Copperhead

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I believe all prophecy given about the near future of Isreal and Rome was fulfilled in AD 70 by the Roman soldiers.

Who was the Roman who set up the abomination of desolation in the temple that Yeshua said would happen like Daniel described? And what evidence is there that a Roman confirmed a covenant and broke it in the middle like Daniel said in the same passage? What evidence is there that Romans were ever in the Temple at any point in any substantial way prior to its destruction in 70AD?

Matthew 24:15-16 (NKJV) “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Daniel 9:27 (NKJV) Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
 
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Copperhead

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RE: the original reason for this thread. Many can make a substantial case for a pre or early removal of the righteous from the OT. For anyone to destroy the idea of a pre-trib or early trib removal of the righteous, they would have to also tackle the passages in the OT that also talk about it. It might be easy to take on the NT references to the event, but when they are taken in conjunction with many OT passages, the case becomes pretty solid for a pre or early removal of the righteous.

But then, for any position to be taken, it must be confirmed by two witnesses according to the Torah. And those witnesses are the OT and NT.

A Pre-trib postion is hinted at even in Revelation, and is only brought more into focus when one looks at the OT passages that equate to it. But then, there are over 800 references back to the OT in Revelation alone.
 
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BABerean2

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RE: the original reason for this thread. Many can make a substantial case for a pre or early removal of the righteous from the OT. For anyone to destroy the idea of a pre-trib or early trib removal of the righteous, they would have to also tackle the passages in the OT that also talk about it. It might be easy to take on the NT references to the event, but when they are taken in conjunction with many OT passages, the case becomes pretty solid for a pre or early removal of the righteous.

But then, for any position to be taken, it must be confirmed by two witnesses according to the Torah. And those witnesses are the OT and NT.

A Pre-trib postion is hinted at even in Revelation, and is only brought more into focus when one looks at the OT passages that equate to it. But then, there are over 800 references back to the OT in Revelation alone.

The Pretrib doctrine is destroyed by one of many verses which must be ignored to make it work.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, completely destroys the Two Peoples of God doctrine.
Without a Two Peoples of God doctrine, the Pretrib removal of the Church crumbles to pieces.

We find those under the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.

Christ "descends" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and there is no trip back to heaven in the passage.


The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

A description of the event is found at the end of chapter 4 and the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5 on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief". This same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15-16, which are Second Coming passages.

.
 
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Copperhead

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Not if one also looks at Ezekiel, which came not only after Jeremiah in the OT, but in actual dating. Specifically Ezekiel 37 which precedes the eschatological events of Ezekiel 38/39 which seem to be looming on the horizon.

And when we combine the prophecy of Ezekiel 4 along with the prescription of punishment laid out in Leviticus 26, it muddies the waters further for those who would dismiss modern Israel. Ezekiel might be considered one of the "minor" prophets, but his writing is loaded for bear. And the combination of Ezekiel 4 with Leviticus 26 is very eye opening regarding modern Israel. This was the foundation for David ben Gurion's address announcing the birth of Israel in 1948.

And then we have another one of those "minor" prophets, Hosea. He wrote that the Messiah would not return until the nation acknowledged it's sin, singular, which is the rejection of the Messiah. See Hosea 5:15 - 6:2. For one to return to His place, He had to have left it. That is clearly a reference to the Messiah.

Yeshua was referring to Hosea when He stated:

Matthew 23:38-39 (NKJV) See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

For Israel leadership to acknowledge the national offense of rejecting Yeshua, there has to be a national leadership, hence a national Israel, to petition for His return. Ezekiel and Hosea foretold it being a reality. Isaiah also said the Israel would be restored... a second time.
 
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Tayla

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I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
-John 17:15

I'm a pre trib believer, but I can't help but be bothered by this verse. does this prove posttribulation, or is there a way around this? I'd like some answers
Of course it disproves the pretrib rapture. The only way around it is to remove it from the Bible.
 
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Copperhead

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Of course it disproves the pretrib rapture. The only way around it is to remove it from the Bible.

Ok, I'll bite. Specifically how does one verse in that context take out all the OT references to a removal of the righteous before or early in the GT? If you are certain that this verse disproves a pre-trib removal of the righteous, then you must be familiar with all the OT references to it, so I do not need to take up space by posting them here.
 
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BABerean2

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For Israel leadership to acknowledge the national offense of rejecting Yeshua, there has to be a national leadership, hence a national Israel, to petition for His return. Ezekiel and Hosea foretold it being a reality. Isaiah also said the Israel would be restored... a second time.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Does Revelation 11:8 sound like a city which has accepted Christ?


The Israel that would be restored is found below.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (GW)



.
 
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Tayla

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Ok, I'll bite. Specifically how does one verse in that context take out all the OT references to a removal of the righteous before or early in the GT? If you are certain that this verse disproves a pre-trib removal of the righteous, then you must be familiar with all the OT references to it, so I do not need to take up space by posting them here.
All the verses are true. Yes, I am very familiar with them all. In my view, the only solution is that all the verses used for the rapture actually refer to the second coming of Christ.
 
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Copperhead

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All the verses are true. Yes, I am very familiar with them all. In my view, the only solution is that all the verses used for the rapture actually refer to the second coming of Christ.

So Isaiah 66:7-8 combined with Jeremiah 30:7 when Revelation 12:5 (combined with Revelation 2:26-27) is also thrown in is discounted by John 17:15?

And David was wrong when he wrote Psalms 27:5?

And we all know that Job's "friends" thought he was off his rocker. That must explain how he goofed when he wrote Job 14:13-15 Well, it is the oldest book in the Bible. There is no way he could have been writing anything down that might correspond to end times.

So then, John 14:2 when viewed in the context of Isaiah 26:19-21 is also negated? Wow. Then that would mean Yeshua was lying to us. But I thought that the Eternal One could not lie? (Numbers 23:19)
 
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Copperhead

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As for Israel being a nation in our time, Ezekiel 4 and Leviticus 26 come into play.

Ezekiel was to lie on both sides for a total period of 430 days, each day representing a year. It is expressed this is how long the Hebrew people would bear their iniquity.

70 of those years were ticked off in the Babylonian captivity. That left 360 years. Since only a remnant returned to the land, the majority of the Hebrews remained in rebellion to the Lord by choosing to stay in the foreign land. Leviticus 26 states that if they remained in rebellion, their punishment would be multiplied 7 times.

7 x 360 is 2520 years. 2520 years on the 360 day lunar year Hebrew calendar is 907200 days. That many days, placed in light of the 365.25 day solar calendar we are familiar with is 2483.77 years.

And those years would start at the decree of Cyrus to return to the land to rebuild the Temple. That occurred in roughly the early fall 536BC. -536 plus 2483.77 years (remember, there is no "zero" year between BC and AD, so one has to add a year to the calculation) is late Spring 1948. Modern Israel became a nation in May 1948.

Israel was never an independent nation from the time of the nation being destroyed and taken into captivity in Babylon until 1948. The time of the return from Babylon clear thru the British control, Israel was never independent. The land was ruled by Babylon, Persia, Greece, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, and Britain. Only after the period of their bearing the iniquity of their sin did they become an independent nation again.

I am not sure it can get much clearer than that. No wild eyed twisting of scripture was needed. Just the simple text as it was written combined with some elementary math.

Some like to argue that those in modern Israel are not descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But 80% of the Hebrew inhabitants when Israel became a nation in 1948 were Sabras, or long time generational Hebrews. Throughout the time from Rome till 1948, there was always a Hebrew remnant in the land. Major Hebrew populations were in Jaffa, Jerusalem, Gaza, Ashkelon, Caesarea, Safed, and many other locations throughout the land. During the Crusades, the Crusaders had a field day killing Hebrews in the land. In one event, 20,000 Hebrews were rounded up into the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem and burned alive while the Crusaders marched around singing "Christ We Adore Thee".

Only after Israel became a nation was there a massive influx of Jews from throughout the world. As to whether they are true Hebrews or not, I leave that up to the Lord. Not sure, given the history of how Hebrews have been treated, why anyone would want to claim to be Hebrew if they really aren't. But they do. It doesn't negate the fact that 80% of the Hebrews in the land when modern Israel was formed were true generational Hebrews.
 
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So Isaiah 66:7-8 combined with Jeremiah 30:7 when Revelation 12:5 (combined with Revelation 2:26-27) is also thrown in is discounted by John 17:15?

And David was wrong when he wrote Psalms 27:5?

And we all know that Job's "friends" thought he was off his rocker. That must explain how he goofed when he wrote Job 14:13-15 Well, it is the oldest book in the Bible. There is no way he could have been writing anything down that might correspond to end times.

So then, John 14:2 when viewed in the context of Isaiah 26:19-21 is also negated? Wow. Then that would mean Yeshua was lying to us. But I thought that the Eternal One could not lie? (Numbers 23:19)
Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Where is a pretribulation rapture in the above verses or even in the entire chapter?

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

To be saved out of something one must first be in it.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

I am very much aware of the arguments used to make the man child the church instead of Christ Himself, if that be true where did the “ remnant of her seed” and the “saints” of Revelation 12:17 & 13:7 & 10 come from? To just claim they must have been saved after the rapture would require some scriptural evidence to be valid as an argument.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Combine with Revelation 19:15

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The verse is clear. A list of verses presented to attempt to nullify it must be misinterpreted or this verse is not true. Numbers 23:19

Jesus prayed this prayer for all that would believe on Him in the future.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Psalm 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

David was dead thousands of years before the time of trouble, known as the Great Tribulation. David’s soul is now in heaven, he has no need to be hid from the great tribulation.

Job 13:13 Hold your peace, let me alone, that I may speak, and let come on me what will.

14 Wherefore do I take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in mine hand?

15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

Job expected to be resurrected in the latter day when his redeemer shall stand upon the earth. Not at some pre-trib resurrection.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:



John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus comes, He stays. No mention of a return trip to heaven for a brief stay in temporary housing in heaven.

The eternal abode He has created for us is described in detail in Revelation 21 and it is brought down to earth from heaven.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

No mention of leaving this earth and going to heaven. If the church is in heaven what need is there to be hiding behind closed doors while judgment is handed out on this earth. When Christ comes to judge this earth can He not protect His own? Can He not focus His wrath where it belongs?

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Amen!
 
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Copperhead

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Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

To be saved out of something one must first be in it.

Indeed! Jacob is Israel. Genesis 32:28

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Where is a pretribulation rapture in the above verses or even in the entire chapter?

Did you not also read Revelation 12:5 along with this as I posted it? The man child is not only a reference to the Messiah, but also the body of Messiah, the church. And Revelation 2:26-27 clarifies 12:5 further.

And if you notice, Israel delivers BEFORE she travails.


Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

No mention of leaving this earth and going to heaven. If the church is in heaven what need is there to be hiding behind closed doors while judgment is handed out on this earth. When Christ comes to judge this earth can He not protect His own? Can He not focus His wrath where it belongs?

There is if you look at John 14:2. The Chambers in the Isaiah passage is the same Hebrew word meaning as the Greek for Mansions in John. And Yeshua isn't preparing these abodes on earth, but in His Father's house. So where would His Father's house be? The Isaiah passage clearly is saying the the people will be in those abodes prior to the the Lord punishing the earth. And that period begins at the breaking of the first seal. I know that some think it is after the seals, but it clearly states in Revelation that the Lamb is breaking the seals which by default implies that the events of the seals would not happen unless He opened those seals. So the seals events are directed by the Lord and thus the beginning of His punishment on the world.

Now back to the main point of this thread......

Look, I know that grammar school reading comprehension is tough for some people, and it is easy to forget the basics of that. The passage in John 17:15 is speaking of the Disciples, as the "them" in that sentence is referring the "them" that has been the object up to that point. the passage in John 17:20-21 is a complete sentence. Yeshua changes the object that He is praying for and is clearly stating He is praying for all those who believe, but read the rest of the sentence.... that they would be as one just as Yeshua and the Father are one. There is the action and the object of that action contained within the complete sentence. It doesn't have anything to do with what Yeshua was praying that the disciples not be taken which was 4 sentences earlier. It does not point to an object elsewhere earlier in the text and it is grammatically incorrect to suggest that it does.

But hey, I do appreciate all those who think so. It caused me to look closer at the text to see. And now I am more convinced than ever that they are not equated. Just using simple rules of grammar and reading comprehension.
 
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Micah888

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The verse is not eschatological. Jesus was talking about His earthly disciples at the time. Obviously, they could not have been extracted, otherwise the whole plan of spreading the gospel would be nullified. So Jesus' prayer was that the enemy would leave them alone as they went about evangelizing. (I'm a pre-trib too.)
Exactly. That verse is about leaving believers on earth UNTIL the Rapture. There is a job to be done and the Church has received a mandate to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature.
 
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There is if you look at John 14:2. The Chambers in the Isaiah passage is the same Hebrew word meaning as the Greek for Mansions in John. And Yeshua isn't preparing these abodes on earth, but in His Father's house. So where would His Father's house be? The Isaiah passage clearly is saying the the people will be in those abodes prior to the the Lord punishing the earth. And that period begins at the breaking of the first seal. I know that some think it is after the seals, but it clearly states in Revelation that the Lamb is breaking the seals which by default implies that the events of the seals would not happen unless He opened those seals. So the seals events are directed by the Lord and thus the beginning of His punishment on the world.

Let’s look at the whole context of John 14 and use our reading skills.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions (3438): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Mansions same word as abode in verese 23.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus was on this earth when He spoke these words. When He comes again he will be here on this earth and it is on this earth we will be with Him. Four times Jesus referred to going away in this chapter. Four times in this chapter Jesus referred to coming again. Not one time did Jesus refer to going to heaven coming back to earth and then returning to heaven with us, that is assumed by many but nowhere stated in the text.

When Jesus comes again He stays , no scripture says He goes back to heaven with us for a short stay and then returns again. That is all assumed to support the pre-trib doctrine. When Jesus returns we rule and reign with Him on this earth not in heaven . Revelation 2:25-26, Revelation 12:5, Revelation 19:15.

It is assumed by the pre-tib camp that because Jesus is preparing “mansions, abodes” in heaven that is where we will reside in them but that is nowhere stated in the text. We are clearly told of a “prepared “ in heaven city in which we will reside brought down from heaven to the new earth. Those written in the Lamb’s book of life will enter into it. Revelation 21:27.

Jesus has not spent 2000 years building temporary housing in which we will hide out in for 3 ½ years then abandon to come to earth and live for eternity.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode (3438) with him.

This abode is not in heaven.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Show us just one clearly stated scripture that says when Jesus comes again He goes back to heaven with us.
 
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Copperhead

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Your emphasis on mansions meaning abodes is the very same one I made. Not sure why you felt the need to put the words in bold as if it is making a point countering mine. We agree on the word meaning.

So then... are the "chambers" (abodes) in Isaiah 26 then only earthly in a gnostic sort of way as you imply? Notice in both Isaiah and John, it is a plural use of the word. If there is one Messiah, how can there be multiple abodes with Him? That makes no sense. Isaiah and John, to use your reasoning on this, are both implying that there are multiple Messiahs we will have multiple abodes with. Many of us know there are not multiple Messiah's, so there is only one. Thus, there is only one... singular... abode if that is what is meant by the passage in John. But John, like Isaiah uses the plural use of the word.

You fail to see the words themselves you are emphasizing. The words are used in a plural sense not a singular. The object then has to be plural. The plain meaning of the passage in John is that Yeshua is preparing multiple abodes for us that He will then come and gather us to be where He is. The passage in Isaiah clarifies the timing of that. Before the coming cataclysmic events to take place on the earth.
 
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I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
-John 17:15

I'm a pre trib believer, but I can't help but be bothered by this verse. does this prove posttribulation, or is there a way around this? I'd like some answers

The answer is very simple - that passage is not about you.

What did He tell them elsewhere?

That they would not make it past the cities of Israel before His return.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

And what did He tell them about what would then continue only after His return?

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

In other words, the Pre-Trib Rapture held by Acts 2 Dispensationalism is full of contradictions - because although it asserts there is a distinction between Israel and the Body, it then contradicts that distinction by confusing what was taught to the Twelve and their converts (fellow Israelites) with what was later revealed through the Apostle Paul to formerly lost Jews and Gentiles in the Body (which began after Israel's committing the unpardonable sin in Acts 7, that they were warned against in Matthew 12).

It is the Twelve and their converts who were expected to endure through the Day of the Lord in His Wrath.

But what did the Lord later reveal, after Israel was concluded "under sin" (in rebellion) with the Gentiles, per Romans 3?

He revealed a delay in His coming short work in His Wrath upon the Earth...

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Sometime after which said Wrath will fall...

Romans 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

In other words, only Paul teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Why?

What makes it possible for the Body?

Because...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

In contrast, Israel's Believing Remnant's deliverance is after said wrath to come...

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The key to all these distinctions?

That which concerns Israel was Prophesied.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

In contrast, that which concerns the Body was not revealed until Paul.
Romans 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

He has just asserted that three things establish or firmly ground the Body member in a well rounded understanding of the things of God - 1) that gospel which he preached; 2 - the revelation of that mystery concerning the Body that was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest; and 3 - the Scriptures of the prophets (concerning Israel, or that which was Prophesied).

Exactly the three issues he went over in Romans.

Acts 17:11, 12.
 
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Postvieww

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Your emphasis on mansions meaning abodes is the very same one I made. Not sure why you felt the need to put the words in bold as if it is making a point countering mine. We agree on the word meaning.

Glad we agree, but my bold type alone was no rebuttal. You did use the word abodes in your post but the point I got was you equating “mansions” or “abodes with “chambers” from Isaiah. My point was different abodes in verse 23 did not relate to a stay in heaven.

So then... are the "chambers" (abodes) in Isaiah 26 then only earthly in a gnostic sort of way as you imply? Notice in both Isaiah and John, it is a plural use of the word. If there is one Messiah, how can there be multiple abodes with Him? That makes no sense. Isaiah and John, to use your reasoning on this, are both implying that there are multiple Messiahs we will have multiple abodes with. Many of us know there are not multiple Messiah's, so there is only one. Thus, there is only one... singular... abode if that is what is meant by the passage in John. But John, like Isaiah uses the plural use of the word.

I really don’t know where you got this multiple Messiahs idea but you are ignoring the main thrust of my point. That is using Isaiah 26 to define what Jesus was saying in Johns gospel. Nowhere in the text does Jesus say, hint or imply that He is coming again just to turn around and go back with us then return again. IMHO that is read into the text by the pre-trib camp. I showed where a place of “abode” is prepared in heaven and brought down to the new earth from heaven where we will enter. Revelation 21. You ignore that to focus on your interpretation of Isaiah. What Isaiah had to say is important and relevant but it does not nullify what Jesus, Paul or John said. Since there seems to be a conflict I would suggest considering the pre-trib interpretation just possibly might be incorrect here.

Many passages clearly state Jesus returned to heaven and will return again, but not one passage says He will return to earth go back to heaven and return again. That can only be accomplished by reading into text what is not there.

Sorry my friend I agreed with you on this for over 30 years. I believed what I was told about it by preachers and authors. I just cannot find a pre-trib resurrection in scripture without interpreting it into existence.


You fail to see the words themselves you are emphasizing. The words are used in a plural sense not a singular. The object then has to be plural. The plain meaning of the passage in John is that Yeshua is preparing multiple abodes for us that He will then come and gather us to be where He is. The passage in Isaiah clarifies the timing of that. Before the coming cataclysmic events to take place on the earth.

“Gather us to be where He is” this is the heart of our disagreement. I believe the statement you quote just as written IMHO you add to it. When He comes to gather us He is here not in heaven, you insert a return trip that is not in the text. For your interpretation to be correct the verse should say “He comes to gathers us and take us back to where He was” . Many other passages tell us what Jesus does when He comes again none of them include a return trip to heaven. He sets up shop right here on earth and that is where WE All remain.
 
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Copperhead

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The answer is very simple - that passage is not about you.

What did He tell them elsewhere?

That they would not make it past the cities of Israel before His return.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

And what did He tell them about what would then continue only after His return?

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

In other words, the Pre-Trib Rapture held by Acts 2 Dispensationalism is full of contradictions - because although it asserts there is a distinction between Israel and the Body, it then contradicts that distinction by confusing what was taught to the Twelve and their converts (fellow Israelites) with what was later revealed through the Apostle Paul to formerly lost Jews and Gentiles in the Body (which began after Israel's committing the unpardonable sin in Acts 7, that they were warned against in Matthew 12).

It is the Twelve and their converts who were expected to endure through the Day of the Lord in His Wrath.

But what did the Lord later reveal, after Israel was concluded "under sin" (in rebellion) with the Gentiles, per Romans 3?

He revealed a delay in His coming short work in His Wrath upon the Earth...

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Sometime after which said Wrath will fall...

Romans 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

In other words, only Paul teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Why?

What makes it possible for the Body?

Because...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

In contrast, Israel's Believing Remnant's deliverance is after said wrath to come...

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The key to all these distinctions?

That which concerns Israel was Prophesied.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

In contrast, that which concerns the Body was not revealed until Paul.
Romans 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

He has just asserted that three things establish or firmly ground the Body member in a well rounded understanding of the things of God - 1) that gospel which he preached; 2 - the revelation of that mystery concerning the Body that was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest; and 3 - the Scriptures of the prophets (concerning Israel, or that which was Prophesied).

Exactly the three issues he went over in Romans.

Acts 17:11, 12.

And the pre-trib bothers you how, that you would spend the time you did trying to refute it?

Is holding or not holding a particular position conditional to salvation? Is it eschatology that saves someone or placing their trust and hope in Messiah?

If you are quite confident in your position, what motivation is there that you feel the need to attack a different position? Or is it that you are unsure of your position that the only way to feel better about it is to attack another?

Just curious. I waste very little time trying to destroy opposing views. I only seem focused on testing my own position over time. In the money world, the best way to spot counterfeit money is by becoming very familiar with the real money.
 
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Danoh

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And the pre-trib bothers you how, that you would spend the time you did trying to refute it?

Is holding or not holding a particular position conditional to salvation? Is it eschatology that saves someone or placing their trust and hope in Messiah?

If you are quite confident in your position, what motivation is there that you feel the need to attack a different position? Or is it that you are unsure of your position that the only way to feel better about it is to attack another?

Just curious. I waste very little time trying to destroy opposing views. I only seem focused on testing my own position over time. In the money world, the best way to spot counterfeit money is by becoming very familiar with the real money.

Lol - that was quite the self-portrait of you reading into a thing.

I hold a Pre-Trib view and was explaining why that passage throws that poster off.

As for your notion that because a doctrine is not conditional to salvation, it is not equally important, well, you're off on that as well.

Throw out most of Romans - very little of it is salvation. Most of it is about the ever important: sanctification.

By the way, expert, the chambers are described in Ezekiel 40 - the Father's House is the Millennial Temple.

He was speaking of the Twelve's positions of spiritual authority over Israel - one Prince for each of the Twelve Tribes first established through Moses, Num. 1:44; Matt. 19:28.

Let me know if you need an update on any other of your notions.

Rom. 5:6-8.
 
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Copperhead

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Justification and sanctification are two separate items. The first is a one time and it’s done deal. The latter is a progression. And there are good people on all sides of the eschatological issues. Eschatology is on the low rung of the ladder in regards to sanctification. The fruits of the Spirit far outweigh eschatology and the vast majority of those that claim to be Christians have enough on their plate getting that.

But nonetheless, I apologize. I misread what you were saying.

Walter Martin, the original “Bible Answer Man” on radio was a solid conservative man of faith who held a mid trib view. Chuck Missler (pre-trib) and him were lifetime friends. Marv Rosenthal is a true brother in the Lord, but is the primary proponent of the pre-wrath position. About the only positions I have serious issues with are Pretorism and Amillenialism. Both have to allegorize the scripture to wild extremes to pull those ideas off.
 
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