is a position, others say it is the actual throne seat that King David sat on. And then there are all that which is inbetween or both.

2 Sam 7:12 When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who shall come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, but My loving kindness will not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed before you. And your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.

Acts 2;29 Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that He both died and was buried, and His tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore, having been exalted to the right hand of God, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

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The city of David, is Zion, where Elohéyîm shall reside for ever, it is mentioned in Isaiah 2 as the mountain house, which (being a mountain) is located in Heaven, which is a Throne, and this mountain is exalted (lifted up) above every hill.

Micah 4 reiterates and elaborates on the same mountain, and reveals that it is the daughter of Zion, who was cast far off unto Babylon, she is the one to whom the Kingdom Comes, there is where she delivers a child, as a nation is delivered from her enemies.

For the Kingdom said, if you had the Faith of a Mustard seed which is צר the least of all seeds, you be able to say unto this Mountain, be you cast intro the Sea and it will be done, which brings us to Revelations 8:08, for a Great Mountain Burning with Fire was Cast into the Sea.

This is the Stone of Daniel 2 which was cut out without hands, and strikes the Foot of Babylon, then grows and becomes a Great Mountain (just like the parable of the mustard seed indicates).

This is the everlasting Kingdom which the Elohéyîm of Heaven and Earth establishes here on earth for the Saints to inherit for ever.

You know where she is located, and those who say they do not, it is only because they either have not received the report, or they do not believe.