Photo of Students Praying Sparks Anti-Christian Hatred

timewerx · Apr 28, 2018

Mskriskris said:
Yes to add on, He prayed in public for the little children that came to Him.

Heck He prayed right in front of everyone while being crucified.

Jesus only laid His hands on the children although the parents also requested prayer.

There is nothing in Matthew 19:15 to suggest Jesus also prayed for them in the Greek translation.

Of course in the cross. He basically couldn't go anywhere and have no choice but to pray right where He is.

Jesus did demonstrate that some rules can be broken if there are more pressing matters at hand (like rescuing a person or animal in distress during Sabbath). Of course, Jesus needed to pray at that moment despite lacking discretion of being at the cross.

In much more convenient times, Jesus did find places away from people in order to pray.

RDKirk · Apr 28, 2018

Radagast said:
I don't know about "spectacle."

It seems to have been a communal meal on the night of their high school prom. Being a big social event, these students naturally shared their high school prom photos with their friends.

I did not say the kids created the spectacle. In my post, I pointed out that the kids appeared to be in a private party.

I said the person who posted it publicly in social media created the spectacle. If you read the article, that was not one of the kids.

salt-n-light · Apr 28, 2018

timewerx said:
Jesus only laid His hands on the children although the parents also requested prayer.

There is nothing in Matthew 19:15 to suggest Jesus also prayed for them in the Greek translation.

Of course in the cross. He basically couldn't go anywhere and have no choice but to pray right where He is.

Jesus did demonstrate that some rules can be broken if there are more pressing matters at hand (like rescuing a person or animal in distress during Sabbath). Of course, Jesus needed to pray at that moment despite lacking discretion of being at the cross.

In much more convenient times, Jesus did find places away from people in order to pray.

He prayed in public, that's the point. And He did pray in both instances among people, he laid hands and PRAYED on the kids. When he said "Father forgive them for they no not what they do" that is a PRAYER.

Just like the people in the article prayed in public. They didn't go yelling and disturbing others from eating, they weren't in the middle of the restaurant blocking people from getting to their seats. They exercise their freedom of giving thanks in their own table.

Your main argument is that Jesus forbids public prayer based on a scripture that was meant to address the heart of the Pharisees. That's very legalistic to say that somehow this is law, and that the people go are giving a thanks are deserving of punishment.

I don't get the logic of that nor how you reason out in your heart that this is a sin worthy of shame, both by the hands of unbelievers and by the judgement you are presenting in your post.

RDKirk · Apr 28, 2018

timewerx said:
If the window is at least waist high up (like many windows are, including ancient ones), Daniel would not be visible outside the window when he knelt down to pray.

Daniel was visible through the window.

However, the point of the story is that Daniel's enemies devised a particular trap for him, and although aware of the trap, Daniel yet did not his prayer activity. Daniel did not decide to be more public or less public, he continued to do what he'd always done.

Inasmuch as he was a high official, it probably took some effort to see him through his window, so I would not argue he was praying in public. But the point is that he did not change his activity.

RDKirk · Apr 28, 2018

timewerx said:
Jesus only laid His hands on the children although the parents also requested prayer.

There is nothing in Matthew 19:15 to suggest Jesus also prayed for them in the Greek translation.

Of course in the cross. He basically couldn't go anywhere and have no choice but to pray right where He is.

Jesus did demonstrate that some rules can be broken if there are more pressing matters at hand (like rescuing a person or animal in distress during Sabbath). Of course, Jesus needed to pray at that moment despite lacking discretion of being at the cross.

In much more convenient times, Jesus did find places away from people in order to pray.

You're trying to argue that people should never pray in public. Sorry, regardless of your continuing to debate the issue, you've already been shown it was not the case that Jesus actively avoided praying in public.

Jesus prayed whenever and wherever it was optimum to pray in order to carry out His work. He prayed a lot in private, He prayed in public when prayer was necessary to do what He needed to do. If prayer was needed for the moment, He prayed at that moment. He did not avoid praying--ever.

Inkfingers · Apr 28, 2018

The very fact of declaring yourself Christian will be taken by some people as making a show of yourself.

Ignore them and those who would decry saying grace in public.

salt-n-light · Apr 28, 2018

If someone in the middle of the street was to ask for prayer, would you not stop what you're doing and pray for them on the spot?

Is the expectation for a Christian to wait for the right setting to pray, or to invite them to church and pray with them there. Or would you tell them "well I'll pray for you when I get home". Would God honor you passing that opportunity to show Gods glory for the sake of doing it only in secret?

That wouldn't be humility, it would be cowardness.

Christian are Christians every moment, we are called every moment to show Gods glory to honor Him. I really don't see the logic that there is only specific times and settings that you are allowed and justified to talk to your Father, to boast about His goodness, or to bring others to the Father.

It's kinda silly.

Inkfingers · Apr 28, 2018

Mskriskris said:
If someone in the middle of the street was to ask for prayer, would you not stop what you're doing and pray for them on the spot?

Is the expectation for a Christian to wait for the right setting to pray, or to invite them to church and pray with them there. Or would you tell them "well I'll pray for you when I get home".

Christian are Christians every moment, we are called every moment to show Gods glory to honor Him. I really don't see the logic that there is only specific times and settings that you are allowed and justified to talk to your Father, or to bring others to the Father.

It's kinda silly.

Yup.

Don't hide your light under a bushel, hide it in your closet...said no gospel passage ever.

timewerx · Apr 28, 2018

RDKirk said:
You're trying to argue that people should never pray in public. Sorry, regardless of your continuing to debate the issue, you've already been shown it was not the case that Jesus actively avoided praying in public.

Read my post #61.

Yes, I'm aware of the few occassions Jesus prayed in public but it also coincided with very difficult circumstances like the night before Jesus was arrested (prayed with His disciples) and at the cross.

But no one seem to be acknowledging the fact in normal days, Jesus would prefer to pray away from people. It coincides with His instruction in Matthew 6:6.

Luke 5:16
But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.

timewerx · Apr 28, 2018

Mskriskris said:
He prayed in public, that's the point. And He did pray in both instances among people, he laid hands and PRAYED on the kids. When he said "Father forgive them for they no not what they do" that is a PRAYER.

When other people saw Jesus pray, it coincided with difficult situations.

But during easier days, Jesus preferred to pray alone and retreated to desolate (remote/without people) places (Luke 5:16)

Your main argument is that Jesus forbids public prayer based on a scripture that was meant to address the heart of the Pharisees. That's very legalistic to say that somehow this is law, and that the people go are giving a thanks are deserving of punishment.

I agree with you on Matthew 6:5.

But what about Christ's instructions in Matthew 6:6? And the fact that He practiced it (Luke 5:16).

I don't get the logic of that nor how you reason out in your heart that this is a sin worthy of shame, both by the hands of unbelievers and by the judgement you are presenting in your post.

I'm not saying it's a sin. Jesus didn't say it is a sin. Jesus is simply saying "don't behave like the hypocrites in prayer".

In several occassions, Jesus corrected His disicples when they behave or think like pagans. It's not unusual for a disciple to behave in a manner that Jesus doesn't like. It's still way better to do things in ways that pleases Him even if it's not a sin to do otherwise.

timewerx · Apr 28, 2018

Mskriskris said:
If someone in the middle of the street was to ask for prayer, would you not stop what you're doing and pray for them on the spot?

You should pray with them of course. But you should still attempt to go somewhere less conspicuous.

But if such opportunity does not present itself, you can pray with them on the spot.

Rules can be overridden if something more important is at hand. Mercy towards others is still a higher priority.

timewerx · Apr 28, 2018

RDKirk said:
Daniel was visible through the window.

However, the point of the story is that Daniel's enemies devised a particular trap for him, and although aware of the trap, Daniel yet did not his prayer activity. Daniel did not decide to be more public or less public, he continued to do what he'd always done.

Inasmuch as he was a high official, it probably took some effort to see him through his window, so I would not argue he was praying in public. But the point is that he did not change his activity.

He would look suspicious if Daniel changed his routine.

So I think Daniel did the right thing. God wouldn't want us to face unnecessary danger or risks anyway unless it brought glory to Him.

2Timothy2:15 · Apr 28, 2018

timewerx said:
Jesus instructed us *NOT* to pray in places we could be seen by others.

Even Jesus would NOT like seeing this picture. They brought it upon themselves for not following Christ's instructions.

Matthew 6:5-6
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Jesus prayed publicly when he raised Lazarus from the dead. I think Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees for public prayer because of their motive, not because it was public alone. He was rebuking them because their reason for doing it publicly was to be noticed and looked at as spiritual.

2Timothy2:15 · Apr 28, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Photo of praying students should be celebrated, so why is it sparking anti-Christian hatred instead?

Photo of praying students should be celebrated, so why is it sparking anti-Christian hatred instead?

Let's just be honest, those who have a problem with this are anti-christ, anti- christian and only reveal their total hypocrisy. The left is screaming about tolerance to homosexuals, trans, muslims, etc but hate everything that has to do with the true GOD and his Son Jesus.

RDKirk · Apr 28, 2018

timewerx said:
Read my post #61.

Yes, I'm aware of the few occassions Jesus prayed in public but it also coincided with very difficult circumstances like the night before Jesus was arrested (prayed with His disciples) and at the cross.

But no one seem to be acknowledging the fact in normal days, Jesus would prefer to pray away from people. It coincides with His instruction in Matthew 6:6.

Luke 5:16
But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.

Nobody is arguing that Jesus never prayed in private and not even that He didn't do it often.

I expect everyone on this thread would agree that Jesus spent much of every night in private prayer.

You're raising a strawman argument.

RDKirk · Apr 28, 2018

timewerx said:
When other people saw Jesus pray, it coincided with difficult situations.

Scripture shows that Jesus prayed over His meals. Nothing difficult about that.

John 1720 · Apr 28, 2018

timewerx said:
Jesus instructed us *NOT* to pray in places we could be seen by others.

Even Jesus would NOT like seeing this picture. They brought it upon themselves for not following Christ's instructions.

Matthew 6:5-6
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Hi Timewerx,
While I agree with you that Jesus taught us that individually we should pray in solitude and certainly not with intent to appear as holy or self-righteous, your interpretation of what Jesus is saying is perhaps a bit hyperbolic. Let's remember where and how many were in front of Him when He said this. We have to go back a chapter to Matthew 5 for that. There were multitudes present and it says His disciple, not only Apostles, came to Him while He spoke.

Commentary David Brown said:
Mat 5:1-16. THE BEATITUDES, AND THEIR BEARING UPON THE WORLD.
1. And seeing the multitudes--those mentioned in Mat 4:25.
he went up into a mountain--one of the dozen mountains which ROBINSON says there are in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee, any one of them answering about equally well to the occasion. So charming is the whole landscape that the descriptions of it, from JOSEPHUS downwards [Wars of the Jews, 4.10,8], are apt to be thought a little colored.
and when he was set--had sat or seated Himself.
his disciples came unto him--already a large circle, more or less attracted and subdued by His preaching and miracles, in addition to the smaller band of devoted adherents. Though the latter only answered to the subjects of His kingdom, described in this discourse, there were drawn from time to time into this inner circle souls from the outer one, who, by the power of His matchless word, were constrained to forsake their all for the Lord Jesus.
2. And he opened his mouth--a solemn way of arousing the reader's attention, and preparing him for something weighty. ( Job 9:1 Act 8:35 10:34 ).
and taught them, saying--as follows.

And although His primary purpose was diadatic, even about prayer, there can be no doubt what Jesus did publically was indeed pray to the Father.

Matthew 6:9-13 "Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen."

Obviously Jesus was not in His prayer closet or alone when He gave us the high priestly prayer of John 17 with all the apostles in the room either. Yet the intimacy of His prayer in front of all suggest corporate prayer among them was expected.

Jesus High Priestly prayer for Himself said:
Jesus Prays for Himself
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should [fn1] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Obviously Jesus was not praying to be seen of men but praying quite intimately for all His disciples in a corporate way by which not only those in the room would be edified but the billions who would hear His prayer that have believed through the words of His apostles, which are recorded in the New Tetament - in this case the apostle John.
Lastly we come to the act of the blessing. Jesus did this when He blessed the children and also many time when he blessed the food in front of large crowds. He was not being hypocritical in doing so but honoring the blessings the Father had bestowed, recognizing them as blessing and thereby publically honoring His Father. If you look at the picture that is exactly what these individuals are doing. They have joined hands to thank the Father for the blessings of food that has been put before them in order to remember where they came from and to honor God with their thanksgiving. Below are several examples where Jesus did the same.

Matt 14:19 Then He commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass. And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitudes.
Matt 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
Mark 6:41 And when He had taken the five loaves and the two fish, He looked up to heaven, blessed and broke the loaves, and gave them to His disciples to set before them; and the two fish He divided among them all.
Mark 14:22 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
Luke 9:16 Then He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke them, and gave them to the disciples to set before the multitude.
Luke 24:30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them.

So we shouldn't interpret the Jesus' words so rigidly when we are trying to truly understand God's heart. Yes, we are NOT to try and make ourselves look holier than thou, like the Pharisees did. Yes, we are called individually to seek the Father in solitude, just as Jesus did many times away from His disciples. But there is room for corporate prayer among believers and publically thanking God for His blessings and the prayer of blessing for large groups of people is also Biblical and in keeping with the heart of God among His people.
Certainly I don't think for a minute these young people were showing a holier than thou attitude in thanking God for their meal. In fact in this day and age we are ostracized for wanting to thank God in public. The other alternative for these folks would have been to diss thanking God for His provision altogether, which to me would be unchristian.

I do not agree with your conjecture that Jesus would not like seeing this picture. He would be glad these few remember to honor His Father in a world that seems bent on dishonoring Him.
In Christ, Patrick

FreeinChrist · Apr 28, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Photo of praying students should be celebrated, so why is it sparking anti-Christian hatred instead?

Photo of praying students should be celebrated, so why is it sparking anti-Christian hatred instead?

I suspect there were some that didn't like it because of varied reasons, but the article is FOX faux outrage, like the 'war on Christmas" stuff. FOX is making more of it that it is.

DamianWarS · Apr 28, 2018

timewerx said:
It looks like a public restaurant and there's at least 1 other person behind the group who's not with them.

And then someone with them took their picture, and one of their moms gave it to a journalist according to the story....

I'm pretty sure, taking a picture of yourselves praying and that picture easily making its way to a journalist (a journalist, of all people, seriously) is certainly not discreet enough.

Anway, I'm not blaming those kids entirely. Most churches, pastors, ministry leaders, aren't discrete with prayers themselves and chose NOT to follow Matthew 6:6 even if they easily have the choice to be discreet.

Again not prayer but giving thanks. I know those two are lumped together but if we are going to use biblical scrutiny then let's give it the right context.

timewerx · Apr 28, 2018

RDKirk said:
Scripture shows that Jesus prayed over His meals. Nothing difficult about that.

Jesus gave thanks to God that's what I have read in the Bible. Even in Greek translation, different word used compared to prayer.

Even Christ's behavior in giving thanks is different than prayer. Doesn't need to be discreet about it. But prayer, he often does. But giving thanks is very short.

Photo of Students Praying Sparks Anti-Christian Hatred

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