SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

Status
Not open for further replies.

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,119
7,243
Dallas
✟873,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And I contend that there are NO verses that teach this. In fact, there are many verses that are commands for believers to live holy lives. Because it is not automatic nor guaranteed.

And those commands to believers have consequences for not obeying.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
If a person grieves the Holy Spirit, they are in danger of losing the salvation that they seem to and think they have, see Hebrews 3:12-15, Luke 8:18.
Without any explanation of what you think these verses mean, there is no reason to "see" them. They SURE DON'T say that one is in danger of losing salvation. The best you've got here is your assumption that they mean that. But they DON'T SAY THAT.

Therefore, if someone seems to be a Christian, and departs from the faith because of an evil heart of unbelief, it can only be because they were merely giving lip service to following Christ and yet did not have a regenerated heart.
Well, there are 2 verses that challenge your view to claim that Jesus was WRONG:
John 10:28 and Luke 8:13.

If you keep this up, you'll only add more verses that challenge your view to claim that Jesus or writers of Scripture were WRONG.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,119
7,243
Dallas
✟873,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Without any explanation of what you think these verses mean, there is no reason to "see" them. They SURE DON'T say that one is in danger of losing salvation. The best you've got here is your assumption that they mean that. But they DON'T SAY THAT.


Well, there are 2 verses that challenge your view to claim that Jesus was WRONG:
John 10:28 and Luke 8:13.

If you keep this up, you'll only add more verses that challenge your view to claim that Jesus or writers of Scripture were WRONG.

Not necessarily you just don’t understand John 10:27.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Seals can be broken.
Oh, don't even go there. That's bunk. eph 1:13,14 isn't talking about some physical deal, which was designed to be broken by the person intended to have the document.

The Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit Himself, so don't error by saying He can be broken.

And, since there are NO verses in the NT about anyone losing the Holy Spirit, your speculation is leading you into great confusion.

Eph 1:14 with 4:30 is a clear statement about the FACT that the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a deposit, which GUARANTEES our inheritance on the day of redemption.

It's not easy for the seal of the Spirit to be broken if it is even possible
It's not possible, because the sealing with the Spirit is a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.

but in the natural it's been done before.
What does this mean; "in the natural"?
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,119
7,243
Dallas
✟873,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Without any explanation of what you think these verses mean, there is no reason to "see" them. They SURE DON'T say that one is in danger of losing salvation. The best you've got here is your assumption that they mean that. But they DON'T SAY THAT.


Well, there are 2 verses that challenge your view to claim that Jesus was WRONG:
John 10:28 and Luke 8:13.

If you keep this up, you'll only add more verses that challenge your view to claim that Jesus or writers of Scripture were WRONG.

The seeds in Luke 8:13 aren’t acting like the sheep in John 10:27.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Of course you don’t see it my friend. You are blinded by your will to make your doctrine of OSAS true. You refute every post I make and every scripture I quote. Yet the first century church fathers didn’t teach OSAS.
This is a hoot.

John 10:28 is a clear statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Christ Himself, by His claim; "I give them eternal life".

If Jesus doesn't give eternal life, one cannot HAVE it.

The EFFECT of having eternal life is to never perish, by His claim: "and they shall never perish".

Did you notice any conditions inserted between the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life? No, you did not. And for a reason: there are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to avoid perishing.

But go ahead and disagree with the words of Jesus. They are clear enough.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The seeds in Luke 8:13 aren’t acting like the sheep in John 10:27.
They weren't seeds. They were people. Seeds don't believe.

And the people began just like the sheep in Jn 10:27. But if you still want to believe that Jesus really didn't mean what He said in 10:28, that's on you.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,119
7,243
Dallas
✟873,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This is a hoot.

John 10:28 is a clear statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Christ Himself, by His claim; "I give them eternal life".

If Jesus doesn't give eternal life, one cannot HAVE it.

The EFFECT of having eternal life is to never perish, by His claim: "and they shall never perish".

Did you notice any conditions inserted between the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life? No, you did not. And for a reason: there are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to avoid perishing.

But go ahead and disagree with the words of Jesus. They are clear enough.

Jesus didn’t say some of my sheep hear my voice and they follow me and some of my sheep don’t hear my voice and don’t follow me. He said my sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me. This is at least the 5th time I’ve brought this to your attention and you will continue to ignore it because your eyes are shut. If they don’t hear and follow they are not His sheep.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Gr8Grace

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2018
1,389
394
51
South Dakota
✟75,931.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is nothing in the book of James about "seeing the Spirit" through actions.

James' point was about whether others can see one's faith through actions.


No He didn't. He said false teachers are revealed by their actions.


Before we continue in James 2, I need to correct your quote marks. Yeah, yeah, I know that most translations have it as you do. But words prove differently.

So, this "someone" says this: some have faith, and others have deeds. OK. The next sentence is a question: How can YOU show ME your faith if you don't have deeds? So the "ME" in this sentence refers back to this "someone".

We know this from the very next statement: I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Consider this someone's opening statement: some have faith and others have deeds.

And this someone now admits that he also has faith but he also has deeds.

His challenge is towards those believers who have faith but are not showing it by deeds or actions.

And guess what: James then gives us a perfect example of just such a believer in the next 2 verses:
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

Where is the person's deeds here? No where. Lip service only. But not in saving faith, but in lifestyle.

We see this same principle in 1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

This is exactly the same principle in James 2:15,16. So the hypocrite in James 2:15,16 is a believer, not an unbeliever.

If it is impossible for a believer to commit the sin of James 2:15,16, then John would never have had to write 1 Jn 3:18. It simply wouldn't be necessary to say that.


Just know that v.19 has nothing to do with "saving faith" as so many claim and try to show that demons believe but aren't saved.

What the demons believe in v.19 is that "God is One", or what's called monotheism.

And they believe that, not from unseen faith, but because they actually experienced God. They SAW Him, so they know He is One.
Superb post. :clap::amen:
 
Upvote 0

EmSw

White Horse Rider
Apr 26, 2014
6,434
718
✟66,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
They weren't seeds. They were people. Seeds don't believe.

And the people began just like the sheep in Jn 10:27. But if you still want to believe that Jesus really didn't mean what He said in 10:28, that's on you.

Nobody is a sheep; they are people. Sheep don't believe.
 
Upvote 0

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Actually, you do, by all you've explained and posted. You've claimed that one must continue to believe in order to be saved.

Yet, Jesus said clearly that those who believe HAVE (as in POSSESS) eternal life.
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:47.

Then in 10:28 Jesus gave us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life:
He is the CAUSE of having eternal life by His statement, "I give them eternal life".
Never perishing is the EFFECT of having eternal life by His statement, "and they shall never perish."

So your claim that one must continue to believe is false.

If it was true, Jesus WOULD HAVE HAD TO SAY this:
"I give them eternal life, and IF THEY CONTINUE TO BELIEVE, they shall never perish."

But we all know He never said that. In fact, between being given eternal life, and never perishing are NO CONDITIONS placed on recipients. Maybe you hadn't considered that.


Except there are no verses that say this. And the sealing refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The influence of the Spirit only occurs when the believer is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18, a command) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16), in order to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

When the believer is grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, does that sound like being influenced by the Spirit.

I should say not.


Well, I do agree with you here. Your view is only a hypothesis. It's sure not fact, or what Jesus said in John 10:28 would be FALSE.

Are you prepared to state that what Jesus said in that verse is FALSE?


Well, you've got another verse that makes a statement of Jesus to be FALSE!!
Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Please don't bother trying to explain this away by some mumbo jumbo about this not being actual saving faith. It's the SAME WORD used for others who have believed for salvation.
Those who believe for a while, and then fall away, do not have a living and saving faith. It counted as belief; but as it was mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel and not a heart faith UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS, it didn't last. They weren't filled with the Holy Ghost and there was no real and lasting obedience. See Acts of the Apostles 5:32.
 
Upvote 0

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Again, we are saved by grace through faith; so if faith is lacking, the conduit to grace and salvation is missing. One cannot have salvation without faith. Therefore if a person is going to NEVER PERISH, it can only be because God has given them a tenacious faith that can't be undermined, destroyed, or otherwise removed. If someone loses faith, either their faith wasn't genuine and they weren't truly saved or they lost salvation because they lost faith. The latter is a hypothetical situation in my view but not necessarily impossible; the former is the most likely explanation for someone who believes for a while and then falls away. They believed (with their mind); but they didn't BELIEVE (with their heart). Yes I went there, although you said please; because it is what the Bible teaches. The Bible certainly doesn't teach that those who fall away from faith are saved, as it predicates our salvation on faith.
 
Upvote 0

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
And I contend that there are NO verses that teach this. In fact, there are many verses that are commands for believers to live holy lives. Because it is not automatic nor guaranteed.
You contend wrongly. And I noticed that you cut out of your response in your quote of me the biblical backup that I gave for my statement.

Do you confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?

A simple yes or no will do.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Yes, God IS able to keep the believer from falling.

But, that believer MUST be filled with the Spirit, and walking by His means. And he MUST NOT be grieving or quenching the Spirit.

That's how.
And of course you say this, to give false comfort to those who are quenching or grieving the Holy Spirit by teaching that they are definitely saved and that they aren't in any spiritual danger.

Hebrews 3:12-15 says, Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD. But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEDFAST UNTO THE END. Whilst it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
 
Upvote 0

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
I contend that a living and saving faith will produce a change in behaviour. By faith, we receive the love of God, shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:1-5). Real love is never in word only, but always in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18). Faith without works is dead; it cannot save. This is not to say that a deathbed conversion with no works following because of death will not save. But a living and saving faith will produce good works if given the opportunity. If the opportunity presents itself and the person disobeys, and does not do the foreordained work, that is the sign of a dead, unsalvational faith, that is not of the heart but only a mental assent to the doctrines of the faith. The person knows the Bible and believes that he believes and is going to heaven, but because the faith is not unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), a confession of Jesus as Lord would not be a true confession and therefore unsalvational, as to confess is to agree with God; so to mouth the words "Jesus is Lord," if He is not really your Lord (see Luke 6:46) is not a true confession: therefore a living and saving faith is UNTO (practical--1 John 3:7) RIGHTEOUSNESS.
 
Upvote 0

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Ezekiel 36:25-26 says, Then will I sprinkle clean water on you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

This is speaking of the new birth, agree or disagree?

Now verse 27 speaks of the result of what I think we would both have to agree is the new birth: And I will put my spirit within you (the new birth), and CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (the result of the new birth).

Therefore GOD CAUSES US TO WALK IN HIS STATUTES AND JUDGMENTS AS THE RESULT OF THE NEW BIRTH. It is as plain as day. The only reason why someone might reject this testimony that I can think of, might be what is spoken of in Hebrews 3:12-15, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, and/or 1 John 4:5-6.

In 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, it speaks of the fact that we have weapons of warfare by which we can demolish arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. So I am going to pray that the Holy Spirit convinces you of the truth, as you are taking an argument that you have derived from scripture (i.e. THERE ARE COMMANDMENTS and therefore the new birth does not produce obedience to them) in an attempt to nullify the truth of a particular scripture, above quoted (Ezekiel 36:25-27).
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Jesus didn’t say some of my sheep hear my voice and they follow me and some of my sheep don’t hear my voice and don’t follow me. He said my sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me. This is at least the 5th time I’ve brought this to your attention and you will continue to ignore it because your eyes are shut. If they don’t hear and follow they are not His sheep.
The bottom line is that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to avoid perishing. Period.

The point of v.28 is eternal security. No one can show otherwise.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.