SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

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justbyfaith

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Now unto him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to PRESENT YOU FAULTLESS before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 1:24

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and THERE IS NONE OCCASION OF STUMBLING IN HIM. 1 John 2:10.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, YE SHALL NEVER FALL: 2 Peter 1:10.
 
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justbyfaith

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But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another; and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN. 1 John 1:7.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (from sin--Matthew 1:21) hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God even our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, THAT HE MIGHT REDEEM US FROM ALL INIQUITY and PURIFY UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:11-14.

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY. Matthew 7:23.
 
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justbyfaith

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Then explain HOW it is. I don't believe your claim. Rom 3:9 is a clear statement of mankind. The contexts are DIFFERENT in the verses.


Yes, there is deliverance from sin. Of course there is.

But ONLY WHEN the believer is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by His means (Gal 5:16), which results in NOT fulfilling the lusts of th flesh.

But...when the believer either grieves (Eph 4:30) or quenches (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they are NOT walking in any kind of victory.


The actual and REAL "radical change" is being born again spiritually, and our human spirit being REGENERATED. But that cannot be seen. It's spiritual, not physical.

To claim that there will a visibly radical change is false, and NOT supported by Scripture.

If it were true, you'd have quoted the verses by now. But all you've got is hyperbole and exaggeration to make your points.

I stand on what the Bible says, and the commands for holy living PROVES that behavior changes ARE NOT GUARANTEED OR AUTOMATIC.


Please cite/quote any verse that says this.

1 John 1:8 and 10 say otherwise.
 
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justbyfaith

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Ezekiel 36:25-26 says, Then will I sprinkle clean water on you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

This is speaking of the new birth, agree or disagree?

Now verse 27 speaks of the result of what I think we would both have to agree is the new birth: And I will put my spirit within you (the new birth), and CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (the result of the new birth).

Therefore GOD CAUSES US TO WALK IN HIS STATUTES AND JUDGMENTS AS THE RESULT OF THE NEW BIRTH. It is as plain as day. The only reason why someone might reject this testimony that I can think of, might be what is spoken of in Hebrews 3:12-15, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, and/or 1 John 4:5-6.

In 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, it speaks of the fact that we have weapons of warfare by which we can demolish arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. So I am going to pray that the Holy Spirit convinces you of the truth, as you are taking an argument that you have derived from scripture (i.e. THERE ARE COMMANDMENTS and therefore the new birth does not produce obedience to them) in an attempt to nullify the truth of a particular scripture, above quoted (Ezekiel 36:25-27).
 
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justbyfaith

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I contend that a living and saving faith will produce a change in behaviour. By faith, we receive the love of God, shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:1-5). Real love is never in word only, but always in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18). Faith without works is dead; it cannot save. This is not to say that a deathbed conversion with no works following because of death will not save. But a living and saving faith will produce good works if given the opportunity. If the opportunity presents itself and the person disobeys, and does not do the foreordained work, that is the sign of a dead, unsalvational faith, that is not of the heart but only a mental assent to the doctrines of the faith. The person knows the Bible and believes that he believes and is going to heaven, but because the faith is not unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), a confession of Jesus as Lord would not be a true confession and therefore unsalvational, as to confess is to agree with God; so to mouth the words "Jesus is Lord," if He is not really your Lord (see Luke 6:46) is not a true confession: therefore a living and saving faith is UNTO (practical--1 John 3:7) RIGHTEOUSNESS.
 
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justbyfaith

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The fact that you "don't believe my claim" indicates that you don't understand the hermeneutical principle found in 1 Corinthians 2:13 kjv. Romans 3:9 is indeed interpreted by 1 Corinthians 10:32, as topically it is the same context.

As there are two types of contexts for scripture, immediate and topical. For example, the immediate context of 2 Corinthians 9:6 is financial seeds: however it can be related topically to spiritual seeds by comparing to Luke 8:11, as the principle of 2 Corinthians 9:6 applies not only to monetary giving but also to the seed of the word of God: if I sow the word of God sparingly I will also reap salvation of souls sparingly; but if I sow more bountifully I will also reap more bountifully.
 
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justbyfaith

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For the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12.

I find that those people who want to iive sinful lifestyles gravitate toward and hold onto passages that would seem to tell them that they can live that way and still be saved (see Jude 1:4 NIV and 2 Peter 3:16); while those who have actual good consciences and desire to live holy before God gravitate towards passages that serve as promises by which we can become partakers of the divine nature and also escape the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:3-4).
 
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justbyfaith

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If a person grieves the Holy Spirit, they are in danger of losing the salvation that they seem to and think they have, see Hebrews 3:12-15, Luke 8:18. Sin is deceitful, and it is possible to depart from the living God because of an evil heart of unbelief. I unequivocably reject the idea that someone can depart from the living God and still be saved.

Now we know that the unregenerated heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). But that God is able to give you a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27), that is by definition an honest and good heart (Luke 8:15).

Therefore, if someone seems to be a Christian, and departs from the faith because of an evil heart of unbelief, it can only be because they were merely giving lip service to following Christ and yet did not have a regenerated heart.
 
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justbyfaith

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Seals can be broken. It's not easy for the seal of the Spirit to be broken if it is even possible; but in the natural it's been done before. So I would never presume that I can live a sinful lifestyle and still be saved because of Ephesians 1:13-14; because Romans 11:20-22 and Hebrews 11:29 teach us that highminded confidence is actually presumption, not faith. We are to be confident in our faith (Philippians 1:6), but let us be certain that what we have is faith and not presumption. Try to go through the Red Sea on faith and you will pass through to the other side if your faith is genuine, living, and saving; but if you assay to go through because someone else did or because you are relying on a promise that doesn't apply to you, that is presumption and you will be drowned.
 
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justbyfaith

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The eternal torment spoken of in Revelation 14:7-11 cannot be referring to the lake of fire because it is in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb, if anyone will actually read the passage. It cannot be the lake of fire because Jesus is there. We will see all of our loved ones in heaven who took the mark but we will not even be aware that they are in torments; because they never received the Lord and therefore their perception of His presence will be different than ours. Although it does say that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in the furnace of fire so I would say that there are many who will opt out of staying in His presence on their day of judgment and we will not see them in heaven lest we perceive their suffering. It is also possible that God in His Omnipotence will hide it from our eyes and ears, the fact that they will be suffering.
 
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justbyfaith

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In Matthew 5:48, in order to be consistent in translating perfect as "mature", it would have to be translated thus: Be ye therefore mature, even as your Father which is in heaven is mature.

But our Father in heaven is not mature, He is perfect! The word "mature" has in its connotation that there was a time when immaturity was the rule: someone who is truly mature was at one time immature and grew into maturity through the process of growing up. And this cannot be referring to our heavenly Father, now, can it?

Therefore we must not change this scripture to make it fit what we want to believe but take it as it is given to us in the King James: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is impossible apart from the work of Christ. But the Bible clearly states in Hebrews 10:14 kjv (and a few others): For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. This also being evidenced by a comparison of 1 John 3:6 to 1 John 2:17. And he that doeth righteousness is righteous, EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. 1 John 3:7.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Actually James 2 is a clear indication of seeing the Spirit thru the actions of believers.
There is nothing in the book of James about "seeing the Spirit" through actions.

James' point was about whether others can see one's faith through actions.

Jesus also said you can identify a person by their actions.
No He didn't. He said false teachers are revealed by their actions.

“Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
Before we continue in James 2, I need to correct your quote marks. Yeah, yeah, I know that most translations have it as you do. But words prove differently.

So, this "someone" says this: some have faith, and others have deeds. OK. The next sentence is a question: How can YOU show ME your faith if you don't have deeds? So the "ME" in this sentence refers back to this "someone".

We know this from the very next statement: I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Consider this someone's opening statement: some have faith and others have deeds.

And this someone now admits that he also has faith but he also has deeds.

His challenge is towards those believers who have faith but are not showing it by deeds or actions.

And guess what: James then gives us a perfect example of just such a believer in the next 2 verses:
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

Where is the person's deeds here? No where. Lip service only. But not in saving faith, but in lifestyle.

We see this same principle in 1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

This is exactly the same principle in James 2:15,16. So the hypocrite in James 2:15,16 is a believer, not an unbeliever.

If it is impossible for a believer to commit the sin of James 2:15,16, then John would never have had to write 1 Jn 3:18. It simply wouldn't be necessary to say that.

You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone. Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18-25‬
Just know that v.19 has nothing to do with "saving faith" as so many claim and try to show that demons believe but aren't saved.

What the demons believe in v.19 is that "God is One", or what's called monotheism.

And they believe that, not from unseen faith, but because they actually experienced God. They SAW Him, so they know He is One.
 
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FreeGrace2

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And of course, you are preaching to the choir; because I don't believe in loss of salvation.
Actually, you do, by all you've explained and posted. You've claimed that one must continue to believe in order to be saved.

Yet, Jesus said clearly that those who believe HAVE (as in POSSESS) eternal life.
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:47.

Then in 10:28 Jesus gave us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life:
He is the CAUSE of having eternal life by His statement, "I give them eternal life".
Never perishing is the EFFECT of having eternal life by His statement, "and they shall never perish."

So your claim that one must continue to believe is false.

If it was true, Jesus WOULD HAVE HAD TO SAY this:
"I give them eternal life, and IF THEY CONTINUE TO BELIEVE, they shall never perish."

But we all know He never said that. In fact, between being given eternal life, and never perishing are NO CONDITIONS placed on recipients. Maybe you hadn't considered that.

Those who are sealed are given the INFLUENCE of the Holy Spirit, which would keep them from ever losing faith.
Except there are no verses that say this. And the sealing refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The influence of the Spirit only occurs when the believer is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18, a command) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16), in order to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

When the believer is grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, does that sound like being influenced by the Spirit.

I should say not.

But if they ever did, we know that salvation is by grace through faith. So if you take faith out of the equation, the conduit by which we receive grace and salvation is taken away, and thus grace and salvation, hypothetically, would also be taken away.
Well, I do agree with you here. Your view is only a hypothesis. It's sure not fact, or what Jesus said in John 10:28 would be FALSE.

Are you prepared to state that what Jesus said in that verse is FALSE?

Hypothetically, because faith cannot be taken away from someone who has a living and saving faith
Well, you've got another verse that makes a statement of Jesus to be FALSE!!
Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Please don't bother trying to explain this away by some mumbo jumbo about this not being actual saving faith. It's the SAME WORD used for others who have believed for salvation.
 
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There is nothing in the book of James about "seeing the Spirit" through actions.

James' point was about whether others can see one's faith through actions.


No He didn't. He said false teachers are revealed by their actions.


Before we continue in James 2, I need to correct your quote marks. Yeah, yeah, I know that most translations have it as you do. But words prove differently.

So, this "someone" says this: some have faith, and others have deeds. OK. The next sentence is a question: How can YOU show ME your faith if you don't have deeds? So the "ME" in this sentence refers back to this "someone".

We know this from the very next statement: I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Consider this someone's opening statement: some have faith and others have deeds.

And this someone now admits that he also has faith but he also has deeds.

His challenge is towards those believers who have faith but are not showing it by deeds or actions.

And guess what: James then gives us a perfect example of just such a believer in the next 2 verses:
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

Where is the person's deeds here? No where. Lip service only. But not in saving faith, but in lifestyle.

We see this same principle in 1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

This is exactly the same principle in James 2:15,16. So the hypocrite in James 2:15,16 is a believer, not an unbeliever.

If it is impossible for a believer to commit the sin of James 2:15,16, then John would never have had to write 1 Jn 3:18. It simply wouldn't be necessary to say that.


Just know that v.19 has nothing to do with "saving faith" as so many claim and try to show that demons believe but aren't saved.

What the demons believe in v.19 is that "God is One", or what's called monotheism.

And they believe that, not from unseen faith, but because they actually experienced God. They SAW Him, so they know He is One.

Of course you don’t see it my friend. You are blinded by your will to make your doctrine of OSAS true. You refute every post I make and every scripture I quote. Yet the first century church fathers didn’t teach OSAS.
 
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FreeGrace2

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1 John 1:8, If we say that we have (this refers to possession, not practice) no (indwelling) sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10, If we say that we have not sinned (this refers only to past committing of sin), we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Quite creative in this attempt to explain away these 2 verses.

v.8 is a clear statement of the FACT that we still sin. Your 'possession' vs 'practice' falls flat.

This cannot be referring to pesent and future practice of sin. 1 John 3:6 says, Whosoever abideth in him SINNETH NOT: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Since abiding speaks of intimacy or fellowship (back to ch 1:3,6,7), John was teaching that when we are IN fellowship, we are walking IN the light and cannot sin.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Then explain HOW it is. I don't believe your claim. Rom 3:9 is a clear statement of mankind. The contexts are DIFFERENT in the verses.
I have already done so.
Why would I ask again if you already did?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Now unto him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to PRESENT YOU FAULTLESS before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 1:24
Yes, God IS able to keep the believer from falling.

But, that believer MUST be filled with the Spirit, and walking by His means. And he MUST NOT be grieving or quenching the Spirit.

That's how.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I contend that a living and saving faith will produce a change in behaviour.
And I contend that there are NO verses that teach this. In fact, there are many verses that are commands for believers to live holy lives. Because it is not automatic nor guaranteed.
 
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