Old Covenant -- vs -- New Covenant - and the same moral law of God in both

Micah888 · Apr 29, 2018

ac28 said:
Here's a short list I made of things typically and commonly taught in Denominational Churches as being true that are absolutely NOT true, according to scripture.

Actually some things are perfectly true, but other things in your list are false.

However since this thread is about the Old and New Covenant, you claim that "The New Covenant is [NOT] in effect for the Church today" is false. We could go into a lot of detail as to why your assertion is false, but the recorded words of Christ from Matthew 26 are sufficient:

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament [covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

So did the shed blood of Christ ratify the New Covenant and did His death usher in the New Covenant? Absolutely.

You can try and contradict what was said above but it will hold no credibility.

1stcenturylady · Apr 29, 2018

We can debate all day whether the commandments of God are the Old Covenant commandments given on Mt. Sinai, the Ten Commandments, or the New Covenant commandments of Jesus, believing on His Name and loving our neighbor, but there is a test as to what God honors. Let Him decide. Are your prayers answered? If no, then there is something wrong with your choice. If yes, then you do nothing your conscience condemns you for.

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2018

ralliann said:
You didn't get the context of two covenants.

Two covenants - two contexts, two agreements regarding the SAME Law of God that Jeremiah and his readers knew.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind"

No exegesis of Jeremiah 31 can wrench the text into "I will write an unknown law nothing like what I spoke in person at Sinai on the heart and mind".

What is more - even these non-Saturday groups agree.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

It just does not "get" any easier than that case where BOTH sides of the debate agree on that one glaringly obvious Bible detail.

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2018

Micah888 said:
Actually some things are perfectly true, but other things in your list are false.

However since this thread is about the Old and New Covenant, you claim that "The New Covenant is [NOT] in effect for the Church today" is false. We could go into a lot of detail as to why your assertion is false, but the recorded words of Christ from Matthew 26 are sufficient:

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament [covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

So did the shed blood of Christ ratify the New Covenant and did His death usher in the New Covenant? Absolutely.

You can try and contradict what was said above but it will hold no credibility.

I agree with much of that..

But consider this - in the NEW Covenant we have this (as we see in Hebrews 8)

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.

(So that is the New Birth, New Creation, New Heart, old things passed away all things become new)

And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

(So that is adoption - "to as many as received Him to them He gave the right to be called the children of God" - John 1:12)

11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.

(Spirit of Truth as the teacher - "leading in to all truth" John 16)

12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

(Forgiveness of sin - 1 John 1:9 )

Which is the "ONE Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9
Which is the "Gospel preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
And as Paul said in Hebrews 4 "The Gospel has been preached to us just as it was to them also"

In Matthew 17 - Moses AND Elijah stand with Christ "in glory" before the cross -- on the mount of transfiguration --- fully forgiven even before the cross, saved under the one-and--only Gospel preached in OT and NT.

Micah888 · Apr 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
I agree with much of that..But consider this - in the NEW Covenant we have this (as we see in Hebrews 8)...

And that quotation about the future New Covenant (as revealed in the OT) was being applied to those Hebrew Christians being addressed at that time. However, since Christ did not save just Hebrew Christians, and "tasted death for every man" those words were being applied to all Christians at that time.

At the same time, the ultimate application of those words will be to redeemed and restored Israel on earth during the Millennium and beyond, and the prophecy of Ezekiel gives us the future application.

EZEKIEL 36

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2018

Micah888 said:
And that quotation about the future New Covenant (as revealed in the OT) was being applied to those Hebrew Christians being addressed at that time. However, since Christ did not save just Hebrew Christians, and "tasted death for every man" those words were being applied to all Christians at that time.

Indeed the New Covenant is for all mankind

It is the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

1stcenturylady · Apr 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
Two covenants - two contexts, two agreements regarding the SAME Law of God that Jeremiah and his readers knew.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind"

No exegesis of Jeremiah 31 can wrench the text into "I will write an unknown law nothing like what I spoke in person at Sinai on the heart and mind".

What is more - even these non-Saturday groups agree.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

It just does not "get" any easier than that case where BOTH sides of the debate agree on that one glaringly obvious Bible detail.

How do those groups agree with you? They all worship on Sunday?

ralliann · Apr 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
Two covenants - two contexts, two agreements regarding the SAME Law of God that Jeremiah and his readers knew.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind"

No exegesis of Jeremiah 31 can wrench the text into "I will write an unknown law nothing like what I spoke in person at Sinai on the heart and mind".

What is more - even these non-Saturday groups agree.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

It just does not "get" any easier than that case where BOTH sides of the debate agree on that one glaringly obvious Bible detail.

Scott Perkins · Apr 29, 2018

Old covenant is an abomination to God, it’s Jesus Christ, that is all folks. The whole old covenant thing was just a shadow of Jesus Christ to come.

1stcenturylady · Apr 29, 2018

Scott Perkins said:
Old covenant is an abomination to God, it’s Jesus Christ, that is all folks. The whole old covenant thing was just a shadow of Jesus Christ to come.

Even though we are under the New Covenant, the 10 Commandments were holy, not an abomination. Watch out for lightening strikes!

ralliann · Apr 30, 2018

BobRyan said:
Two covenants - two contexts, two agreements regarding the SAME Law of God that Jeremiah and his readers knew.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind"

This is the law from the beginning..................
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
The just live by faith
Abel........
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Noah........
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Abraham, Sarah........
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

God tested Israel's faith.............. No different than the above examples
Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

The law of faith............................. Is not the written Mosaic code

The7thColporteur · Apr 30, 2018

ralliann said:
This is the law from the beginning..................
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
The just live by faith
Abel........
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Noah........
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Abraham, Sarah........
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

God tested Israel's faith.............. No different than the above examples
Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

The law of faith.............................

Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Righteousness = right doing = Obey God in His Law:

Psalms 119:172 KJB - My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Obedience to God, can only come through love and faith.

Thus Abel did not merely mentally ascent to the coming Lamb, but sacrificed the required lamb in type in faith and hope of the promise in Genesis 3:15.

Thus Noah did not merely mentally ascent to a coming flood, but built the Ark.

Thus Abraham did not merely mentally ascent to giving up his son, he verily placed his son upon the altar believing God was able to raise the dead.

etc, etc.

The7thColporteur · Apr 30, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Even though we are under the New Covenant, the 10 Commandments were holy, not an abomination. Watch out for lightening strikes!

You subtracted a word ["is", as in present tense] and added a word "were" [as in past tense]:

Romans 7:12 KJB - Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Only a thief will take something away, and place a counterfeit in its place, hoping no one will notice.

Ten Commandments are not the old covenant, but they are God's "My Covenant" and "His Covenant"; See Romans 3:31 KJB and see the previouosly posted:

"... [see Exodus 19:3-8 KJB, for the 'old covenant' is never, in all of scripture [KJB], the Ten Commandments [the perfect, righteousness, spiritual, holy, just and good and eternal Law of God; Psalms 19:7; Romans 9:31; Romans 7:14; James 1:25; Psalms 119:44-45; Romans 7:12; Psalms 89:34; Exodus 20:1-17, especially Exodus 20:8, “holy”, see Isaiah 58:13; 2 Peter 3:2 KJB], but was always the faulty promises of the peoples Israel after the flesh, made in agreement to do all that the LORD says. They failed. Why? Works and no Faith [Romans 9:32 KJB]. They [in general] attempted without God's strength [Revelation 12:10-12; Romans 5:6; 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB], and though they were free physically, they were still slaves spiritually, that is of the heart and mind: 'all that the LORD hath said we will do', their faulty promises, and yet they did not, for they sinned by the golden calf.

The Everlasting Covenant [New, which existed before the 'old', even from eternity, for the Father and Son clasped hands in agreement, the Holy Ghost as Witness, should [when] sin [the mystery of iniquity] arise, they would work out the plan of Redemption, thus it is “the everlasting covenant” or the covenant of life and peace, or the counsel of peace, ratified by the blood of the Son of God Himself and by the Father in Heaven, see Psalms 89:3,28,34, 105:8; Isaiah 13:12, 42:6; Malachi 2:5 [Jesus is the True Levi, meaning attached unto His Father], 3:1; John 19:30 [he finished laying the foundation, the words were unto His Father], 17:24 [the agreement in eternity past was made, Jesus kept His word, performed His vows, and now the promise from the Father was to be fulfilled]; John 3:16; John 19:28; Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 13:8; Psalms 40:7-8; Hebrews 10:7-9; Psalms 116:14-18; Ezekiel 38:23; John 17:19; John 10:18; 8:28; Psalms 110:4; Zechariah 6:13, etc., etc. for surely as the Rainbow is above God's throne, so the covenant between Father and Son, witnessed by the Holy Ghost, is eternal, KJB] is God's, “I will ...”, His Promise; more on this in detail later, as needed. The 'old covenant' is not the same as God's 'my covenant', which we establish by Faith [Romans 3:31 KJB]. They are two things, not one, which will be demonstrated in thorough detail later, as needed. God's Ten Commandments are all perfect promises, without fault, more on this later, as needed.] ..."

GodsGrace101 · Apr 30, 2018

BobRyan said:
As we all know - "old covenant" was given in fact to Adam as "Obey and Live"

But when it comes to OT Israel at Sinai -- Paul says the "Gospel was preached to THEM (Israel at Sinai) - just as it was to US also " Heb 4:1

Yet Sinai was not an "individual" covenant (and the New Covenant is) . In other words it is not as though there were 2 million sinless "individuals" at Sinai -- until they started worshiping the golden calf.

Thus it is the NEW Covenant according to Paul - the Gospel that was being given all along - but at Sinai it was given with visual aids and illustrations.

The national-covenant at Sinai is used as a "symbol" of the Old Covenant made with Adam "obey and live" because at the level of 'a nation' that is how it was framed. Only national apostasy / rebellion -- would break it. An individual who coveted on that day or any other -- would not break that covenant.

The SAME moral Law (that includes the TEN Commandments) is in both the Old and and NEW Covenant as the Bible shows and as even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson -- freely demonstrate that they too can see this glaringly obvious Bible detail.

I don't think that this particular post is "news" to very many people -- not even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith

Some will argue "The NEW Covenant was just made with the House of Israel according to the actual text - so it is not for Christians" -- those folks may be few and possibly confused so we will also address that in this thread.

Hi BR
I came upon this by chance and you've said some things above that are not 100% right.

When one refers to the old covenant, they do not mean the Adamic Covenant. What is being referred to is the Mosaic Covenant, made between God and Moses in the Sinai.

Also what you're calling the Adamic Covenant is really the Edenic Covenant. The Edenic Covenant is a conditional covenant. Adam was to obey God and be the steward of the Garden. Everything belonged to Adam, the requirement was that he was not to eat of the forbidden tree.
The blessing was eternal life.
The curse was death - spiritual and physical; separation from God and His blessings.

The Adamic covenant is a non-conditional covenant. God would bring it about without man's cooperation. The curses include those in Genesis 3:16-20, and the provision for those curses, Genesis 3:15
The first sacrifice, which I'm sure you know, is recorded in Genesis 3:21

ralliann · Apr 30, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Righteousness = right doing = Obey God in His Law:

Psalms 119:172 KJB - My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Obedience to God, can only come through love and faith.

Thus Abel did not merely mentally ascent to the coming Lamb, but sacrificed the required lamb in type in faith and hope of the promise in Genesis 3:15.

Thus Noah did not merely mentally ascent to a coming flood, but built the Ark.

Thus Abraham did not merely mentally ascent to giving up his son, he verily placed his son upon the altar believing God was able to raise the dead.

etc, etc.

Yep, my post did not deny the works of faith, rather were to highlight them. None of which were commands of the mosaic code. As is obvious ( I would think) since,,,,
Noah and Abraham were given commands which no other man were given to perform, nor were they repeated.

1stcenturylady · Apr 30, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
You subtracted a word ["is", as in present tense] and added a word "were" [as in past tense]:

Romans 7:12 KJB - Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Only a thief will take something away, and place a counterfeit in its place, hoping no one will notice.

Ten Commandments are not the old covenant, but they are God's "My Covenant" and "His Covenant"; See Romans 3:31 KJB and see the previouosly posted:

"... [see Exodus 19:3-8 KJB, for the 'old covenant' is never, in all of scripture [KJB], the Ten Commandments [the perfect, righteousness, spiritual, holy, just and good and eternal Law of God; Psalms 19:7; Romans 9:31; Romans 7:14; James 1:25; Psalms 119:44-45; Romans 7:12; Psalms 89:34; Exodus 20:1-17, especially Exodus 20:8, “holy”, see Isaiah 58:13; 2 Peter 3:2 KJB], but was always the faulty promises of the peoples Israel after the flesh, made in agreement to do all that the LORD says. They failed. Why? Works and no Faith [Romans 9:32 KJB]. They [in general] attempted without God's strength [Revelation 12:10-12; Romans 5:6; 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB], and though they were free physically, they were still slaves spiritually, that is of the heart and mind: 'all that the LORD hath said we will do', their faulty promises, and yet they did not, for they sinned by the golden calf.

The Everlasting Covenant [New, which existed before the 'old', even from eternity, for the Father and Son clasped hands in agreement, the Holy Ghost as Witness, should [when] sin [the mystery of iniquity] arise, they would work out the plan of Redemption, thus it is “the everlasting covenant” or the covenant of life and peace, or the counsel of peace, ratified by the blood of the Son of God Himself and by the Father in Heaven, see Psalms 89:3,28,34, 105:8; Isaiah 13:12, 42:6; Malachi 2:5 [Jesus is the True Levi, meaning attached unto His Father], 3:1; John 19:30 [he finished laying the foundation, the words were unto His Father], 17:24 [the agreement in eternity past was made, Jesus kept His word, performed His vows, and now the promise from the Father was to be fulfilled]; John 3:16; John 19:28; Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 13:8; Psalms 40:7-8; Hebrews 10:7-9; Psalms 116:14-18; Ezekiel 38:23; John 17:19; John 10:18; 8:28; Psalms 110:4; Zechariah 6:13, etc., etc. for surely as the Rainbow is above God's throne, so the covenant between Father and Son, witnessed by the Holy Ghost, is eternal, KJB] is God's, “I will ...”, His Promise; more on this in detail later, as needed. The 'old covenant' is not the same as God's 'my covenant', which we establish by Faith [Romans 3:31 KJB]. They are two things, not one, which will be demonstrated in thorough detail later, as needed. God's Ten Commandments are all perfect promises, without fault, more on this later, as needed.] ..."

Right. Is holy. If you don't walk in the Spirit you are still under the law. If you do walk in the Spirit you are not under the law.

BobRyan · Apr 30, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Hi BR
I came upon this by chance

Welcome to the thread.

GodsGrace101 said:
and you've said some things above that are not 100% right.

When one refers to the old covenant, they do not mean the Adamic Covenant. What is being referred to is the Mosaic Covenant, made between God and Moses in the Sinai.

Also what you're calling the Adamic Covenant is really the Edenic Covenant. The Edenic Covenant is a conditional covenant. Adam was to obey God and be the steward of the Garden. Everything belonged to Adam, the requirement was that he was not to eat of the forbidden tree.
The blessing was eternal life.
The curse was death - spiritual and physical; separation from God and His blessings.
The curses include those in Genesis 3:16-20, and the provision for those curses, Genesis 3:15
The first sacrifice, which I'm sure you know, is recorded in Genesis 3:21

===========================

Principle of "obey and live" for the "Old Covenant" the one prior to the Gospel - given to Adam and to Abraham - is found here.

==========================================

Old Covenant - "Obey and Live"

Genesis 2: 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Genesis 3:
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Lev 18:5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Jesus said
Matthew 19
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not commit adultery,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not steal,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not bear false witness,’ Exodus 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Exodus 20
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Lev 19:18

All of it from "The Law of Moses"

==================

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
"There is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9

Sinai was not an "individual" covenant (and the New Covenant is) . In other words it is not as though there were 2 million sinless "individuals" at Sinai -- until they started worshiping the golden calf.

The national-covenant at Sinai is used as a "symbol" of the Old Covenant made with Adam "obey and live" because at the level of 'a nation' that is how it was framed. Only national apostasy / rebellion -- would break it. An individual who coveted on that day or any other -- would not break that covenant.

BobRyan · Apr 30, 2018

Scott Perkins said:
Old covenant is an abomination to God,

The Old Covenant was created by God.

===============

Old Covenant - "Obey and Live"

Genesis 2: 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Genesis 3:
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Lev 18:5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Jesus said
Matthew 19
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not commit adultery,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not steal,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not bear false witness,’ Exodus 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Exodus 20
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Lev 19:18

All of it from "The Law of Moses"

==================

All who are lost - to this very day -- remain under that old covenant set of conditions "Obey and live". Romans 3:19-21

It is a sin under both O.C. and N.C. to dishonor parents or take God's name in vain - and that is because it is the same moral law of God in both. But the difference is the "agreement" the "conditions" - the "Covenant" under which the commandments of God apply.

The7thColporteur · Apr 30, 2018

ralliann said:
Yep, my post did not deny the works of faith, rather were to highlight them. None of which were commands of the mosaic code. As is obvious ( I would think) since,,,,
Noah and Abraham were given commands which no other man were given to perform, nor were they repeated.

We have the same commands, on a greater scale.

GodsGrace101 · May 1, 2018

BobRyan said:
Welcome to the thread.

===========================

Principle of "obey and live" for the "Old Covenant" the one prior to the Gospel - given to Adam and to Abraham - is found here.

==========================================

Old Covenant - "Obey and Live"

Genesis 2: 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Genesis 3:
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Lev 18:5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Jesus said
Matthew 19
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not commit adultery,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not steal,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not bear false witness,’ Exodus 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Exodus 20
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Lev 19:18

All of it from "The Law of Moses"

==================

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
"There is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9

Sinai was not an "individual" covenant (and the New Covenant is) . In other words it is not as though there were 2 million sinless "individuals" at Sinai -- until they started worshiping the golden calf.

The national-covenant at Sinai is used as a "symbol" of the Old Covenant made with Adam "obey and live" because at the level of 'a nation' that is how it was framed. Only national apostasy / rebellion -- would break it. An individual who coveted on that day or any other -- would not break that covenant.

I feel to understand why you keep bringing up Adam and that covenant.

You're right that not every Covenant was an "individual" covenant... some reinforced others. For instance the Mosaic Covenant was reinforced by the Sinai Covenant. Also, there was more then one Covenant with Abraham.

Each new covenant, however, did not abolish the previous one. It either completed it or made it better in some way.

The New Covenant did not abolish every other covenant, but it was the New and Everlasting Covenant open to all who would accept it.

I can only repeat that the "old covenant" refers to the Mosaic covenant.
I'm sorry, I'm not following this thread but will read through it tomorrow.

You say the Old Covenant is obey and live.
The New Covenant is also obey and live.

Old Covenant -- vs -- New Covenant - and the same moral law of God in both

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