John 3:16 - How is this claim justified?

Wordkeeper said:

The gospel of John (AKA johnny-boy) is well known for its play on words. Here the play of word can only work in the Greek. Jesus said born from above, but ole Nic understood it as born again, both meanings possible for anOthen. Here's the thing. The skeptics/atheists say the incident was fabricated. Nic and Chris would never speek in Greek and the play in word would never work in Aramaic! Google Bart Ehrman and "did Jesus speak Greek" for details.

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The gospel as I understand it is written in Greek.

So how or why would that mean or equal that they spoke in Greek?

RaymondG said:

I believe that the NT is just the OT retold. The gospel message can be seen in the OT(many times), and the plan of salvation has never changed. If you believed and understood Moses, you would believe and Understand Jesus. Therefore the claim can be justified as there is no reason to have read any extra books....Just needed the truth to be revealed in the words you already know....

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Can you please give me any verse, book chapter and verse, in the OT, that teaches the "gospel message".

Josephus said:

Every Christian (should) know John 3:16:

For G-d so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life.

When Nicodemus heard this, there was no Matthew through Revelation. The only scriptures he knew was only Genesis through 2nd Chronicles - otherwise known as the Torah and the Prophets and the Writings - and he was an expert at them since he himself was a member of the religious body known as the Sanhedrin which ruled on all things scriptural for Israel.

How could Jesus make such a claim in light of the scriptures that came before? How could Nicodemus accept what Jesus said there, as truth? Did Jesus come to found a new religion? Or was his appeal to Nicodemus' knowledge of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, a sincere appeal, and thus his rebuke "do you not understand these things" justified?

I have made myself out to be an apologist (a reasoned defender of what we believe) since I was in my teens. I'm now in my late 30s. I haven't changed much, but my answers have matured for sure.

As such, I have answers of my own, to this question I'm asking above, and will be happy to share, but I am curious as to what your answers are - to see if I can spur to share or come up with an answer that will satisfy the question while also preventing giving the other religions and philosophies often discussed on Christian Forums, any justification for maintaining their claims. Truth, I believe, is really that precise, certain, and dividing.

This verse is the most basic of verses a Christian should know. Can you justify it to a Jewish religious leader? How?

Shalom

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Jesus appealed to the Scriptures that Nicodemus was aware of, for He says quite blatantly in the preceding verse: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-15)

You can attempt to justify almost anything. Why should that be my aim? When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He spoke the truth in love in an effort to graciously invite Nicodemus to receive salvation in Christ. The Jews made their interpretation of the OT back then, and they were often erroneous. Hence, we see the Sadducees, Pharisees, and other sects mentioned in the NT. Nowadays, not much has changed.

The Lord gave the correct meaning of the prophetic OT texts known to the Israelites of that time, making mention of Moses, the one whom they all claimed to be following to salvation in God. Jesus makes it clear in this passage that the Israelites in the time of Moses are not dissimilar to Nicodemus and contemporary Israel and, indeed, all of the world. Thus, Christ explains that He Himself is actually the fulfillment of the golden serpent lifted in the wilderness by Moses, which prefigured what the Lord would eventually accomplish through His crucifixion. This is why the Lord says, "as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up."

Those familiar with this passage would definitely be those who studied Moses, which at that time were the religious groups like the Pharisees and Sadducees. Nicodemus, being a Pharisee, was quite familiar with this citation, but it was clear by Christ's teaching that Nicodemus did not perceive the deeper spiritual meaning found in the OT scripture. What Christ was saying to Nicodemus should be incredibly clear to anyone with spiritual understanding. Nicodemus, being a teacher of the people, should have understood better than most that the Scriptures are to be spiritually discerned and not to be considered merely a historical text. For, tell me, what spiritual application could be gleaned from such a passage as the one that Jesus cited? What would Nicodemus have taught the people with regards to this text? It is most likely that this teacher of Israel, as the Lord calls him, largely ignored this passage when imparting spiritual lessons to the people. So, now, what has changed? Don't the Jews continue to do that?

What's more, I am confident that most of them were unaware of the prophecies embedded in many of the OT scriptures. We see Jesus expounding the Scriptures constantly throughout all the Gospel accounts. This encounter with Nicodemus happens to be one of those instances.

An apologist is not an evangelist and does not bring people to salvation. An apologist defends the Church from heresies and all manner of falsehood.

Haipule said:

Can you please give me any verse, book chapter and verse, in the OT, that teaches the "gospel message".

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Basically all of it. Many Times in Gen: fall of Adam and Eve, Moses leading Israel out of Egypt, Abraham and Sarah, Joseph, noah and the Ark, Lot............. The books of Job, Joshua....the list goes on.

But it is unlikely that Jesus will be understood, if Moses wasn't.....For all the law and the prophets spoke of Him.....Hence it is very understandable that Jesus and his message was rejected....

Haipule said:

I would say that every first century Jew was forced to learn Greek to communicate with the outside world(because of Alexander the Great). Forced to speak Latin to speak to the Romans and forced to speak Aramaic to each other. Most were illiterate(could not read or write but, could communicate). I believe that Jesus could also/as well as, read and understand Hebrew and could probably speak it as well.

There wasn't much choice otherwise, in the first century.

I don't see how "again" is even possible with anOthen. Every other time it appears such as John 3:31:

"He who comes from above(anOthen) is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth He who comes from heaven is above all. John 3:31 NASB

James 1:17:

Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above(anOthen), coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. James 1:17 NASB

--it is translated properly as "from-above" accept here--RED FLAGS! Yet, I understand that some think "re" is a good translation of ana(up--primary Greek preposition always establishing an "up" relationship). I do not except any translation that does not recognize the up or, authoritative position that ana represents.

The authoritative relationships of Greek prepositions is absolutely vital to the understanding of the whole. Anything else is just manipulation!

I am not "born again"! Rather, I am a citizen of the kingdom of heaven 'from above', from the house of my Father and placed in an authoritative position to be as called! (and so are you!)

Just because Nicky-Boy confused the issue of time does not mean we should confuse the issue of place that Jesus established!

Nic's words are NOT God's Word just like Job's whining is not God's thoughts. Although they are a part of the Word of God, they do NOT represent God, or His thinking!

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Regarding:
I don't see how "again" is even possible with anOthen.

If anOthen cannot be understood as again, anew, why did Nicodemus understand it that way?

John 3
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”

ToBeLoved said:

The gospel as I understand it is written in Greek.

So how or why would that mean or equal that they spoke in Greek?

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Why would two Jews speak in Greek?

Wordkeeper said:

Why would two Jews speak in Greek?

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That’s what you seem to have said in post #59.

Haipule said:

Can you please give me any verse, book chapter and verse, in the OT, that teaches the "gospel message".

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Isa. 52:13-53:12, 53:5,6,10,11 Blessings

Josephus said:

The gospel is found in Genesis 3:16:
Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.

This teaches us that when we desire our husband, that is, the Messiah, the promise is that he will rule over us - in the World to Come.

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Why not the protoevangelium known as the 'first gospel,' Gen. 3: 15, which points to Jesus defeating evil as the Savior? Blessings

Josephus said:

The gospel is found in Genesis 3:16:
Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.

This teaches us that when we desire our husband, that is, the Messiah, the promise is that he will rule over us - in the World to Come.

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Huh? Can you explain that more.

No need for Christ then.

What were the Hebrews/Israelites waiting for then?

Josephus said:

Can you justify it to a Jewish religious leader?

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There were a few rabbis who thought some of the messianic verses in the Hebrew Bible referred to someone more than a mere human political leader who would restore Israel to its true glory. Jesus came to demonstrate that he was the messiah based on a different viewpoint of what the messiah was to be. Only by accepting the claims Jesus made about himself and who he was, can anyone understand such concepts correctly. In other words, the Jewish concept of messiah at the time of Jesus had become corrupted, if it was ever properly understood at all.

You can't prove this to anyone who won't believe the teachings of the Christian apostles regarding Jesus.

jesus316 said:

There were a few rabbis who thought some of the messianic verses in the Hebrew Bible referred to someone more than a mere human political leader who would restore Israel to its true glory. Jesus came to demonstrate that he was the messiah based on a different viewpoint of what the messiah was to be. Only by accepting the claims Jesus made about himself and who he was, can anyone understand such concepts correctly. In other words, the Jewish concept of messiah at the time of Jesus had become corrupted, if it was ever properly understood at all.

You can't prove this to anyone who won't believe the teachings of the Christian apostles regarding Jesus.

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According to Jesus His message was the same as that of the prophets from Moses to Himself. Note, the reaction from Israel was always the same.

Matthew 21
33“Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 34“When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. 35“The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. 36“Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. 37“But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38“But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39“They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40“Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?” 41They said to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.”

42Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,

‘THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES’?


The Message
Don´t be like the world, working for temporary benefits that rusted and spoiled. Using human means.

Be like Abraham, who learned to depend on God for eternal life, kingdom living, with food, clothing, and even security, preservation of life added to him. The prophets, including Jesus said many things, but please separate out the central message:

Matthew 6
33"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

The Reaction
If a group received the message, they were divided, father turned against children, brother against sister, and whoever believed was persecuted. Joshua and Caleb believed and were almost stoned. Note, Israel as a group never believed, they always killed the prophets.

Reflection on why the Message was Rejected
Being born from above was to repent, meta noia, change your mind that life was about filling hunger which required filling when one hungered again, working for temporary benefits and in the process exploiting others for self interest, change it to a mind set that life was about subduing creation, completing , perfecting what God started, the task given to Adam, possible only when God was with you. A horse is fulfilled only when it is harnessed, bridled. Creation is only complete, when it is brought under control. Man is only perfected when he abandons self interest and follows Christ. Being born from above is a noble change, above having that connotation, as opposed to below. It's also being born again, a transformation.


However, anyone will tell you it's impractical. Can God really feed you like He does the birds of the air? No wonder Israel rejected it. No wonder father turns against son, brother against sibling.

Choose today whom you will serve.

Mammon, for benefits that rust and perish

Or
God, for permanent benefits.

Also
Be compliant with the Mosaic Covenant for eternal life

Or
Be compliant with the New Covenant to be a blessing to the world in multiple ways.

Matthew 19
16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Matthew 10
41"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Wordkeeper said:

Regarding:
I don't see how "again" is even possible with anOthen.

If anOthen cannot be understood as again, anew, why did Nicodemus understand it that way?

John 3
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”

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Dude! Nicky-Boy did not understand a word of it at that time! Yet, he went to Jesus desiring to be taught and given an understanding. Obviously, from later verses, Nicky-Boy eventually got it. However, the entire church, to this day, remains clueless! Why?

Because, the church does not understand the zOE-live of God's promised joy in the absence of strife discombobulated as "peace"!

Anti-Semitic "church fathers" = cluelessness!

Therefore, the entire church, from the beginning, will always be the first and the least among us all--including John the Baptist whom was pre-kingdom! The potential for us all is to be the last and foremost of all of human history!

Yet, to be waned off of that firstness nonsense arrogance is not easy. Especially when those firstlings claim "Apostolic Decent", "Holy Tradition" and "Spirit Filled" and "spiritual gift", holier-then-thou-ness which, according to them, cannot possibly be lying! Yet, all who claim that same nonsense call all other gifted and spirt filled teachers--liars!

Yet, they claim to me that these things are "spiritually" understood and I am just too "fleshly" to comprehend there complete nonsense! Ridiculous!!!

I have been a son of the living God enjoying my sonship since I was born!

I had to learn this despite of the theologies I was told was truth. Having ventured into the life of God's promised joy, I figured out that the clergy cannot teach life to us through there fragrant aroma of death because we are called to be a fragrant aroma of life and to be glorified by God in such a life and NOT do die daily bearing some stupid cross!

"I set before you life and death, choose life that you my live."

Haipule said:

Dude! Nicky-Boy did not understand a word of it at that time! Yet, he went to Jesus desiring to be taught and given an understanding. Obviously, from later verses, Nicky-Boy eventually got it. However, the entire church, to this day, remains clueless! Why?

Because, the church does not understand the zOE-live of God's promised joy in the absence of strife discombobulated as "peace"!

Anti-Semitic "church fathers" = cluelessness!

Therefore, the entire church, from the beginning, will always be the first and the least among us all--including John the Baptist whom was pre-kingdom! The potential for us all is to be the last and foremost of all of human history!

Yet, to be waned off of that firstness nonsense arrogance is not easy. Especially when those firstlings claim "Apostolic Decent", "Holy Tradition" and "Spirit Filled" and "spiritual gift", holier-then-thou-ness which, according to them, cannot possibly be lying! Yet, all who claim that same nonsense call all other gifted and spirt filled teachers--liars!

Yet, they claim to me that these things are "spiritually" understood and I am just too "fleshly" to comprehend there complete nonsense! Ridiculous!!!

I have been a son of the living God enjoying my sonship since I was born!

I had to learn this despite of the theologies I was told was truth. Having ventured into the life of God's promised joy, I figured out that the clergy cannot teach life to us through there fragrant aroma of death because we are called to be a fragrant aroma of life and to be glorified by God in such a life and NOT do die daily bearing some stupid cross!

"I set before you life and death, choose life that you my live."

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Apparently the conversation was in Greek where the word can mean either born from above or born again:

Quote
I like the note by the NET Bible ... quoted below:

8 tn The word ἄνωθεν (anwqen) has a double meaning, either “again” (in which case it is synonymous with παλίν [palin]) or “from above” (BDAG 92 s.v. ἄνωθεν). This is a favorite technique of the author of the Fourth Gospel, and it is lost in almost all translations at this point. John uses the word 5 times, in 3:3, 7; 3:31; 19:11 and 23. In the latter 3 cases the context makes clear that it means “from above.” Here (3:3, 7) it could mean either, but the primary meaning intended by Jesus is “from above.” Nicodemus apparently understood it the other way, which explains his reply, “How can a man be born when he is old? He can’t enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” The author uses the technique of the “misunderstood question” often to bring out a particularly important point: Jesus says something which is misunderstood by the disciples or (as here) someone else, which then gives Jesus the opportunity to explain more fully and in more detail what he really meant. sn Or born again. The Greek word ἄνωθεν (anwqen) can mean both “again” and “from above,” giving rise to Nicodemus’ misunderstanding about a second physical birth (v. 4).

It seems to be further confirmed when looking at Jesus' further explaination concerning "water and spirit" in His next statement ...

The NET note there explains that "water and spirit" further explain "from above".

What does "born again" from John 3:3 mean?

But the atheists say it's impossible for two Jews to discuss theology in Greek, so the talk never happened.

I agree the system in the church is unacceptable. We demand checks and balances in all organisations, but we have allowed the church to teach medieval theology full of superstition without critiquing it, questioning the bad theology, for too long. The teaching is illogical, and not well supported by the text or the themes presented by the text. With the internet, it is a good time to call the church out. Believers of the world, unite!

Wordkeeper said:

Regarding:
I don't see how "again" is even possible with anOthen.

If anOthen cannot be understood as again, anew, why did Nicodemus understand it that way?

John 3
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”

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I explained that already. Nicky-Boy was using anOthen in the sense of time(from the start) and Jesus used it in the sense of place(from above). Then Jesus quoted Nick-Boy exactly mocking his words. Nicky-Boy was confused and said something stupid.

That's kinda like quoting Job's whining and calling it truth because it's in the bible.

disciple Clint said:

Isa. 52:13-53:12, 53:5,6,10,11 Blessings

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Good answer! I was referring to "salvation" or, "how to be saved". Sorry I wasn't clear.

Haipule said:

I explained that already. Nicky-Boy was using anOthen in the sense of time(from the start) and Jesus used it in the sense of place(from above). Then Jesus quoted Nick-Boy exactly mocking his words. Nicky-Boy was confused and said something stupid.

That's kinda like quoting Job's whining and calling it truth because it's in the bible.

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So "again" is a possible translation choice?