Ark of the Covenant Discovered in 1982

Radagast · May 1, 2018

Shek said:
Although the use of the term Christian is attested in the book of Acts from the middle of the 1st century

Exactly. From the middle of the 1st century.

Shek said:
So the Biblical Sabbath was changed to Sunday LONG after the Apostles, is that right?

No. During the time of the Apostles.

And, btw, Wikipedia is not a reliable source in dealing with Christianity (or most other things).

But I'm unsubscribing; this debate is pointless.

Shek · May 1, 2018

Radagast said:
-- Justin Martyr, c. 150 AD.

Justin Martyr - Wikipedia

"Further, he also indicates, as St Augustine did regarding the "true religion" that predated Christianity,[6] that the "seeds of Christianity" (manifestations of the Logos acting in history) actually predated Christ's incarnation."

Shek · May 1, 2018

Radagast said:
And, btw, Wikipedia is not a reliable source in dealing with Christianity (or most other things).

I agree, it isn't.

But it's the quickest source....and I'm trying to provide evidence for further study.

Shek · May 1, 2018

Radagast said:
No. During the time of the Apostles.

Can you show me where exactly?

Sabbath in Christianity - Wikipedia

Hank77 · May 1, 2018

Shek said:
So the Biblical Sabbath was changed to Sunday LONG after the Apostles, is that right?

A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.a]">[a] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”b]">[b]

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”c]">[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”d]">[d]

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,e]">[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

The first day of the week does not take the place of the seventh day sabbath but 'today do not harden your hearts' does. Our Sabbath-rest is in our Lord Jesus and His Gospel message to us right on into eternity.
However, the first day of the week is the Lord's day and so just as in the NT we tabernacle together on the Lord's day, the resurrection day. In Christ all things are made new and better.

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 4 - New International Version

Shek · May 1, 2018

Hank77 said:
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God

Firstly, thanks for not giving up Hank, much appreciated.

And I'm not trying to be counter-productive, but you're quoting Hebrews, correct?

Since Hebrews has no known author, hence no way to verify where it originated or who authored it, is there another supporting text that you can provide? And if you're going to quote scripture, may I ask that you provide the passages using Biblehub? Thank you very much for at least providing a link!

Hebrews 4:1 Greek Text Analysis

I prefer Biblehub simply because it's the most accurate since it provides both the Greek and Hebrew. It's much easier to closely examine the originating text and find it's base definition.

Hank77 said:
The first day of the week does not take the place of the seventh day sabbath but 'today do not harden your hearts' does. Our Sabbath-rest is in our Lord Jesus and His Gospel message to us right on into eternity.

Sabbath in Christianity - Wikipedia

"Early Christians observed the seventh day with prayer and rest, but they also gathered on the first day. By the 4th century, Christians were officially observing the first day, Sunday, as their day of rest, not the seventh."

This is precisely where the Council of Nicaea comes into play in the 4th century (325 AD)

Based on early evidence, early followers of Jesus and the disciples observed the Biblical Sabbath as the day of rest according to the commandments.

So where did all of this actually change and why?

Who had the authority to alter the Torah and supersede the Lord's commandments? The quick answer is nobody...but who's responsible for actually doing it?

Hank77 said:
However, the first day of the week is the Lord's day and so just as in the NT we tabernacle together on the Lord's day, the resurrection day. In Christ all things are made new and better.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Greek Text Analysis

Paul...(or Saul the Pharisee)

Accuracy of The Torah Text | Bible

How many Christians are aware of the 13th Scroll? I didn't know about it until about 6 months ago digging for evidence.

"If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would “testify” against him."

Who's the 13th Apostle, the one that's responsible for rejecting the Torah and altering it by claiming that we're no longer under the law?

Matthew 23:1 Greek Text Analysis

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23:1-12 - New International Version

If Jesus were to have a 13th Apostle (which he didn't), it would have most certainly have been Lazarus. The single most important witness of Jesus' ministry and present at the crucifixion.

John 11:3 Greek Text Analysis

Shek · May 1, 2018

Radagast said:
And the New Testament was originally written in Greek, being complete before the year 100.

Let's go with this assumption and anyone else is free to respond.

This is something that I've been trying to find ...forever and can't.

If John was originally authored in Greek, then why the two names?

John 19:21 Greek Text Analysis

Greek word for King is Βασιλεύς

John 1:41 Greek Text Analysis

Greek word for Messiah is Μεσσίαν

But when you dig deep looking for the meaning of the Greek word Χριστός., ya know what you'll find? Nothing. This term exists nowhere else in any Greek texts (other than the NT) and cannot be corroborated to determine it's actual meaning.

Does anyone else know where the Greek word Χριστός. is used in a non-biblical account?

If not, how are we able to verify it's actual meaning?

I've seen several attempts going into the root word κύριος, (kyrios)....but I've yet to find or even have anyone else find a definitive answer where the word is used in another Greek manuscript.

The word exists nowhere else, to my knowledge, so where did the Greek word for Christ originate?

And why would it be necessary to translate this word from the Greek word for Messiah?

Radagast · May 1, 2018

Shek said:
John 1:41 Greek Text Analysis

Greek word for Messiah is Μεσσίαν

If you read John 1:41, you will see that Μεσσίας (used here in the accusative case) is the Hebrew or Aramaic word, transliterated here into Greek letters (as the New Testament does several times, for emphasis: Matthew 1:23, Matthew 27:33, Mark 5:41, John 20:16, etc.). It is immediately followed by what we are told is the Greek translation: which being translated means (ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον) Χριστός.

John and the other gospel-writers do this because, although they are writing in Greek, they are reporting Hebrew/Aramaic names or conversations which took place in Aramaic.

Just as mashiyach (messiah) is the ordinary Hebrew word for "anointed one" in the Old Testament, so Χριστός on its own is the ordinary Greek word for "anointed one," used in the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) to translate mashiyach. See here.

In the New Testament, the Christ, or Jesus Christ refers specifically to Jesus, the Messiah.

Shek said:
But when you dig deep looking for the meaning of the Greek word Χριστός., ya know what you'll find? Nothing. This term exists nowhere else in any Greek texts (other than the NT) and cannot be corroborated to determine it's actual meaning.

Nonsense! Check the dictionary.

You may also find BLB a better tool than what you've been using.

Radagast · May 1, 2018

By the way, this is the oldest fragment we have of the Gospel of John, from around the year 130, and from Egypt (some distance from its place of writing, which was probably Ephesus).

You will notice that

it's Egyptian papyrus,
it's Greek,
it's from a page of a book (with 18 lines to the page), not a scroll,
it's got parts of John 18:31-33 on one side and John 18:37-38 on the other, and
the fragments we've got agree almost exactly with the standard Greek text -- the letters are exactly what we would expect for a piece torn out of chapter 18 (although spacing suggests that the second εἰς τοῦτο = "for this purpose" in verse 37 might have been missing).

Shek · May 1, 2018

Radagast said:
It is immediately followed by what we are told is the Greek translation

Greek, like Hebrew, are supposed to be very close....but both are intensely difficult to understand context, especially Greek.

If you read John 1:41, you will see that Μεσσίας <---- Eh-eh.

Μεσσίαν

John 1:41 Greek Text Analysis

But I know what you're getting at, there are several variations of the word for Messiah in the NT. But this one used by John...is the only one in the NT.

Greek Concordance: Μεσσίαν (Messian) -- 1 Occurrence

Radagast said:
John and the other gospel-writers do this because, although they are writing in Greek, they are reporting Hebrew/Aramaic names or conversations which took place in Aramaic.

I vaguely remember reading someone else say this as well, but it still doesn't explain the two names.

Radagast said:
Nonsense! Check the dictionary.

Was that supposed to be humor?

Like I've already stated, there needs to be supporting evidence in order to corroborate the definition...for proper study. I have never found a non-biblical Greek manuscript that uses the Greek word for Christ. So where did the word originate?

Shek · May 1, 2018

Radagast said:
By the way, this is the oldest fragment we have of the Gospel of John, from around the year 130, and from Egypt (some distance from its place of writing, which was probably Ephesus).

That was very informative, thank you for sharing.

Shek · May 1, 2018

Radagast said:
You may also find BLB a better tool than what you've been using.

I've used a similar format that this site uses, but I forgot how to create a text link.

Can you show me where on the site it explains how?

Radagast · May 1, 2018

Shek said:
Greek, like Hebrew, are supposed to be very close

Huh?

Shek said:
If you read John 1:41, you will see that Μεσσίας <---- Eh-eh.

Μεσσίας is the nominative case of the word and the form you'll find in the dictionary. Μεσσίαν is the accusative case of the word and the form used in John 1:41.

Shek said:
But I know what you're getting at, there are several variations of the word for Messiah in the NT. But this one used by John...is the only one in the NT.

Yes, because only here and in John 4:25 does he report an Aramaic conversation with the Hebrew/Aramaic word "Messiah" in it. Elsewhere, he uses the Greek "Christ."

Shek said:
Was that supposed to be humor?

No, which is why I gave you a link to one of the most commonly used Greek dictionaries.

I'm amazed that looking up the dictionary didn't occur to you as an option.

Shek said:
Like I've already stated, there needs to be supporting evidence in order to corroborate the definition...for proper study.

I gave you evidence, and you turned your back on it. You're obviously being deliberately obtuse. Sorry, but I'm putting you on ignore.

Shek · May 1, 2018

Radagast said:
I'm amazed that looking up the dictionary didn't occur to you as an option.

I'm asking for a non-biblical Greek manuscript of the same time period that uses the word for Christ.

Your dictionary doesn't provide that information.

Radagast said:
I gave you evidence, and you turned your back on it. You're obviously being deliberately obtuse. Sorry, but I'm putting you on ignore.

No...I'm not. I'm asking for the word's origin which so far...is either unknown or ???

Hank77 · May 1, 2018

Shek said:
I've seen several attempts going into the root word κύριος, (kyrios)....but I've yet to find or even have anyone else find a definitive answer where the word is used in another Greek manuscript.

'Chriso' was used by Homer in 30 BCE. (Il. 23, 186; also in Od., 4, 252)

There are other examples but you can find them if this does not suffice.

Shek · May 1, 2018

Hank77 said:
'Chriso' was used by Homer in 30 BCE. (Il. 23, 186; also in Od., 4, 252)

There are other examples but you can find them if this does not suffice.

Sweet...

Is there a study link somewhere showing an English translation alongside of the Greek?

On Translating Homer - Wikipedia

This would be a major headache for me...need something more clear.

Radagast · May 1, 2018

Hank77 said:
There are other examples but you can find them if this does not suffice.

The dictionary I pointed him at gives hyperlinks for the word χριστός being used by Aeschylus (Prometheus Bound, line 480) and Euripides (Hippolytus, line 516). In those places it means "ointment." The word was adapted by Greek translators of the Old Testament to refer to holy anointing.

The verb form χρίω, meaning "to anoint with oil or something else" is (as you point out) used very widely. All hyperlinked from the dictionary.

Hank77 · May 1, 2018

Shek said:
Sweet...

Is there a study link somewhere showing an English translation alongside of the Greek?

I don't know. You'll have to research it.

I'm leaving this discussion now that it is obvious to me that you haven't put in the research time before making statements about all kinds of things. Also because you don't believe that the Bible has authority but has been seriously and deliberately corrupted. You throw out Hebrews on the bases of not knowing the author and also say that we don't really know the authors of the gospels so you must throw them out as well.
:wave:

Hank77 · May 1, 2018

Radagast said:
The dictionary I pointed him at gives hyperlinks for the word χριστός being used by Aeschylus (Prometheus Bound, line 480) and Euripides (Hippolytus, line 516). In those places it means "ointment." The word was adapted by Greek translators of the Old Testament to refer to holy anointing.

The verb form χρίω, meaning "to anoint with oil or something else" is (as you point out) used very widely. All hyperlinked from the dictionary.

Thanks. I've bookmarked and added to my Bible study file.

Shek · May 1, 2018

Radagast said:
The dictionary I pointed him at gives hyperlinks

I'm sorry...I don't understand Greek or how to navigate this site. Not to mention I almost need a jeweler's loupe just to see the hyperlinks.

Aeschylus, Prometheus Bound, line 472

That's the hyperlink for Prometheus Bound

Euripides, Hippolytus, line 486

And Hippolytus

Ark of the Covenant Discovered in 1982

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