Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

Doug Melven said:

Paul states why he rebuked Peter.
Because Peter still kept his old prejudices and didn't recognize that in the Body of Christ there are no Gentiles or Jews. We are all one in Christ.

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Neostarwcc said:

Perhaps the strongest argument in the Bible for Eternal Security and unconditional salvation are John 6:37-40 in which Jesus says:

" All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

It's hard not to believe in Eternal security with verses like that and John 10:28-30. Those are two powerful verses for the doctrine of Eternal Security.

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Neostarwcc, I will give an answer now to these passages.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” /Joh 10

Jesus sheep follow him, that is present, they are doing it now. Jesus gives them eternal life as long as the keep following him. No one can snatch them out of the Fathers hand! But they can themself listen to temptations and start living in sin, and then they will fall away. What Jesus says is true but you have to keep walking in the light.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” /Joh 6

When a person repents the Holy Spirit bring that sheep into the fold of Christ. And that person won't be driven away. Though, if he starts living in sin, and stop obeying God, it's not Jesus that drive him away he himself is leaving the fold. Jesus will not lose anyone that keeps walking in an obey/faith/love-relationship with him. If they start living in sin, then it's not Jesus that lost someone (no one snatched them out of his hands), rather it was someone that left the fold by their own choice and actions.

I think this how you are to understand these verses.

12 “What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13 If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish. /Matt 18

Jesus will look for his sheep, and IF he finds it he will rejoice. So, it's not that Jesus automatically "finds" all the lost sheep. That is why he rejoices when he finds it, because that sheep could have been lost.

GodsGrace101 said:

As it so happens, Jesus did say John 3:16. Not Paul.

So John 3:16 a couple of observations:

1. Jesus said we need to believe in Him. What does believe mean?
Is it a believing with the mind?

2. Jesus goes on to quote John 3:20-21
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Jesus went on to say verses 20 and 21 because He always based our salvation on our deeds NOT on our just believing with our minds.

As to what believe means, it means TO DO:

In the Word of God, Abraham is called "the father of all that believe." The Greek word translated faith is "pistis" which means belief. To believe is to have confidence and trust in that which you have heard to the end that you act upon it. God promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. Abraham could believe the words God spoke or he could reject them. Abraham was fully persuaded that God would fulfil His promise. That is "pistis" - belief. Having heard the Word of God you are confident that it is true and you believe it.
The opposite of "pistis" is "apistia" which means unbelief. If, when you hear God's Word, you reject it without action you are demonstrating "apistia" - unbelief.

source: Believe and Obey

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Of course I know who said John3:16....... I am too lazy to look up you’re original post but I believe you wanted an example of where Jesus said “ believe” in order to be saved....I provided that.
Paul said two or three times that he spoke for Christ....he wrote nothing in his missives that were not inspired by the Holy Spirit....The Gospel Christ told him to preach is 1cor15-1-4...Jesus, speaking through Paul said BELIEVING this gospel will save you——UNLESS you add to it. Anybody in this thread guilty of that?Obedience is great, and God’sSpirit in you will help you become obedient.Failure to be obedient will bring chastisement.If you believe the Gospel, God will get you home—— some Christians require a kick in the rear end all their lives to get them there. They made it to Heaven but lived a life of misery.Thats the life of the constantly back-sliding Believer—- He makes it “ as if escaping from a fire”.

zoidar said:

Jesus will not lose anyone that keeps walking in an obey/faith/love-relationship with him. If they start living in sin, then it's not Jesus that lost someone, rather someone that left the fold by their own choice.

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Jesus said in John 10 that He is the Door to the sheepfold.
Once you are in the fold, you are in the fold. Jesus isn't just any Shepherd, He is the Good Shepherd.

zoidar said:

If they start living in sin, then it's not Jesus that lost someone, rather someone that left the fold by their own choice.

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This is where Hebrews 13:5 comes in.
God promised He would not leave us or forsake us.
This isn't just a nice little platitude that we can frame and put on our wall.
This is a promise from God who cannot lie.

How does one reverse a spiritual miraculous event given by God: the Salvation Event??

God does not take back nor allow man to give back His SALVATION...PAST completed TENSE! (AORIST!)

John 5:24 (all NASB) “Truly, truly, I (Jesus) say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED out of death into life.

Ephesians 2:4-10
(by grace you HAVE BEEN saved),

Luke 19:1-10...[ Zaccheus Converted ]
9 And Jesus said to him,
“Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of Man "has come" to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them,
“It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick;
I did not "come to call" the righteous, but sinners.”

John 3
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might "be saved" through Him.
18 He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he "has not believed" in the name of the ONLY begotten Son of God.

John 6
35 Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life;
he who COMES to Me WILL not hunger,
and he who BELIEVES in Me WILL never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have SEEN Me, and yet do not BELIEVE.
40 For this is the will of My Father,
that everyone who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him "WILL (is certain to) have "eternal life"",
and I Myself will raise him up "on the last day".”

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I "GIVE eternal life to them", and they (believer's spirits) will never perish (EVER!);
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who HAS GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.” (IN SPIRITUAL ESSENCE AND NATURE!)

John 17:2-3 ...Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father about Jesus' followers
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh,
that to all whom You "have given" Him,
He MAY GIVE "eternal life".
This is "eternal life",
that they MAY KNOW You, the only true God, and
(KNOW now) Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who "RECEIVED" him,
to those who "BELIEVED" in His name, (Jesus the Christ) He gave the right to become CHILDREN of God...(saved at time of belief)

(3) In Revelation, the letter to the Church of Sardis also refutes the doctrine of eternal security. The church of Sardis was once very alive spiritually, but have gradually become spiritually "dead." Christ warns them of their need to "wake up" and "strengthen" their backslidden spirituality (3:1-2). Only in this way can they achieve spiritual victory. What is at stake is whether their name will be blotted out of the Book of Life: "If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life (3:5)." In other words, Christians whose names are in this book can in theory have their names blotted out, and thus can lose their salvation.

EternallyKeptByJesus said in post #1:

Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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Note that the Bible does not teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people, that is, Christians, will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if Christians do continue in the faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience to God, and do good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if Christians do continue in faith and good works of faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help other Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that Christians will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not remove words from the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not worship the future Antichrist, and his image, and do not willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there is no assurance that they will not choose to do these things (1 Timothy 4:1).

Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All of this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in Christians, but the healthy fear which all Christians are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all of this is said not to engender any despair in Christians, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus Christ Himself, which all Christians must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right things (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they cannot do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus Christ is not a hard taskmaster. He will never give Christians more work to do for Him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if Christians ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back, and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work He is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

EternallyKeptByJesus said in post #5:

You can't undo being the child of your parents. In like manner you can't undo being a child of God once saved.

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Note that whereas Christians are indeed the children of God (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1, John 1:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation, such as by refusing to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46). For under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have even his own son stoned to death, if his son refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). And under the New Covenant, God will ultimately punish unrepentant sinners even more sorely than He did under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Deadworm said in post #225:

What is at stake is whether their name will be blotted out of the Book of Life: "If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life (3:5)." In other words, Christians whose names are in this book can in theory have their names blotted out, and thus can lose their salvation.

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That's right.

Also, the names of the elect were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world (Revelation 17:8b). For even before the foundation of the world, they were elected (chosen) by God to become Christians at some point during their lifetime (Ephesians 1:4-11). But note that nowhere does the Bible say or require that the names of the elect were permanently written in the Book of Life, in the sense of it being impossible for any elect individual, once saved, to ultimately lose his salvation, such as in Hebrews 6:4-8.

God could write the names of some people in the Book of Life even though He knows that He will eventually have to blot out their names (Revelation 3:5) when they wrongly employ their free will to the ultimate loss of their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29) for the same reason that God created an entire race of people on the earth even though He knew that He would eventually have to blot them all off the face of the earth (except for only eight people: 1 Peter 3:20) in Noah's Flood, after that entire race of people (except for the eight people) wrongly employed their free will to become utterly corrupt (Genesis 6:5-7).

Micah888 said:

Let's put aside the issue of free will for the moment.

The eternal security of the believer is based upon the fact that he or she is "in" Christ and Christ is "in" them. So every believer is eternally joined to the Body of Christ (which is also His Bride). And no man or Satan can sever the believer from that Body.

Therefore Paul says that "nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom 8:39).

And Scripture also says that we are "kept by the power of God". [The elect according to the foreknowledge of God] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:5).

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We could put aside free will for the moment but it has everything to do with this discussion. I believe I have free will to abandon God if I so desire. Those that believe in eternal security apparently believe they have lost their free will and God will not let them go. The bible teaches me that I have free will.

As long as we are IN CHRIST, we are saved. It's up to me to decide if I want to be IN CHRIST, just like it was up to me to become saved. Some believe God forces us to become saved because HE chose US. As must be apparent, I don't believe this. I don't find this in scripture.j I find that it is our choice.

Acts 16:30-31...what must I do to be saved? Answer: Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

John 3:16...WHOEVER believes in the Lord will be saved.

Romans 5:18...through one man (adam) transgression resulted in condemnation, so through one man (Jesus) this one act of righteousness resulted in justification for ALL MEN --- who would choose to be saved, of course.

As to the wedding and the bride --- I agree, but the wedding has not taken place yet. It will happen when Jesus returns for His bride. At the fullness of time.
Revelation 19:7
Revelation 21:2, 9

MDC said:

If eternal life in Christ could be lost then Christ has failed. That’s essentially what is being said by those who teach and believe salvation could be lost. Obedience is the fruit or result of being saved in Christ. Not the cause or what maintains salvation. To suggest so as these folk do, show they’re void of faith. Paul rebukes this false doctrine in the book of Galatians. This is what happens when one denies the grace of God in salvation and Christ’s merits as the only basis for justification before God. Being self righteous is believing that ones own works are meritorious in some way

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You're repeating and have provided no scripture.
If God is demanding us to be obedient, as I've shown with scripture, how can you say that our obeying Him is being self-righteous?

Obedience is the fruit, yes, I agree. But what did Jesus say?
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments".
John 15:14 "You are My friends if you do what I command".
IOW, Jesus is commanding us to obey Him. How could the fruit of this be self-righteousness?

If we become lost, it is NOT Christ who failed, but ourself. If our free will takes us away from Christ, for whatever reason, then we become unsaved but it is OUR choice, not God's choice. God wills that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 God desires all men to be saved, providing they accept His condition to believe in His Son, Jesus.

We are justified through faith in Jesus and not through WORKS OF THE LAW (these are self-righteous works).
Galatians 2:16

Also, check out verse 17: "But, if while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found a sinner, is Christ then a minister of sin? My it never be!".

Of course if you believe that God, in His sovereignty, causes everything little thing to happen, then, yes, in effect you're saying God causes man to sin.

GodsGrace101 said:

It's up to me to decide if I want to be IN CHRIST...

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If you are truly in Christ, it is too late for you to decide whether you want out. It's like a baby wanting to go back into its mother's womb. Not possible.

However, Christians who refuse to repent of their sins face some very serious consequences, including premature death.

Doug Melven said:

How is that?
Choices have consequences.
Once we chose to believe, the consequence was eternal life. We became His child.
Free will doesn't say that if I don't like the consequences I can just not have to be subject to them.
If somebody commits a felony worthy of prison time, and then they tell the judge I don't like the sentence, do you really think the judge will say ok you can go because I don't want to violate your free will?
I understand with today's ethics that if a child is conceived and she doesn't want the child she can have an abortion. But this is not true in God's way of doing things. When God conceives a child, He brings it forth. He doesn't ever leave or forsake His child.

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I'm sorry I don't follow you at all.
You seem to be talking about sentencing when it does not apply to this discussion. God is not bringing me to hell, he's bringing me to heaven.
My free will comes into play because in the same way me free will allowed me to become saved, it can also allow me to leave the protection of Jesus.
I can choose to be saved.
I can choose to walk away.

John 6:66 Many of the disciples (followers of Jesus) walked away.
Did Jesus forcibly stop them from walking away or did He let them go?
He respected their free will to stop following Him and let them go. He only wants those who truly love Him and are willing to follow Him.

Just because some will take advantage does that mean we should stop preaching the Truth?
Somehow, I don't think anyone will actually take advantage of God.

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I was saying that some take advantage of God and live lawless lives when they hear the doctrine of OSAS. You say you do not believe people take advantage. On this very thread we hear about a sibling that believes he could sin all he wants to because Jesus paid for his sins!
As to stopping to preach the truth....that is YOUR truth, eternal security is not taught in the bible, so how do you preach it? How is it the truth?
Jesus and Paul and all the writers admonish us to behave as Jesus would want us to or lose our firm standing...
Mathew 5:13
Romans 11:22
Hebrews 10:26-27

Depend on or completely trust.
We don't just believe that Jesus exists. No, we believe He died in our place for our sins.

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No. This is not the N.T. description of the word "believe".
Here is what it means:

In every verse in the New Testament in which it is taught that salvation is the result of believing, the Greek words translated as ‘believe’ or ‘believing’ are in the Greek present tense or the Greek present participle. Greek verbs in the present tense and Greek present participles, unlike English verbs in the present tense and English present participles, stress the aspect of the action rather than the time of the action. The aspect of the action is that it is continuous rather than limited in time. Therefore, the promise in these verses of eternal life is conditional upon our continuing to hear the words of Jesus, continuing to believe Him who sent Jesus, continuing to obey the son, and continuing to believe that Jesus is the Christ.

If one believes in Christ, one is a disciple of Christ, if one is a disciple of Christ, he will do as Christ commands.

You could look at it as OSAS 101 showed or you could look at the Scripture and see that they become offended.

Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Where does it say they turn away and lose there salvation?

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I exegeted the verses that were given to me.
Please show me where the word offended is used. The NASB says that the person FELL AWAY. WHAT did he fall away from??
Salvation!

What world do you live in where this is possible?
Maybe an adult could do this, but not a child.

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A child cannot leave a parent??? What world do YOU live in!!
I live in this world...
Luke 15:11-31

Micah888 said:

If you are truly in Christ, it is too late for you to decide whether you want out. It's like a baby wanting to go back into its mother's womb. Not possible.

However, Christians who refuse to repent of their sins face some very serious consequences, including premature death.

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This is not what Jesus tells us.
John 15:1-6

verse 2 The Father takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in Jesus.

verse 4 We are to ABIDE in Christ if we want to bear fruit. A branch needs the vine to bear fruit.

verse 6 "If anyone does NOT ABIDE in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up, and they gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned." NASB

Ron Gurley said:

How does one reverse a spiritual miraculous event given by God: the Salvation Event??

God does not take back nor allow man to give back His SALVATION...PAST completed TENSE! (AORIST!)

John 5:24 (all NASB) “Truly, truly, I (Jesus) say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED out of death into life.

Ephesians 2:4-10
(by grace you HAVE BEEN saved),

Luke 19:1-10...[ Zaccheus Converted ]
9 And Jesus said to him,
“Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of Man "has come" to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them,
“It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick;
I did not "come to call" the righteous, but sinners.”

John 3
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might "be saved" through Him.
18 He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he "has not believed" in the name of the ONLY begotten Son of God.

John 6
35 Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life;
he who COMES to Me WILL not hunger,
and he who BELIEVES in Me WILL never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have SEEN Me, and yet do not BELIEVE.
40 For this is the will of My Father,
that everyone who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him "WILL (is certain to) have "eternal life"",
and I Myself will raise him up "on the last day".”

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I "GIVE eternal life to them", and they (believer's spirits) will never perish (EVER!);
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who HAS GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.” (IN SPIRITUAL ESSENCE AND NATURE!)

John 17:2-3 ...Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father about Jesus' followers
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh,
that to all whom You "have given" Him,
He MAY GIVE "eternal life".
This is "eternal life",
that they MAY KNOW You, the only true God, and
(KNOW now) Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who "RECEIVED" him,
to those who "BELIEVED" in His name, (Jesus the Christ) He gave the right to become CHILDREN of God...(saved at time of belief)

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OH NO!! The aorist tense!!


Are you a Greek scholar?
Then you shouldn't dabble with the aorist tense, which you apparently do not understand.

Secondly, how did you prove anything with those verses?
Each one states that the belief must by in the present (NOW NOT IN THE PAST continuing to now) in order to be valid.

GodsGrace101 said:

You're repeating and have provided no scripture.
If God is demanding us to be obedient, as I've shown with scripture, how can you say that our obeying Him is being self-righteous?

Obedience is the fruit, yes, I agree. But what did Jesus say?
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments".
John 15:14 "You are My friends if you do what I command".
IOW, Jesus is commanding us to obey Him. How could the fruit of this be self-righteousness?

If we become lost, it is NOT Christ who failed, but ourself. If our free will takes us away from Christ, for whatever reason, then we become unsaved but it is OUR choice, not God's choice. God wills that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 God desires all men to be saved, providing they accept His condition to believe in His Son, Jesus.

We are justified through faith in Jesus and not through WORKS OF THE LAW (these are self-righteous works).
Galatians 2:16

Also, check out verse 17: "But, if while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found a sinner, is Christ then a minister of sin? My it never be!".

Of course if you believe that God, in His sovereignty, causes everything little thing to happen, then, yes, in effect you're saying God causes man to sin.

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Being stiff neck and stubbornly arrogant requires a repetitive rebuke to false teachers who are accursed of God. And you, by continually saying that ones works is meritorious towards justification and salvation, needs to be rebuked. This is self righteousness. The elect, obey and desire righteousness out of a new heart God has given them. Ezekiel 36:22-29. Continual and abiding faith is a gift of God by God’s power. Not your own! But I see the veil has not been lifted from your eyes to see this truth. Salvation is all of grace. All in Christ. But since you cannot see your own sinful depravity and inability to please God, you cannot see this. And is why you seek to be justified by the law. You are void of faith and it’s very obvious. You do not believe you are justified by Christ and His merits. So Galatians 2:16 is foreign to your ears. Paying lip service to it proves nothing, simply because its nullified by the prideful doctrine of losing eternal life by mans self righteous works. And as Paul says in Galatians, you pervert the gospel of Christ. There is no Christ in your perverted gospel. And your last comment proves your arrogance even further. Free will (mans sovereignty) is at the root of this false doctrine like I said before. And is why you reject Gods Sovereignty in salvation. God has decreed all that comes to pass. Even the salvation of His elect, so none will parish. And holds the reprobate responsible for their sin. This is a truth free will humanist hate

MDC said:

Being stiff neck and stubbornly arrogant requires a repetitive rebuke to false teachers who are accursed of God. And you, by continually saying that ones works is meritorious towards justification and salvation, needs to be rebuked. This is self righteousness. The elect, obey and desire righteousness out of a new heart God has given them. Ezekiel 36:22-29. Continual and abiding faith is a gift of God by God’s power. Not your own! But I see the veil has not been lifted from your eyes to see this truth. Salvation is all of grace. All in Christ. But since you cannot see your own sinful depravity and inability to please God, you cannot see this. And is why you seek to be justified by the law. You are void of faith and it’s very obvious. You do not believe you are justified by Christ and His merits. So Galatians 2:16 is foreign to your ears. Paying lip service to it proves nothing, simply because its nullified by the prideful doctrine of losing eternal life by mans self righteous works. And as Paul says in Galatians, you pervert the gospel of Christ. There is no Christ in your perverted gospel. And your last comment proves your arrogance even further. Free will (mans sovereignty) is at the root of this false doctrine like I said before. And is why you reject Gods Sovereignty in salvation. God has decreed all that comes to pass. Even the salvation of His elect, so none will parish. And holds the reprobate responsible for their sin. This is a truth free will humanist hate

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Who can be more self-righteous than one who writes what you just wrote above!

Did I scold you? No. Why do you scold me?
Because you believe you're one of the chosen few that God loves and He can love no one else except those HE chose, according to your mistaken beliefs. Who can be more arrogant than to believe this?

I'm not here to be scolded. If you wish to converse, please use scritpture, if not, you can choose to not respond to me.

Galatians 2:13-16
13The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

15“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

I began with verse 13 because Paul is speaking to Jews.
Jews, as I'm sure you know, were accustomed to being made righteous in the eyes of God by their following the LAW. And, in fact, man was made righteous by his own efforts in the O.T.
Psalms 1:5-6
Isaiah 26:7
Hosea 14:9
Jesus was not offered yet, we were righteous of our own actions.

THE WORKS OF THE LAW are the works persons do to try to gain salvation with God. Since Jesus is our propitiation and atonement, HE is now our works. We are no longer saved by works but by Jesus.
This is a simple concept to understand.
AFTER we are saved, we are still required to follow the commandments of God.
Mathew 5:17-20

The wicked, my dear man, will still be punished for NOT CHOOSING JESUS.

Don't be so hateful and self-righteous.
God is a God of love, He loves ALL HIS CREATION, not just you.

Deadworm said:

(3) In Revelation, the letter to the Church of Sardis also refutes the doctrine of eternal security. The church of Sardis was once very alive spiritually, but have gradually become spiritually "dead." Christ warns them of their need to "wake up" and "strengthen" their backslidden spirituality (3:1-2). Only in this way can they achieve spiritual victory. What is at stake is whether their name will be blotted out of the Book of Life: "If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life (3:5)." In other words, Christians whose names are in this book can in theory have their names blotted out, and thus can lose their salvation.

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Conquer what? Unbelief. That is what we must overcome.
And there is no record of how a name gets put into the Book of Life.
Does God make mistakes?

Bible2+ said:

Also, even if Christians do continue in the faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience to God, and do good works

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Your interpretation of those verses makes salvation by works.
In which case nobody will be saved because nobody will be able to do enough good works to earn eternal life.
Eternal life is a gift. You cannot work for a gift, Gratitude is good, but not a necessity to receive.
Remember the 10 lepers, only one had gratitude, but all 10 were healed.

Bible2+ said:

Note that whereas Christians are indeed the children of God (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1, John 1:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation, such as by refusing to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46). For under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have even his own son stoned to death, if his son refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). And under the New Covenant, God will ultimately punish unrepentant sinners even more sorely than He did under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

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You mean the sin that Jesus Christ put away as far as the East is from the West and promised that He would not impute to us. Psalm 103, 2 Corinthians 5:17-21

GodsGrace101 said:

I'm sorry I don't follow you at all.
You seem to be talking about sentencing when it does not apply to this discussion. God is not bringing me to hell, he's bringing me to heaven.
My free will comes into play because in the same way me free will allowed me to become saved, it can also allow me to leave the protection of Jesus.
I can choose to be saved.
I can choose to walk away.

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You are talking about free will.
Make a choice, every choice has a consequence. You may or may not like the consequence.
But, you can't say, "I don't care for the consequence, I choose to not be bound by the consequences for my actions".
To do so would be to mock God, and God will not be mocked.
If you plant a seed for a tree, you don't keep replanting the seed.
No, the seed is planted.
Once the Word of God took root in our hearts, eternal life is the result.
If it ended shortly, it wouldn't be eternal now would it?

GodsGrace101 said:

Who can be more self-righteous than one who writes what you just wrote above!

Did I scold you? No. Why do you scold me?
Because you believe you're one of the chosen few that God loves and He can love no one else except those HE chose, according to your mistaken beliefs. Who can be more arrogant than to believe this?

I'm not here to be scolded. If you wish to converse, please use scritpture, if not, you can choose to not respond to me.

Galatians 2:13-16
13The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

15“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

I began with verse 13 because Paul is speaking to Jews.
Jews, as I'm sure you know, were accustomed to being made righteous in the eyes of God by their following the LAW. And, in fact, man was made righteous by his own efforts in the O.T.
Psalms 1:5-6
Isaiah 26:7
Hosea 14:9
Jesus was not offered yet, we were righteous of our own actions.

THE WORKS OF THE LAW are the works persons do to try to gain salvation with God. Since Jesus is our propitiation and atonement, HE is now our works. We are no longer saved by works but by Jesus.
This is a simple concept to understand.
AFTER we are saved, we are still required to follow the commandments of God.
Mathew 5:17-20

The wicked, my dear man, will still be punished for NOT CHOOSING JESUS.

Don't be so hateful and self-righteous.
God is a God of love, He loves ALL HIS CREATION, not just you.

Click to expand...

Salvation has always been by the grace of God. Sovereign grace conditioned in the promised Savior and His righteousness! Abraham being the example in Romans 4:1-11. But yet self righteousness blinds you from seeing this truth. But keep trying, I’m sure eventually you’ll make yourself righteous enough to be approved of God

Doug Melven said:

You are talking about free will.
Make a choice, every choice has a consequence. You may or may not like the consequence.
But, you can't say, "I don't care for the consequence, I choose to not be bound by the consequences for my actions".
To do so would be to mock God, and God will not be mocked.
If you plant a seed for a tree, you don't keep replanting the seed.
No, the seed is planted.
Once the Word of God took root in our hearts, eternal life is the result.
If it ended shortly, it wouldn't be eternal now would it?

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I chose God so I like the consequences.
Regarding the seed, Jesus spoke to this. It depends depends on the seed and where it's planted -- not all take hold and some take hold and then let go and some stay planted.
Mathew 13:18-23

I agree with you that the word of God should take root in our heart, but then why would there be so much talk in the N.T. of standing firm, and not falling away, if it were not possible?

GodsGrace101 said:

I chose God so I like the consequences.
Regarding the seed, Jesus spoke to this. It depends depends on the seed and where it's planted -- not all take hold and some take hold and then let go and some stay planted.
Mathew 13:18-23

I agree with you that the word of God should take root in our heart, but then why would there be so much talk in the N.T. of standing firm, and not falling away, if it were not possible?

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What happens later if you decide you don't like the consequences, are you still subject to them?
When we are born-again we get eternal life, mostly we think eternal life is for after we die.
But, there is more than just the next life.
When you were born-again, your spirit was made new, sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Receiving eternal life after we die is a done deal.
Then there is this life we are living now.
Though our Spirit is sanctified forever (Hebrews 10:14) our souls and bodies still need work.
In James 5:19-20 it says that a soul can be turned from the error of its ways and will be saved from death.
When the Bible talks about death is not always referring to the Second Death.
Could be physical death, sickness is a form of death.
We need to be continually becoming more and more like Christ in our souls, are spirits are exactly like Christ already. 1 John 4:17
So this is why all of the Scriptures say we need to continue, hold firm, stand fast.
Also what we do in this life affects some of the things that will happen in the next life. 1 Corinthians 3
If all our works are wood, hay or stubble they will be burnt up but we will still be saved yet so as by fire.