The Death of Jesus Christ and Judas

Ken Rank

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Well since God has already determined where Judas is, and told us so, then there should be no question about Judas being in Hell. "Son of Perdition" means "Child of Damnation" and the same epithet is used for the Antichrist (the Man of Sin). And we know that the Devil, the Beast (the Antichrist), and the False Prophet will all be cast into the Lake of Fire.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12).

What did Jesus mean by "that the Scripture might be fulfilled"? There are several Scriptures which prophesy of the betrayal of Christ by Judas, and that he would be replaced from among the apostles.
Again... the day of judgement remains before us... it is not our job to determine the eternal dwelling place of anyone... that job ALONE belongs to God.

I remind you... in the same chapter where God told Israel "For you are not My people, And I will not be your God." He came back and said, "it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.'" From "not my people" to "sons of the Living God." You can't quote one line and assume that determines the fate of a man when precedent has been set (see above) and you have specifically been told not to judge unto condemnation.
 
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JLB777

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Are you saying that Judas was "born again"?


I'm saying Judas was a believer who followed Jesus as a disciple for 31/2 years, then was made an Apostle, and sent out and empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, and cast out devils, heal the sick, and cleanse the lepers, then later he became lost.

He was destined to rule with the other Apostles in the age to come.


28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

  • you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones



JLB
 
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Alpha.Omega

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I'm saying Judas was a believer who followed Jesus as a disciple for 31/2 years, then was made an Apostle, and sent out and empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, and cast out devils, heal the sick, and cleanse the lepers, then later he became lost.

He was destined to rule with the other Apostles in the age to come.


28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

  • you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones



JLB

Indeed, but Judas did not follow Jesus, because he betrayed Him! Hence he is called the "son of perdition"
 
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JackRT

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Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. It is astonishing that Paul, the earliest Christian writer, does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul implies here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.


If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit in Matthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.


Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here. Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong. Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testament references. The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews? This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.


Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.


1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.


Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection. It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection. There are some serious contradictions in these three sources. We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.


One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple in the first century and had not been used for over 200 years. They had been replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12-13.
 
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ewq1938

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Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. It is astonishing that Paul, the earliest Christian writer, does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul implies here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.

Paul implied no such thing. The use of "the twelve" doesn't only apply to the first 12 but any 12 of importance. All someone had to do is volunteer to be the one who "held the bag" which was Judas' job even if it was temporary. There's much about those times that weren't written down but we know that Judas was dead before the resurrection. To say otherwise is to charge scripture with error and contradictions.


Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong.

Or you.
 
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JackRT

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Paul implied no such thing. The use of "the twelve" doesn't only apply to the first 12 but any 12 of importance. All someone had to do is volunteer to be the one who "held the bag" which was Judas' job even if it was temporary. There's much about those times that weren't written down but we know that Judas was dead before the resurrection. To say otherwise is to charge scripture with error and contradictions.

Can you give my a scriptural instance where the phrase "the twelve" is used when it does not refer to the original twelve apostles?


Yes, I can and have been wrong and so have you.
 
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ewq1938

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Can you give my a scriptural instance where the phrase "the twelve" is used when it does not refer to the original twelve apostles?

Yes, the one we are talking about by Paul. These also:

Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This would be the above 12 not the names of the original 12 because Judas was a devil.


Yes, I can and have been wrong and so have you.

I've never said one of two writers of scripture had to be wrong though. That is error enough but another error is your belief that "the twelve" must always include Judas when that is not true.
 
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Alpha.Omega

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Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. It is astonishing that Paul, the earliest Christian writer, does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul implies here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.


If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit in Matthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.


Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here. Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong. Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testament references. The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews? This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.


Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.


1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.


Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection. It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection. There are some serious contradictions in these three sources. We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.


One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple in the first century and had not been used for over 200 years. They had been replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12-13.

Simply put, you have misunderstood the Bible.
 
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Alpha.Omega

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Can you give my a scriptural instance where the phrase "the twelve" is used when it does not refer to the original twelve apostles?



Yes, I can and have been wrong and so have you.

"Can you give my a scriptural instance where the phrase "the twelve" is used when it does not refer to the original twelve apostles?"

Acts 19:1-7 mentions 12 "disciples", who are clearly not THE 12! You are stretching the Bible to accommodate your understanding of things. It does not work that way!
 
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JLB777

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Indeed, but Judas did not follow Jesus, because he betrayed Him! Hence he is called the "son of perdition"

Judas followed Jesus for over 3 years as a disciple, then was made an Apostle, and empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, cast out devils, and cleanse the lepers, then he became a traitor.

A sober lesson for all of us.


Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
1 Corinthians 10:12



JLB
 
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Alpha.Omega

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Do you realize that "born again" is a metaphor?

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)

"regeneration", is from the Greek noun, "παλιγγενεσία", which literally is "born-again" (πάλιν and γένεσις).
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Are you saying that Judas was "born again"?

I'm truly surprised how many people would like to think that!

From all my years spent in several different churches and bible studies attended and reading my Bible I have never heard that taught that Judas was born again.

M-Bob
 
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Alpha.Omega

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I'm truly surprised how many people would like to think that!

From all my years spent in several different churches and bible studies attended and reading my Bible I have never heard that taught that Judas was born again.

M-Bob

Some even think that the devil will be saved!
 
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Butch5

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"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)

"regeneration", is from the Greek noun, "παλιγγενεσία", which literally is "born-again" (πάλιν and γένεσις).

Firstly, the bath or regeneration is water baptism. One is not literally born in baptism, thus the phrase "born again" is a metaphor.

Secondly, the phrase in Scripture is only ever used of Jewish people, never Gentiles. That's because When Jesus spoke those words to Nicodemus He was explaining something that Nicodemus didn't understand. Nicodemus, being a Jew, believed that he would receive the promises made to Abraham because of his physical birth as the seed of Abraham. Jesus was explaining that Nicodemus' physical birth was not sufficient to gain him access to the Kingdom. Jesus told him, 'you must be born again'. Being the physical offspring of Abraham is not sufficient to gain anyone entrance into the Kingdom.
 
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Alpha.Omega

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Firstly, the bath or regeneration is water baptism. One is not literally born in baptism, thus the phrase "born again" is a metaphor.

Secondly, the phrase in Scripture is only ever used of Jewish people, never Gentiles. That's because When Jesus spoke those words to Nicodemus He was explaining something that Nicodemus didn't understand. Nicodemus, being a Jew, believed that he would receive the promises made to Abraham because of his physical birth as the seed of Abraham. Jesus was explaining that Nicodemus' physical birth was not sufficient to gain him access to the Kingdom. Jesus told him, 'you must be born again'. Being the physical offspring of Abraham is not sufficient to gain anyone entrance into the Kingdom.

It is not talking about water baptism but the spiritual washing by the Holy Spirit
 
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Butch5

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It is not talking about water baptism but the spiritual washing by the Holy Spirit

No, the two are contrasted. The washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. A bath is done in water. It is the bath of regeneration. The regeneration is in the bath and the renewing is by the Spirit.

However, as I pointed out, "born again" is a metaphor which is only used of Jews, never Gentiles.
 
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sdowney717

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so Luke's account of the Lord's Supper is wrong? It is clear, even admitted by Gill and Henry, that Judas actually took the bread and wine.
Judas left with the dipping of a piece of bread (sop), so Judas was not present with the wine (blood) and bread - body .
Satan entered into Judas right at the timing of the sop. And Satan drives Judas away from Christ to betray Him.

Luke 22, Satan enters Judas before the last supper, so from here on Judas is under the influence of Satan.

Luke 22 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Plot to Kill Jesus
22 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people.

3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. 6 So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude.


In John this giving of a piece of bread was not the wording Christ gave to the 11 disciples about it being His body broken for them. Judas departs immediately after having received this piece of bread, at the instigation of Peter 's request, the body-bread, blood-wine ceremony seemingly occurred later on after Judas had already departed. The commonality of this, the non solemnity is shown by the disciples response to Judas leaving the table. AND Judas did not come back to the table, the LORD commanded Judas to go immediately out and do this thing quickly.

John 12
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke.

25 Then, leaning back on Jesus’ breast, he said to Him, “Lord, who is it?”

26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him. 29 For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, “Buy those things we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor.

30 Having received the piece of bread, he then went out immediately. And it was night.

AND Judas was not present for all the teaching from John 14 and forward which Jesus taught to His disciples.
 
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JackRT

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To me "born again" refers to a spiritual transformation. Some are dramatic and rapid but just like a real birth some are slow and painful. Although born again language is not usually used, it is worth noting that the experience of spiritual transformation is not exclusively Christian.
 
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