is causing non-essential work breaking the sabbath

DamianWarS · Apr 30, 2018

Ex 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

There is some contextualizing needed to to fit our modern day context. Most of us are not nomadic farmers so causing our livestock to work is not directly applicable. But there is a spirit of the law here which is basically don't work and don't cause anyone else to work.

the first part is easy enough but the latter is not just about don't go to restaurants on the Sabbath. When our consumption needs creates a demand for a workforce to provide those needs, if they are non-essential, is this not breaking the sabbath?

I know we need certain things to live like perhaps heating when it's cold and various other circumstances but do we really need the lights on? This may seem ridiculous but if there is a high demand for power on the Sabbath then there is a workforce that meets that demand and if there is a low demand, such as essential needs only, then the workforce is significantly decreased to match that demand. Which one is honoring the sabbath? Which one are you prepared to honor?

This is almost a strawman I know but it doesn't make it false, the letter of the law is the letter of the law. We all break the sabbath according to the measure of the law and just because you don't work you can still miss the point that the law demands. What should we do? Go on pretending we follow the Sabbath? Actually follow the letter of the law, even on these high levels, and risk estranging ourselves from our mission, or follow Jesus and gain our sabbath rest through him?

.Mikha'el. · Apr 30, 2018

I personally interpret"causing others to work" as limited to one's personal household, as well as using it as a cheap workaround for tasks that we are forbidden. I see nothing but logical problems in applying that principle beyond that though. Engaging in commerce means obtaining services from other people, and in 99.9% of cases, these same people who serve our restaurant meals, bag our groceries, fill our gas tanks and so forth are going to be working on Sabbath whether we show up to be served by them or not. We neither add to nor subtract from their workload. There's no sense in turning off the lights because the folks working for the power company still work regardless of whether our lights are off. You'd need a full-scale societal shift in attitudes towards Sabbath for there to be any impact at all, and that's not going to be happening any time soon.

God bless Joshua · Apr 30, 2018

Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.…

The Hebrew who followed Sabbath was punished not to be allowed to enter the promised land, some gentiles think they can do it better.

Acts2:38 · Apr 30, 2018

DamianWarS said:
Ex 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

There is some contextualizing needed to to fit our modern day context. Most of us are not nomadic farmers so causing our livestock to work is not directly applicable. But there is a spirit of the law here which is basically don't work and don't cause anyone else to work.

the first part is easily enough but the latter is not just about don't go to restaurants on the Sabbath. When our consumption needs creates a demand for a workforce to provide those needs, if they are non-essential, is this not breaking the sabbath?

I know we need certain things to live like perhaps heating when it's cold and various other circumstances but do we really need the lights on? This may seem ridiculous but if there is a high demand for power on the Sabbath then there is a workforce that meets that demand and if there is a low demand, such as essential needs only, then the workforce is significantly decreased to match that demand. Which one is honoring the sabbath? Which one are you prepared to honor?

This is a strongman I know but it doesn't make it false. We all break the sabbath according to measure of the law and just because you don't work you can still miss the point that the law demands. What should we do? Go on pretending we follow the Sabbath? Actually follow the letter of the law, even on these high levels, and risk estranging ourselves from our mission, or follow Jesus and gain our sabbath rest through him?

I wouldn't worry about this at all. According to scripture, this is something we no longer need to do.

See the entire book of Hebrews, that was meant for Jewish Christians who were thinking about going back to the "mosaic" law.

Colossians 2 also mentions the fact that once Jesus died on the cross, this "blotted out" those old ways of doing things.

Another thought to place in front of you, is if you wish to follow one piece of old testament law, then you must do all of it. Animal sacrifices and the whole mess of things they had to do found in Exodus and Leviticus, etc. You must also do these sacrifices by going and finding someone from the Levi tribe (the priestly tribe). And I am 100% certain you will not find anyone now days that can make a 100% claim they are from the Levites since those records and knowledge was destroyed long ago when Rome burnt Jerusalem to the ground in 70AD.

No, God does not require this anymore. OT is done away with and replaced. Again, see Hebrews.

On the other hand, just like Hebrews says, to miss assembling with fellow Christians would be "forsaking" and willfully sinning (Hebrews 10:25-27). Sunday also happens to be the day Christ rose again. Sunday also happens to be when Christ commands all to take the "supper" in remembrance of what He done. Missing the assembling on Sunday to go fishing or watch a movie would be forsaking.

Even the smallest of churches I've seen has morning and night services. So even if you miss morning due to work, you can still show up for night. If you miss because of a Sunday football game, I don't think God would take too kindly in that situation.

More food for thought...

Matthew 12:10-12

DamianWarS · Apr 30, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
I wouldn't worry about this at all. According to scripture, this is something we no longer need to do.

See the entire book of Hebrews, that was meant for Jewish Christians who were thinking about going back to the "mosaic" law.

Colossians 2 also mentions the fact that once Jesus died on the cross, this "blotted out" those old ways of doing things.

Another thought to place in front of you, is if you wish to follow one piece of old testament law, then you must do all of it. Animal sacrifices and the whole mess of things they had to do found in Exodus and Leviticus, etc. You must also do these sacrifices by going and finding someone from the Levi tribe (the priestly tribe). And I am 100% certain you will not find anyone now days that can make a 100% claim they are from the Levites since those records and knowledge was destroyed long ago when Rome burnt Jerusalem to the ground in 70AD.

No, God does not require this anymore. OT is done away with and replaced. Again, see Hebrews.

On the other hand, just like Hebrews says, to miss assembling with fellow Christians would be "forsaking" and willfully sinning (Hebrews 10:25-27). Sunday also happens to be the day Christ rose again. Sunday also happens to be when Christ commands all to take the "supper" in remembrance of what He done. Missing the assembling on Sunday to go fishing or watch a movie would be forsaking.

Even the smallest of churches I've seen has morning and night services. So even if you miss morning due to work, you can still show up for night. If you miss because of a Sunday football game, I don't think God would take too kindly in that situation.

More food for thought...

Matthew 12:10-12

Contrary to our popular mindset "church" does not honor the sabbath and it really has nothing to do with it. I'm not worried about the 4th commandment as such as I know where my sabbath rest comes from but if we are to follow the letter off the law does it not demand this extreme following such as not using electricity? Do we not insult the sabbath when we choose to follow it but only in part?

DamianWarS · Apr 30, 2018

.Mikha'el. said:
I personally interpret"causing others to work" as limited to one's personal household, as well as using it as a cheap workaround for tasks that we are forbidden. I see nothing but logical problems in applying that principle beyond that though. Engaging in commerce means obtaining services from other people, and in 99.9% of cases, these same people who serve our restaurant meals, bag our groceries, fill our gas tanks and so forth are going to be working on Sabbath whether we show up to be served by them or not. We neither add to nor subtract from their workload. There's no sense in turning off the lights because the folks working for the power company still work regardless of whether our lights are off. You'd need a full-scale societal shift in attitudes towards Sabbath for there to be any impact at all, and that's not going to be happening any time soon.

If the entire Christian populous choose to keep to essential services only on the sabbath it would significantly decrease the demand of these services like gas, electricity and food which would significantly reduce the workforce during the sabbath. This is the letter of the law so if you want to follow it then actually follow it.

.Mikha'el. · Apr 30, 2018

This is precisely my point. The entire Christian population refraining from doing these things might make a difference, but individual households here and there has no impact. We should refrain from commerence on the Sabbath because Scripture says so, but I don't believe the rationale of "considering the rest of others" holds up.

DamianWarS · Apr 30, 2018

.Mikha'el. said:
This is precisely my point. The entire Christian population refraining from doing these things might make a difference, but individual households here and there has no impact. We should refrain from commerence on the Sabbath because Scripture says so, but I don't believe the rationale of "considering the rest of others" holds up.

so as long as we all are doing it then it's ok... I'm not sure that's a great way of approaching scripture. If my actions cause someone else to work on the Sabbath and they are non-essential then how is that honoring the letter of the law of the Sabbath?

Acts2:38 · Apr 30, 2018

DamianWarS said:
Contrary to our popular mindset "church" does not honor the sabbath and it really has nothing to do with it. I'm not worried about the 4th commandment as such as I know where my sabbath rest comes from but if we are to follow the letter off the law does it not demand this extreme following such as not using electricity? Do we not insult the sabbath when we choose to follow it but only in part?

As stated before, the book of Hebrews should explain this subject in great detail for you. The old testament is only a tutor now, since after Christs death, burial, and resurrection.

The Sabbath is a Jewish law. It is part of what is called the Mosaic laws. This is something that the "Jewish Commonwealth" was to follow. A specific nations laws since they were, and I bring GREAT attention to the "were" part since this is past tense now days, God's chosen people. Now days, God's chosen are any who obey the gospel call and have been added to the church/kingdom.

The old has been "blotted out" by the new covenant Christ has made with us.

I don't really wish to say more since Hebrews is all you need to see why Sabbath (the Jewish command, not a Christian command) is no longer.

What IS a command, is assembling with fellow Christians to praise, worship, edify, etc. etc., God. Paul among the other disciples have said repeatedly and demonstrated repeatedly that the first of the week (Sunday), is when we take of the "supper" in remembrance of Christ crucified (His sacrifice for us). The is NO excuse for ANYONE to not make it to the one of two or three services on Sunday to do such. God understands if you have to meet obligations for your families lively hood, but He will not understand if you miss service due to watching the Sunday football game.

Take the military for example. God is not going to punish a Christian soldier who was ordered to tour in Iraq and fight. Or a police officer that was scheduled and obligated to work on said days. However, God will not tolerate someone who could make it but does not because fishing was more important to them.

Just read Hebrews, and it will all make sense. There are other places in the NT that speak of such things but Hebrews is probably the best one for this subject.

On a separate note, like I said before, if you are going to follow ONE OT law, then you must follow ALL of them.

Do you know of any 100% certain and provable claimed Levite priests?

You need them to go before God on your behalf when you do the animal sacrifices.

Do you think animal sacrifices are still a thing that needs to happen now days?
The book of Hebrews tells us that the "blood of bulls and goats" was not enough to be saved. This is one of the whole main purposes Christ had to die for us.

Ya, you gotta check out Hebrews. A must read for this topic.

Tayla · Apr 30, 2018

DamianWarS said:
But there is a spirit of the law here which is basically don't work and don't cause anyone else to work.

Good point. We shouldn't have servants and helpers doing our work for us. If we can't do it ourselves, it shouldn't get done.

1213 · Apr 30, 2018

DamianWarS said:
... What should we do? Go on pretending we follow the Sabbath? Actually follow the letter of the law, even on these high levels, and risk estranging ourselves from our mission, or follow Jesus and gain our sabbath rest through him?

I recommend to follow the spirit of the law. It doesn’t forbid to do good. But it would be wise not to work. Helping others is not a work.

It is also good to notice, guards had to work on shabbat day:

He commanded them, saying, This is the thing that you shall do: a third part of you, who come in on the Sabbath, shall be keepers of the watch of the king's house;
2 Kings 11:5

And Jesus said:

He answered them, "Which of you, if your son or an ox fell into a well, wouldn't immediately pull him out on a Sabbath day?" They couldn't answer him regarding these things.
Luke 14:5-6

I think that is referring to this:

Don't withhold good from those to whom it is due, When it is in the power of your hand to do it. Don't say to your neighbor, "Go, and come again, Tomorrow I will give it to you," When you have it by you.
Pro. 3:27-28

DamianWarS · Apr 30, 2018

1213 said:
I recommend to follow the spirit of the law. It doesn’t forbid to do good. But it would be wise not to work. Helping others is not a work.

It is also good to notice, guards had to work on shabbat day:

He commanded them, saying, This is the thing that you shall do: a third part of you, who come in on the Sabbath, shall be keepers of the watch of the king's house;
2 Kings 11:5

And Jesus said:

He answered them, "Which of you, if your son or an ox fell into a well, wouldn't immediately pull him out on a Sabbath day?" They couldn't answer him regarding these things.
Luke 14:5-6

I think that is referring to this:

Don't withhold good from those to whom it is due, When it is in the power of your hand to do it. Don't say to your neighbor, "Go, and come again, Tomorrow I will give it to you," When you have it by you.
Pro. 3:27-28

the spirit of the law (of the Sabbath) is to not work and not cause work. There are exceptions that are deemed essential but otherwise do what you can to not work or cause others to work. I myself don't follow the sabbath according to the law but for those who do is it not better to do whatever you can to prevent others to work on the Sabbath based on your own consumption? Is the Sabbath kept when we ourselves don't work but continue a workforce dependant consumption in the exact same way? Ex 35:3 prohibits lighting a fire during the sabbath so this idea of not using electricity doesn't seem far from the original spirit of the law. There are those in Orthodox Judaism that do in fact prohibit electricity on the sabbath so again this isn't anything new.

It seems to me that the Christian who tries to keep the sabbath typically doesn't work and then goes to church (assuming they believe in a sunday sabbath) and they feel they have done it. This is not keeping the sabbath according to the law and these people are only following a tradition that is themed after keeping the sabbath but it in itself is incomplete to keep the sabbath. They don't care and will continue to do it the same way because the value is actually not keeping the sabbath but instead keeping a tradition.

DamianWarS · Apr 30, 2018

jesus316 said:
Good point. We shouldn't have servants and helpers doing our work for us. If we can't do it ourselves, it shouldn't get done.

would you permit yourself to work at a power plant on the sabbath? like you said, if you can't do it yourself then it shouldn't get done. We can't stop others from working and because everyone uses electricity people are working so the answer is to stop using electricity. If you are committed to keep the sabbath then saying "I'm only 1" is a poor excuse to not do what it takes to keep the sabbath.

1213 · May 1, 2018

DamianWarS said:
… I myself don't follow the sabbath according to the law but for those who do is it not better to do whatever you can to prevent others to work on the Sabbath based on your own consumption?

I think it would be good not to cause anyone else work on Shabbat day.

DamianWarS said:
… Ex 35:3 prohibits lighting a fire during the sabbath so this idea of not using electricity doesn't seem far from the original spirit of the law...

Lighting a fire required work. Using electricity doesn’t necessary require work.

DamianWarS · May 1, 2018

1213 said:
Lighting a fire required work. Using electricity doesn’t necessary require work.

electricity isn't magic, someone is working to produce that electricity. When we use non-essential electricity on the Sabbath we immediately subscribe to a system of work that defeats the letter of the law.

but I'm not suggesting we go to these lengths but rather exposing what it really takes to honor the letter of the law. We should concentrate our time looking to Jesus rather than the letter of the law, because the latter is just too exhausting and in the end Jesus still does the heavy lifting.

1213 · May 2, 2018

DamianWarS said:
electricity isn't magic, someone is working to produce that electricity...

I just want to say that electricity can also be available without someone working on Shabbat day. But commonly it is not so.

DamianWarS · May 3, 2018

1213 said:
I just want to say that electricity can also be available without someone working on Shabbat day. But commonly it is not so.

If it's on the power grid I think it's safe to assume there is a workforce behind that power. Depends where you live you can pay for green energy like through wind turbines and that sort of thing. They don't require the same manpower but if they don't have a "keep the sabbath" policy then consuming that power would still cause others to work. Alternative power sources like personal wind turbines or solar could be viable options.... Of course a viable option is also just to follow Christ and not worry about keeping the letter of the law... wouldn't that be crazy

is causing non-essential work breaking the sabbath

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