Taking Luke 14:33 literally

1 John 4:1

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I think the command is situational. What that means is that if there isn't a community like Jesus and his followers (and they let you join) or a community like the church in Acts then the command does not apply. (there are false Christs) The verses before Luke 14:33 talk about being careful and considering the cost. (doesn't seem like this was supposed to be done lightly in most cases) I'll leave the other evidence for that out to keep this short. What do you think of the following evidence for this theory?

1 The apostles gave up everything: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus' disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20

I have already posted this on the controversial theology section and it didn't get many responses. Hopefully I can get some more feedback here, was curious what disagreements people would have with this.
 

St_Worm2

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Hi @1 John 4:1, why do you believe the Lord taught us this in the first place (that we need to give up all of our possessions if we want to be His disciple)? IOW, what did He hope to accomplish in the lives of those He was teaching back then (and now, if this teaching ends up not being "situational" as you believe it to be)?

Finally, what do you believe v33 is actually teaching us to do? Remember that the very clothes on our backs are our "possessions" as well ;)

Also, please take note of who He was addressing. It was far more than a small community of believers, yes? (see v25 below)

Luke 14
25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
26 If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28 For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’
31 Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
33 So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

If what you say about v33 is true, that would mean that v26 is also "situational", which in turn would mean that it's ok for us today to regard other relationships as more valuable than our relationship with God is. Surely you cannot believe that this is true :scratch:

Yours and His,
David

Matthew 10
37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.​
 
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Hank77

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Here's what the Calvinist John Gill said in his commentary about this verse. Mr. Gill's words in blue.

Luke 14:33
So likewise whosoever he be of you,....
Let him be ever so forward to follow me, to make a profession of me and of my Gospel, and to become a disciple of mine:

that forsaketh not all that he hath; when called to it, relations, friends, possessions, estates, and what not, which is an explanation of Luk_14:26

he cannot be my disciple; he is not in fact one, and is not worthy to be called one.

I think these are hard scriptures to get just right but I'll take a stab at it.

We know that Peter owned a house which he left but still owned because his mother-in-law lived there. In Timothy, Paul says if a man doesn't take care of his family he is like a heathen. Jesus criticized Jews for using Korbin in order to neglect the care of their parents.
So clearly Jesus didn't expect everyone to sell all their possession in order to follow Him. Taking care of one's family is following Him.

Count the cost.
But going out traveling the world to preach the gossip was/is a serious commitment and not an easy life to live. Sometimes their lives were in danger; Paul said his life was in danger every day. Indeed missionaries down through the ages have given up their lives to preached the gospel.
Then there are those such as nuns and priests who take vows to serve God, giving up marrying or having children of their own. None of these things should be done lightly. Make sure that is what the Lord is calling you to do and be prepared to give up everything, so that you will finish the race.

If you are called to marry and be a parent be prepared to give up everything in order to do what the Lord has called you to do and do it well.
 
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dreadnought

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I think the command is situational. What that means is that if there isn't a community like Jesus and his followers (and they let you join) or a community like the church in Acts then the command does not apply. (there are false Christs) The verses before Luke 14:33 talk about being careful and considering the cost. (doesn't seem like this was supposed to be done lightly in most cases) I'll leave the other evidence for that out to keep this short. What do you think of the following evidence for this theory?

1 The apostles gave up everything: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus' disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20

I have already posted this on the controversial theology section and it didn't get many responses. Hopefully I can get some more feedback here, was curious what disagreements people would have with this.
Taking the command out of context (I didn't read the whole chapter), isn't he just saying we need to put Jesus above all things? In other words, we obey him whether people want us to or not.
 
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TuxAme

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Jesus employed hyperbole often. Obviously Jesus didn't want us to sell all of our clothes, for example- that would be indecent in our fallen nature. But, we are called to live in such a way that we're not living in excess. This is one of the biggest issues Christians in Western countries face- it's so easy to do so, easier than it was back in Jesus' day.
 
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SkyWriting

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I think the command is situational. What that means is that if there isn't a community like Jesus and his followers (and they let you join) or a community like the church in Acts then the command does not apply. (there are false Christs) The verses before Luke 14:33 talk about being careful and considering the cost. (doesn't seem like this was supposed to be done lightly in most cases) I'll leave the other evidence for that out to keep this short. What do you think of the following evidence for this theory?

1 The apostles gave up everything: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus' disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20

I have already posted this on the controversial theology section and it didn't get many responses. Hopefully I can get some more feedback here, was curious what disagreements people would have with this.

The command is universal. But it is not literal.
Disciples are allowed to continue to live their lives
breath their own air, eat food for nourishment....
they don't' actually give up anything except the
focus of their lives.
 
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1 John 4:1

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@St_Worm2 Thanks so much for your very thoughtful critique of my theory.

Hi @1 John 4:1, why do you believe the Lord taught us this in the first place (that we need to give up all of our possessions if we want to be His disciple)?
In short because of verses like Luke 12:29-34 Matthew 6:19-21 "where your treasure is there your heart will be also" More lengthy would be: I also think the kingdom of God and the identical kingdom of heaven were movements of people in addition to the spiritual kingdom in heaven. I think the movement of people was called this because it was a precursor to the full spiritual kingdom of heaven. In the new testament I think there is a different situation after Christ ascended with the coming of the holy spirit at Pentecost John 16:7 that would call people to a closer knit kingdom. (in terms of church communities like in the book of Acts) Also Christ said "all authority on heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matthew 28:18 In a similar way, before there was Israel God saw the need for more community and created Israel and all the rituals and civil laws that held it together. (also see Luke 2:25)

This would basically be the next level community in the form of communal churches like Acts. John the baptist prepared the way for Christ's movement by saying: if one has two cloaks give to him who has none, Luke 3:11 and he came to turn the hearts of the children back to the fathers and vice versa. Luke 1:17 However Jesus came and said that anyone who does the will of the father is his family. Matthew 12:49 (John strengthened the family unit and Jesus extended it) Here's something from a document on this using YLT (which uses "reign" instead of kingdom)

The Kingdom of Heaven" or "the reign of God" is establishing God's reign over and through the people of God: ". . . the reign of God is within you." (Luke 17:21) "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the reign of God;" (Luke 18:16) Considering John 16:7 the coming of the Holy Spirit to the Church in Acts was likely the fulfillment of the following verses:
"Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'" (Matthew 16:28)
"`And whenever they may persecute you in this city, flee to the other, for verily I say to you, ye may not have completed the cities of Israel till the Son of Man may come." (Matthew 10:23)

While the reign of God or heaven doesn't appear in the old testament, the "kingdom of Yahweh" (translated in YLT "Jehovah") certainly can't be different and is made up of the people of Israel: (1 Chronicles 28:5) (2 Chronicles 13:8)
Also observe these parallels of maybe a disciple who was waiting for a Church like that in Acts: ”Joseph of Arimathea, an honourable counsellor, who also himself was waiting G4327 for the reign of God, came, boldly entered in unto Pilate, and asked the body of Jesus.” (Mark 15:43) (Parallel in Luke 23:51) ”And lo, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [is] Simeon, and this man is righteous and devout, looking for the comforting G3874 of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him,” (Luke 2:25) Acts 9:31 uses the same word G3874 to describe the work of the holy spirit after Christ. ”Then, indeed, the assemblies throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria, had peace, being built up, and, going on in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort G3874 of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.” (Acts 9:31)

If you have questions on this I would love to expand/explain.

IOW, what did He hope to accomplish in the lives of those He was teaching back then (and now, if this teaching ends up not being "situational" as you believe it to be)?
I think it is situational because he gave that command when his apostles and him were living communally. He gave the command in the context of the situation at the time and of those under his authority. I think he later sent the holy spirit to further his authority in the church. If it's not situational then I think there are some serious problems. I already alluded to the problem that there are false christs. (how do you decide where to give your possessions to be distributed to the poor) However the other problem is that if I give up everything to all the people around me who are in need then what have a done permanently except create a new poor person (of myself) ? I think you need community support to fix problems like poverty. You are not supposed to worry about your basic needs but not worrying about your needs (EDIT: and having those needs) is connected with finding the kingdom of heaven (I think a community like the church in Acts that will take care of your basic needs no matter what)

31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
This is also associated with the giving up of possessions: Luke 12:30-34
For the rest of the question see the what I've said earlier (I hope that answers it)

Also, please take note of who He was addressing. It was far more than a small community of believers, yes? (see v25 below)
Yes it was addressed to all but the content of the command I think should be understood in context with the common purse their group kept and the fact that when there were possessions given up for the poor it went to the group purse and then was distributed. John 12:5-6

Finally, what do you believe v33 is actually teaching us to do? Remember that the very clothes on our backs are our "possessions" as well ;)
I don't think they would have taken things that literally and gotten naked :) but I can understand the criticism. If it was a hyperbole then it was maybe showing a principle and it meant to love your possessions less. Most people take it that way (I however am weird :) ) EDIT: Mark 10:28 would indicate that Peter thought they had indeed left all and yet he wasn't walking around naked.

If what you say about v33 is true, that would mean that v26 is also "situational", which in turn would mean that it's ok for us today to regard other relationships as more valuable than our relationship with God is. Surely you cannot believe that this is true :scratch:
I surely cannot and do not believe this is true. There is no issue with doing v26 in all situations because it is an attitude of loving relationships less than Christ. However with v33 there is some underlying context that I think I've explained somewhat and I've explained how Jesus gave this command in a situation already. I will also add to this underlying context that the Essenes also required you to give up all your possession when you joined and they were one of the major three sects of Judaism at the time of Jesus:
"122 Since [they are] despisers of wealth—their communal stock is astonishing—, one cannot find a person among them who has more in terms of possessions. For by a law, those coming into the school must yield up their funds to the order, with the result that in all [their ranks] neither the humiliation of poverty nor the superiority of wealth is detectable, but the assets of each one have been mixed in together, as if they were brothers, to create one fund for all." Josephus on the Essenes - Biblical Archaeology Society

Josephus says "the assets of each one have been mixed in together" yet clothes were very time consuming to make back then and were certainly valuable. So I think we can see here that Josephus would not have taken "give up all possessions" as meaning you needed to "get naked." Basically I'm arguing that people would have understood what "give up your possessions" meant in the religious context of the day.

Sorry for the long post I hope that gives you an idea of why I believe this feel free to just pick apart the parts you find relevant to your interests :) Thanks for humoring my weird theory :) I would answer more people's posts but I don't have time at the moment.
 
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1 John 4:1

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@jesus316
I think there is an underlying context to this command 1 Essenes 2 Jesus keeping a common purse with his disciples and them giving up everything. (for more details see my previous post)

@Hank77 "We know that Peter owned a house which he left but still owned because his mother-in-law lived there. "
I don't know if it was in his name or another relative's name but I would be interested if you could provide evidence for this.

"In Timothy, Paul says if a man doesn't take care of his family he is like a heathen. . . Jesus criticized Jews for using Korbin in order to neglect the care of their parents."
I think this is a good observation. There are some commands that may conflict with other commands in certain situations. So "korbin" means a gift that isn't required, but what if you don't have anything and you have to choose between giving something required by the law and something to support your parents? In 2 Samuel 14 the judgment king David gives to the wise woman of Tekoa conflicts with the command of the avenger of blood, yet it upholds the principles of other commands like the levirate marriage (which was supposed to make sure someone had descendants) and caring for the widow. This is one example I think where you see the "spirit of the law" rather than "the letter of the law" which is talked about in the new testament as well. 2 Corinthians 3:6 Now given this command was given by Christ in Luke 14:33 it does add extra weight to it so I don't know how I would resolve this, maybe you could find a community that would agree to support your parents if you joined.

@dreadnought
"Taking the command out of context (I didn't read the whole chapter), isn't he just saying we need to put Jesus above all things? In other words, we obey him whether people want us to or not."
I think the context changes from loving things less to the cost of following Christ before we get to Luke 14:33 so I see the command connected with cost (so it's saying the cost is everything you have) also see my previous post.

@TuxAme @SkyWriting I was curious if you could show me examples of where a command "give up all your possessions" or similar was not taken literally. The command given to the rich young ruler seemed to be taken literally by everyone that's why the apostles were shocked: (also see my previous post)

Mark 10 (NKJV)
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”

22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”

27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

28 Then Peter began to say to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You.”

29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

Notice that it talks about receiving "hundredfold now in this time" of houses, family members, and lands. The only way this can be fulfilled in this life is if it is talking about joining a close-knit community that is like a family and shares all their houses and lands completely.

Thanks so much for the perceptive critiques. EDIT: However I would like it someone could address my original evidence containing three points directly, is there a flaw in the logic here? (I did change the first point slightly and added a conclusion)

1 The apostles were commanded to give up everything: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus' disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20
4 Therefore all disciples of Christ were commanded to give up everything.
 
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Hank77

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So "korbin" means a gift that isn't required, but what if you don't have anything and you have to choose between giving something required by the law and something to support your parents?
I'll have to study the others you mention but this one seems easy to me because I have studied Moses Law quite bit. If one was too poor to care for their own family they would be on the receiving end of alms. It's clear both from Jesus' statement and the widows statement in Timothy that the parent's care was considered the responsibility of the children.

1Ti 5:4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.

Even with the agricultural tithe if one didn't have ten lambs [the increase of their herd] they were not required to tithe. I don't know of anywhere God required the poor to give so I don't know of any law they would be breaking by caring for their family first.

Mat 8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
Mar 1:29 And forthwith, when they were come out of the synagogue, they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.


I have no reason to believe that this house didn't belong to Peter.
 
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1 John 4:1

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Oh apologies Korban doesn't mean that literally. What Is the Meaning of "Corban"? However it wasn't required by the law was the point. (was quoting someone I had heard that from and wanted to correct myself, @Hank77 thanks for your response I'll certainly post back later)
 
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Hank77

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In 2 Samuel 14 the judgment king David gives to the wise woman of Tekoa conflicts with the command of the avenger of blood, yet it upholds the principles of other commands like the levirate marriage (which was supposed to make sure someone had descendants) and caring for the widow. This is one example I think where you see the "spirit of the law" rather than "the letter of the law" which is talked about in the new testament as well. 2 Corinthians 3:6 Now given this command was given by Christ in Luke 14:33 it does add extra weight to it so I don't know how I would resolve this, maybe you could find a community that would agree to support your parents if you joined.
I would agree. It reminds me of when Jesus and the disciples were eating from the fields on the Sabbath and Jesus compares it to David and his men eating the show bread that was only for the High Priest and his household.
Oh, I just thought of something else. After Jesus was crucified Peter and Andrew returned to their fishing business, so obviously they still owned their boat.
 
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1 John 4:1

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@Hank77

I'll have to study the others you mention but this one seems easy to me because I have studied Moses Law quite bit. If one was too poor to care for their own family they would be on the receiving end of alms.
. . .
Even with the agricultural tithe if one didn't have ten lambs [the increase of their herd] they were not required to tithe. I don't know of anywhere God required the poor to give so I don't know of any law they would be breaking by caring for their family first. . . .
This might not be relevant anymore since I think we both agree that laws can be in tension sometimes but Leviticus 14 requires you to offer something to the priest to be officially cleansed of leprosy before coming back inside the camp. It does make it easier for poor people but still you might imagine a situation where you had to decide between giving a lamb to the priest or to your parents. Also I could imagine deciding whether to break the law that says to stay outside camp (until you have offered your lamb) in order to work to feed your parents. Now I do agree if the rest of society did their job and provided for the poor this situation wouldn't happen but such is not always the case.

Mat 8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
Mar 1:29 And forthwith, when they were come out of the synagogue, they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.


I have no reason to believe that this house didn't belong to Peter.

. . .
Oh, I just thought of something else. After Jesus was crucified Peter and Andrew returned to their fishing business, so obviously they still owned their boat.

This does run me into a problem. I take Mark 10:28 literally since he says it in context of the rich young ruler and Jesus' statements about the kingdom of heaven after that. (which I see as communal) The rich young ruler was literally asked to give up his possessions. Mat 8:14 does indeed come after Matthew 4:19-20. The point about Peter and Andrew also may suggest even if this was literal it was only temporary.

Here's how I would resolve these things: The house was called Peter's and it was probably still legally owned by Peter yet I think he gave the community the right of usufruct over it. This is similar to the Essene communities if Eckhard J. Schnabel in his commentary on Acts 2:44 is correct:

". . . In Qumran, the surrender of one's property upon entry in the Qumran community was obligatory. The paradox that the members of the Essene community are said to contribute all their wealth, while they still appear to have retained private property, can be explained as follows: Jews in the ancient world did not regard the adjectives "private" and "public," when related to property, as mutually exclusive as we do today. Property that an individual "had" could be understood to "be" both for the individual and for the group. Thus, "the donor offers the right of usufruct to another but retains the right of ownership," a concept that explains the practice of shared property at Qumran. . . "
Acts

His footnote states: "The term "usufruct" is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "the right of temporary possession, use, or enjoyment of the advantages of the property belonging to another, so far as may be had without causing damage or prejudice to this""

. . .
It's clear both from Jesus' statement and the widows statement in Timothy that the parent's care was considered the responsibility of the children.
. . .
1Ti 5:4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
I will attempt to save my pet theory :) by postulating that not all the churches got to the same level of community as the church in Acts. Therefore normal providing for parents was still necessary to designate to children.

Thanks, this actually made me realize I needed to refine this part and that Schnabel's or a similar view of the Essene and Jewish culture might be required to make this theory work. (EDIT: I actually realized the thing about the churches needing to be at different levels a while back, the Schnabel view I had read but almost forgotten about except that he used a weird word "usufruct" :) )
 
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RDKirk

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29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

Notice that it talks about receiving "hundredfold now in this time" of houses, family members, and lands. The only way this can be fulfilled in this life is if it is talking about joining a close-knit community that is like a family and shares all their houses and lands completely.

Thanks so much for the perceptive critiques. EDIT: However I would like it someone could address my original evidence containing three points directly, is there a flaw in the logic here? (I did change the first point slightly and added a conclusion)

1 The apostles were commanded to give up everything: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus' disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20
4 Therefore all disciples of Christ were commanded to give up everything.

All the believers were together and had everything in common. --Acts 2

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. - Acts 4

In Genesis 41, Joseph tells us that when the Lord says something twice, He means it.

We see that in practice, "given up everything" meant considering all things in common. However, we also see that they maintained control until the need was shown. Thus, they are actually operating as stewards of the Master's property (the parable of the good steward of Luke 12 is in play here) So a man who owned a farm maintained control of the farm, using its profit for the good of those who needed it.
 
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Hank77

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Here's how I would resolve these things: The house was called Peter's and it was probably still legally owned by Peter yet I think he gave the community the right of usufruct over it. This is similar to the Essene communities if Eckhard J. Schnabel in his commentary on Acts 2:44 is correct:
I don't have enough information about Peter's house to make a determination either way.
From what I have read about the Essenes I've pictured their community rather like that of Catholic or Buddhist monks or even a convent.
 
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1 John 4:1

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@Hank77
Come to think of it, I stayed at a commune for a little while and there were a bunch of different houses that were close together. I could imagine referring to the houses by the people staying in them. (although I don't remember if that happened while I was there) So the idea that Peter owned the house may not necessarily be the case--it may just be a way to reference the house. Also the boat could have been kept by their group so that they and Jesus could travel on the sea of Galilee for their ministry. After Jesus was crucified they could have easily started using it for other purposes again. Just something to think about.

Also I wanted to clarify something about what I mean by "situational" I basically saying this because I don't want people to believe this and then join a cult. I think the verses before Luke 14:33 make the case that this decision should be made carefully. I don't necessarily think the community needs to be exactly like the one Jesus had or the church in Acts.

@RDKirk
That's pretty close to my view. I do however think that if the community deemed it useful then the property would be sold. I know there are objections to this so you can look at something on that below from a paper on this topic that I helped write. (apologies didn't have time to remove all the LaTeX formatting) The section starts by talking about the church in Acts keeping all things in common (this was before I considered the usufruct idea to be important and I may have to rewrite some of this later)

Let's look at Acts 4:
"and of the multitude of those who did believe the heart and the soul was one, and not one was saying that anything of the things he had was his own, but all things were to them in common." (Acts 4:32)

Some people will focus on the phrase "the things he had" (in many translations "the things he possessed") to say that ownership was retained. However, one could simply instead focus on the phrase "all things in common." However, how do we resolve these seemingly conflicting statements? If I share with someone I still say that my possessions are my own. However, if someone asks me "is that yours?" and I say "no" how would anyone know it belongs to me? that is, I have given them away by my statement. The "things he possessed" must be talking about the things they had with them. Essentially, this can't be a state of ownership otherwise it would contradict the "all things in common" statement.
Young's Literal (quoted above) seems to be correct in not implying ownership by saying "the things he had." Also, Thayer's Greek Lexicon (although it does mention it as meaning property) has the definition that the usage in Acts 4:32 falls under as "2. to come forth, hence to be there, be ready, be at hand . . ." as does Strong's.\cite{possessions thayer's strong's} G5224 is also translated as "existed" in the Apostolic Bible Polyglot.\cite{G5224 apostolic bible polyglot}

To add further evidence that they really did keep things in common the same word in Titus 1:4 is used for the "common" faith here: "To Titus, a true son in our common G2839 faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." (Titus 1:4) as well as in Jude: "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common G2839 salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 3)
Even Eckhard J. Schnabel who doesn't believe the church in Acts literally kept things in common admits that possibility from the language, but goes on to cite context which he thinks makes that possibility less preferable.\cite{Essenes common property} There are some parallels between Achan and Ananias that you can read about in the appendix section "Achan and Ananias" which also discusses evidence that the reason the punishment was so severe was that in both cases they took the Lord's name in vain.

"3 And Peter said, `Ananias, wherefore did the Adversary fill thy heart, for thee to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back of the price of the place?
4 while it remained, did it not remain thine? and having been sold, in thy authority was it not? why [is] it that thou didst put in thy heart this thing? thou didst not lie to men, but to God;'" (Acts 5:3-4 YLT)
Many commentators take this as "this wasn't required in any way." This may not be true, since all Peter is saying is that you had a free choice in selling the land and giving the money, not that it wasn't required to do this to be added to the church. Some commentators assert this as proof that no one was forced to give up their possessions. However, this confuses the issue since it is quite obvious from the new testament that Christians weren't forced to give up their possessions by the church leaders. The issue here is whether this was required for a deeper belonging in the church.

"3 And Peter said, `Ananias, wherefore did the Adversary fill thy heart, for thee to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back of the price of the place?
4 while it remained, did it not remain thine? and having been sold, in thy authority was it not? why [is] it that thou didst put in thy heart this thing? thou didst not lie to men, but to God;'" (Acts 5:3-4)
Many commentators take this as "this wasn't required in any way." This may not be true, since all Peter is saying is that you had a free choice in selling the land and giving the money, not that it wasn't required to do this to be added to the church. Some commentators assert this as proof that no one was forced to give up their possessions. However, this confuses the issue since it is quite obvious from the new testament that Christians weren't forced to give up their possessions by the church leaders. The issue here is whether this was required for a deeper belonging in the church.

In addition to what we've already discussed the following is another hint that this was about a deeper belonging.
\begin{quote}
"10 and she fell down presently at his feet, and expired, and the young men having come in, found her dead, and having carried forth, they buried [her] by her husband;
11 and great fear came upon all the assembly, and upon all who heard these things.
12 And through the hands of the apostles came many signs and wonders among the people, and they were with one accord all in the porch of Solomon;
13 and of the rest no one was daring to join G2853 himself to them, but the people were magnifying them,
14 (and the more were believers added G4369 to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women,)" (Acts 5:10-14)
\end{quote}
Compare that with where the same word for "added" is used:
\begin{quote}
41then those, indeed, who did gladly receive his word were baptized, and there were added G4369 on that day, as it were, three thousand souls, . . .
44 and all those believing were at the same place, and had all things common,
45 and the possessions and the goods they were selling, and were parting them to all, according as any one had need.
46 Daily also continuing with one accord in the temple, breaking also at every house bread, they were partaking of food in gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people, and the Lord was adding G4369 those being saved every day to the assembly. (Acts 2)
\end{quote}

While the word translated "join" is actually less intimate than it sounds and just means to get next to:
"And the Spirit said to Philip, `Go near, and be joined G4369 to this chariot;'"
(Acts 8:29)
It is also used for employment:
"and having gone on, he joined G4369 himself to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him to the fields to feed swine,"
(Luke 15:15)
In 1 Corinthians 6:16 it is used for sexual intimacy but in a totally different context so I think we can regard this word as less intimate in this context.

Therefore the general population are those referred to when it says "no one dared to join himself to them." The place where they didn't dare join is on Solomon's Porch; i.e. to fellowship with them. The incident with Ananias and Saphira would have scared others who weren't serious about giving up their possessions. Yet it says "And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, 15 so as into the broad places to bring forth the ailing, and to lay [them] upon couches and mats, that at the coming of Peter, even [his] shadow might overshadow some one of them;" This refers to those who were added to the commune since in the next verse it says: "16 and there were coming together also the people of the cities round about to Jerusalem, bearing ailing persons, and those harassed by unclean spirits -- who were all healed." This means that the incident with Ananias would have scared people who just wanted to casually be around them or wanted to pretend to be part of them but that it wouldn't have deterred people who were serious about being added to the church and giving up their possessions. The same idea is foreshadowed in the Tanahk, see: \ref{foreshadowing in the tanahk}

In addition to "common" G2839 can mean "profane".\cite{common faith} This is similar to the word H2764 used in the case of Achane in Joshua 7:1\cite{H2764 H2763} although there isn't a direct connection between the H2764 in Joshua 7:1 and G2839 in Acts 4:32 through the Septuagint.
This is possibly because the silver that Achane stole was supposed to be devoted to God: "But all the silver and gold, and vessels of bronze and iron, are consecrated to the Lord; they shall come into the treasury of the Lord.” (Joshua 6:19)
With Achane the property could be devoted to the temple or be profane, while in Acts maybe property could be devoted to the community or be profane. The word G3557 is used in both Acts 5:3 and Joshua 7:1 LXX for "stealing."

There is a pattern stated in Acts 4:32 and exemplified by Barnabas bringing all the money from the land and laying it at the Apostles feet. This is the pattern that Ananias and Saphira broke. It is true that they lied and that is why they were punished, but why was the punishment so severe? If they were simply punished for holding back (or stealing) according to the Torah they would be required to pay back the money they stole adding the 5th to it? Leviticus 6 covers this specifically including stealing through lying or swearing falsely about something, yet apparently that isn't what they did. So the punishment makes more sense if they were required to sell everything to join the Church (maybe as official members). Hence they violated Deuteronomy 5:11 and Exodus 20:7 "`Thou dost not take up the name of Jehovah thy God for a vain thing, for Jehovah acquitteth not him who taketh up His name for a vain thing."

Gesenius takes "vain" there to mean a "false witness." "Name" in Hebrew means "character" \cite{name means character} and the immediate context of many examples of violations of these commands (possibly both commands themselves) is about misrepresenting God's character by transgressing the law while in Israel, worshiping other gods, speaking evil of God, and swearing falsely among other things. There is a direct connection between Deuteronomy 5:11, Exodus 20:7 and Acts 5:3-4 since Peter describes what Ananias did as "lying to the holy Ghost." The word for "lying" is G5574 and is the root of one of the corresponding Greek words for the word "vain" (H7723) used in Deuteronomy 5:11 and Exodus 20:7. It is also the same word used for what Achane did in Joshua 7:11 G5574 in the Septuagint. Also in Joshua 24:27 it refers to idolatry as to "lie G5574 to the lord your God" (Apostolic Bible Polyglot) or "lest you deny H3584 your God." (NKJV) and there is a similar passage in Job 31:24-28 that not only refers to typical idolatry but says "If I have made gold my hope, Or said to fine gold, ‘You are my confidence’; . . . For I would have denied H3584 the God that is above" (NKJV) or "I lied G5574 before the lord of the highest" (Apostolic Bible Polyglot) \cite{in vain}
 
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1 John 4:1

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. . . POST CONTINUED

Essentially Ananias and Sapphira are claiming to be disciples of Christ but still worshiping money (since you cannot serve both God and money: Matthew 6:24, Luke 16:13) Therefore they were lying about becoming Christ's disciples according to Luke 14:33. When Achane directly violates a command of God in Joshua 7:1 and takes something, it causes all of Israel to become guilty. It's not just Achane but his whole family (who presumably collaborated with him to stash the loot in their tent). Likewise with Annias, Saphira is considered guilty for collaborating. This also may fit with the "taking God's name in vain" as is seen where the situation of Achan is listed next to the idolatry of Peor and the building of another alter (presumably to other gods) to rebel against the lord:
Joshua 22:16 “16 `Thus said all the company of Jehovah, What [is] this trespass which ye have trespassed against the God of Israel, to turn back to-day from after Jehovah, by your building for you an altar, for your rebelling to-day against Jehovah?

17 Is the iniquity of Peor little to us, from which we have not been cleansed till this day -- and the plague is in the company of Jehovah, . . . and against Jehovah rebel not, and against us rebel not, by your building for you an altar, besides the altar of Jehovah our God.
20 Did not Achan son of Zerah commit a trespass in the devoted thing, and on all the company of Israel there was wrath? and he alone expired not in his iniquity.'"

Hence the parallel may be stronger than one initially suspects with Ananias and Sapphira. It makes sense if to become a disciple one had to give up everything, and that if Luke 14:33 was a literal command from God, Ananias and Sapphira were violating this command just like Achan did while giving the impression that they were still a member of the body, both were worshiping money instead of God.
 
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W2L

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1 Corinthians 7:29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
 
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RDKirk

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Some people will focus on the phrase "the things he had" (in many translations "the things he possessed") to say that ownership was retained. However, one could simply instead focus on the phrase "all things in common." However, how do we resolve these seemingly conflicting statements? If I share with someone I still say that my possessions are my own. However, if someone asks me "is that yours?" and I say "no" how would anyone know it belongs to me? that is, I have given them away by my statement. The "things he possessed" must be talking about the things they had with them. Essentially, this can't be a state of ownership otherwise it would contradict the "all things in common" statement.

I don't have any difficulties with the concept of stewardship of the Master's resources and the duties of that steward as expressed in Luke 12.

The foundation is the understanding that the steward owns nothing. He is entrusted with resources by which to do the will of the Master.

This is something I understand in a practical matter from my military career, when at various times I was set as a "steward" of supplies or buildings or even people. I had no "ownership" of any of them. They were all for the purpose of the commander and his mission. His expectation was that I would maintain them properly and utilize them by his command. And in the military, there will always be an accounting of one's stewardship--the commander will always sooner or later make an inspection. When one does a good job maintaining a small stewardship, he is rewarded with a larger stewardship--also exactly as in scripture.

So Acts 2 and Acts 4 do not present me with concepts I have not experienced. There is no "ownership" involved, it's stewardship, and the job of a steward is to maintain the Master's resources and dispense them according to the Master's mission and purpose.
 
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joshua 1 9

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why do you believe the Lord taught us this in the first place (that we need to give up all of our possessions if we want to be His disciple)?
God waited until I want to a third world nation to show me the meaning of this scripture. If we SEE people that have a need greater then our own then we should give what we can because of our love for them. For example if we see that people are hungry then we are not going to over eat or waste food. We take what we need and pass the rest onto other what have a need greater then our own.
 
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