Are Protestants dead?

Righttruth said:

Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, rather He fulfilled it spiritually. Now it is not just the letter of Law but the spirit behind it that need to be adhered to. For example, the Ten Commandments still hold good and valid in a Christian life.

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Nope, your theology is all messed up on this.

You have 2 very distinct and rather serious problems. #1 the 10 commandments are PART of the Torah. YOU and I DO NOT get to pick and choose what part of the Torah we observe.

#2 is your improper use of a poorly translated Fulfilled. The greek in the passage in Matthew you are referring to is the word Pleroo and it does NOT mean abolish, complete or to do away with.
Matt 5:17 17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Now if that is all one reads then your view seems correct but again there are serious problems namely the REST of what Messiah says
18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Well, for certain we know that heaven and earth have NOT passed away And ALL (meaning EVERYTHING) has not been accomplished.

Worse yet is Yeshua says those that attempt to do away with the Torah and teach others to do likewise will be called LEAST in the kingdom of heaven!

But back to the word Fulfill. Its the Greek root Pleroo and here is what Strongs has to say about the word translated fulfill and it SPECIFICALLY CITES THIS VERSE

Universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17

An old bible teacher gave me this nugget a very long time ago... he said whenever something seems unclear you can replace a word with a clearer meaning and if the sentence comes out nonsensical or is an apparent conflict then your understanding of the translated word is wrong.

With YOUR use of pleroo/fufilled (by which you mean done away with as a result of being completed) you have a serious problem because such a meaning has him speaking nonsensical conflicting words.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to do away with them as a result of completing them in perfection. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Your definition has him contradicting himself in verse 17 whereas the CORRECT understanding of Pleroo expands beautifully on what Yeshua was saying:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to cause God's will as made known in the law to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises given through the prophets to receive fulfillment. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Here you see a CLEAR understanding of what Messiah is telling us... that because the Jewish leadership had CORRUPTED what G-d was saying by adding rules around Torah which became MORE important that the word of G-d Yeshua cant to BE the model of HOW we were to walk in obedience and walk in the light of Torah, giving us the example of what G-d was saying to us about HOW to do these things.

BukiRob said:

Nope, your theology is all messed up on this.

You have 2 very distinct and rather serious problems. #1 the 10 commandments are PART of the Torah. YOU and I DO NOT get to pick and choose what part of the Torah we observe.

#2 is your improper use of a poorly translated Fulfilled. The greek in the passage in Matthew you are referring to is the word Pleroo and it does NOT mean abolish, complete or to do away with.
Matt 5:17 17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Now if that is all one reads then your view seems correct but again there are serious problems namely the REST of what Messiah says
18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Well, for certain we know that heaven and earth have NOT passed away And ALL (meaning EVERYTHING) has not been accomplished.

Worse yet is Yeshua says those that attempt to do away with the Torah and teach others to do likewise will be called LEAST in the kingdom of heaven!

But back to the word Fulfill. Its the Greek root Pleroo and here is what Strongs has to say about the word translated fulfill and it SPECIFICALLY CITES THIS VERSE

Universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17

An old bible teacher gave me this nugget a very long time ago... he said whenever something seems unclear you can replace a word with a clearer meaning and if the sentence comes out nonsensical or is an apparent conflict then your understanding of the translated word is wrong.

With YOUR use of pleroo/fufilled (by which you mean done away with as a result of being completed) you have a serious problem because such a meaning has him speaking nonsensical conflicting words.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to do away with them as a result of completing them in perfection. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Your definition has him contradicting himself in verse 17 whereas the CORRECT understanding of Pleroo expands beautifully on what Yeshua was saying:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to cause God's will as made known in the law to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises given through the prophets to receive fulfillment. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Here you see a CLEAR understanding of what Messiah is telling us... that because the Jewish leadership had CORRUPTED what G-d was saying by adding rules around Torah which became MORE important that the word of G-d Yeshua cant to BE the model of HOW we were to walk in obedience and walk in the light of Torah, giving us the example of what G-d was saying to us about HOW to do these things.

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I only gave an example. To make it clear, let me elaborate by indicating that the Law forbids murder. One can easily somehow avoid it in his lifetime. But what about thinking? So also in case desiring another woman. One can avoid adultery. What about the mere thought of it? So a Spirit filled person will not even think of them. That is how the Law has to be fulfilled spiritually which is more difficult than adhering to it in letter.
Furthermore, Jesus indicated that Moses gave concession with regard to divorce because of the hardness on the part of the people. But spiritually speaking divorce is against God's will. Rituals are of no value when our heart is unrepentant.
So Christianity is not a cake walk! It has been made easy and comfortable by hypocrites who rely extensively Paul's speculations and self-claims.

Righttruth said:

I only gave an example. To make it clear, let me elaborate by indicating that the Law forbids murder. One can easily somehow avoid it in his lifetime. But what about thinking? So also in case desiring another woman. One can avoid adultery. What about the mere thought of it? So a Spirit filled person will not even think of them. That is how the Law has to be fulfilled spiritually which is more difficult than adhering to it in letter.
Furthermore, Jesus indicated that Moses gave concession with regard to divorce because of the hardness on the part of the people. But spiritually speaking divorce is against God's will. Rituals are of no value when our heart is unrepentant.
So Christianity is not a cake walk! It has been made easy and comfortable by hypocrites who rely extensively Paul's speculations and self-claims.

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The Torah has not been spiritually fulfilled. The New Covenant is prophecied in by Jeremiah and Isaiah as being written on your heart and in your mind... you as the believer STILL have to WALK IN THEM.

I do not believe any man who says he never looks at a beautiful woman and doesn't have those thoughts run through his mind. You are starting down a path that says once you are saved and filled with the spirit that you no longer sin.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

6If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You do not practice something unless it requires a daily effort/discipline. If you practice an instrument (as an example) you will fail, make mistakes, errors and some days your practice is BAD. Some days, it is nearly flawless. PRACTICE implies failure (not obtaining perfection.)

What is walking in the light? The Tanakh (O.T.) tells us that the TORAH is light which is where we find Yeshua as HE IS THE LIGHT and it is Messiahs cleansing us of our sin. This ONLY happens when we confess our sin and recognize that we are unfaithful but he is faithful, we are sinners (even as we are saved) and he is sinless. We are unrighteous, he is righteous.

The Spirit; Ruach HaKoshed (Holy spirit) Will lead you to all truth correct? What is truth? Scripture again answers this for us... Torah is the truth.

Ps 119:142 Youngs literal translation puts it this way.
Thy righteousness is righteousness to the age, And Thy law is truth.

So indeed IF you are following the leading of the Spirit he will lead you to Torah.

BukiRob said:

The Torah has not been spiritually fulfilled. The New Covenant is prophecied in by Jeremiah and Isaiah as being written on your heart and in your mind... you as the believer STILL have to WALK IN THEM.

I do not believe any man who says he never looks at a beautiful woman and doesn't have those thoughts run through his mind. You are starting down a path that says once you are saved and filled with the spirit that you no longer sin.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

6If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You do not practice something unless it requires a daily effort/discipline. If you practice an instrument (as an example) you will fail, make mistakes, errors and some days your practice is BAD. Some days, it is nearly flawless. PRACTICE implies failure (not obtaining perfection.)

What is walking in the light? The Tanakh (O.T.) tells us that the TORAH is light which is where we find Yeshua as HE IS THE LIGHT and it is Messiahs cleansing us of our sin. This ONLY happens when we confess our sin and recognize that we are unfaithful but he is faithful, we are sinners (even as we are saved) and he is sinless. We are unrighteous, he is righteous.

The Spirit; Ruach HaKoshed (Holy spirit) Will lead you to all truth correct? What is truth? Scripture again answers this for us... Torah is the truth.

Ps 119:142 Youngs literal translation puts it this way.
Thy righteousness is righteousness to the age, And Thy law is truth.

So indeed IF you are following the leading of the Spirit he will lead you to Torah.

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We do have new covenant with Jesus, and His supreme sacrifice put an end to all kinds of animal sacrifices. How can you say you need to observe Torah when there is no temple?

I don't believe in being saved before hand. Salvation for those who endure to the end. We continue to sin. For those who strive towards perfection will no longer entertain thoughts of sensual desires.

Righttruth said:

We do have new covenant with Jesus, and His supreme sacrifice put an end to all kinds of animal sacrifices. How can you say you need to observe Torah when there is no temple?

I don't believe in being saved before hand. Salvation for those who endure to the end. We continue to sin. For those who strive towards perfection will no longer entertain thoughts of sensual desires.

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Yeshua did away with the SIN sacrifice. Well, unless you are prepared to explain how it is that you know more about that say.... the Apostle James the Leader of the body.

Sorry but I will side with what scripture makes crystal clear

Acts 21

18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 “What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 “Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 “But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Notice that James indicates that THOUSANDS of Jews who are "ZEALOUS FOR the TORAH"Nowhere in scripture will you find James condemning in ANY WAY this as an error.

You see Paul was OBEDIENT to the request of James and the Elders and they ALL (men who were set aside with Paul to take the vow.) took the vow and conducted the proper SACRIFICES for the Vow (Vow of the Nazarene.)

So, NO the Sacrificial system was NOT done away with... the SIN sacrifices were done away with because Yeshua is the final, eternal sin covering.

In fact, Paul himself in the epistle illudes to this very fact in Corinthians as does Timothy.

At the heart of this is the undeniable fact that ALL of the Apostles OBSERVED sabbath, the feast days as well as the Torah.

These very same Apostles did not impose the physical externals of the law on the gentiles ( like circumcision). See Acts of the Apostles 15:1-29.

The Lord said keep the commandments ( Matthew 19:16-19 ).

The Apostle Paul reiterated this ( Romans 13:8-10 ).

The Apostle John clarified this ( 1 John 2:1-11 ),

This is the command of the Lord ( John 15:1-10 ).

Lukaris said:

These very same Apostles did not impose the physical externals of the law on the gentiles ( like circumcision). See Acts of the Apostles 15:1-29.

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LOL

Glad you brought up Acts 15. 99% of people do not even understand what is going on in Acts 15.

You are taking 1 statement made by James completely out of context while also completely ignoring the REST of what James says.

Question what is Acts 15 about? Most of you will incorrectly assert that its "what to do about the Gentiles."

I have an idea, let us see what scripture tells us Acts 15 is about. If you want to stand on the truth you MUST be willing to set aside the teaching of doctrine.

1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Acts 15 is ENTIRELY about WHO CAN BE SAVED.

The men from Judea are saying ONLY JEWS and JEWS ALONE can be saved. Why? Because in order for a Gentile to become a Jew he must #1 be circumcised and #2 Keep the Torah.

G-d had only ever made a covenant with 1 people in all the earth... the children of Israel
So it was natural for the Jews in Judea to assume that only the Jew can be saved.

This is true additional as witnessed by the testimony given by Peter, Paul and Barnabas ALL of which is EXCLUSIVELY about how G-d, in fact, WAS moving among the Gentiles.

Finally, you are way off base on your interpretation of 19-22

20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

So, what is significant about the 4 things they are to abstain from? I mean after all, why didnt James include the 10 commandments? Not bearing false witness, not to commit murder, to covet your neighbor etc? Why those 4 things?

Because all 4 of those things were part of the common pagan temple practices of the Gentiles in Asia Minor where they were preaching to the Gentiles. Temple prostitution, meat was routinely sold after it was offered, the normal means of killing the animal was strangulation so the meat was tainted by blood kept in the animal's body after it was dead. Drinking blood was a common practice as well.

All of these admonitions are ALL directly linked with... IDOLATRY which was the only sin for which both Judah and Israel were cast out of the land. It was then and is today considered the greast of sins by the Jews.

How do we know this other than logical reasoning? Because in Verse 21 James says that there are Jewish synagogues where MOSES (TORAH ) is read every sabbath.

James is saying Stop all activity associated with Idolatry, go to synagogue on Sabbath and you, over time, will learn the rest... You know, like what the church does TODAY with a person who comes to Messiah and doesn't know anything about the bible and how they are supposed to live and what it is they are supposed to be doing. We dont unload everything on them at once. We deal with the more serious sin now, knowing that over time they will learn the rest of what they are to be doing and what things they should stop doing.

Lukaris said:

These very same Apostles did not impose the physical externals of the law on the gentiles ( like circumcision). See Acts of the Apostles 15:1-29.

The Lord said keep the commandments ( Matthew 19:16-19 ).

The Apostle Paul reiterated this ( Romans 13:8-10 ).

The Apostle John clarified this ( 1 John 2:1-11 ),

This is the command of the Lord ( John 15:1-10 ).

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It never ceases to amaze me how people can consistently take things completely out of context to justify "doing right in their own eyes."

*sigh* The 10 commandments are PART OF THE TORAH you can not divorce them from the rest.

If you actually understood the Torah you would understand what the Messiah was saying.... Torah is about HOW you keep the 10 it's NOT, NOT, NOT a separate category.

Explain to me please what scriptural verse you can cite for a justification of IGNORING the Feast days of G-d? Oh, I hope you do know that they are not the feast days of the jews but they are G-d's appointed times. Meaning if you are called a son/child of G-d why are you ignoring those appointed times?

John 15 IS the very heart of the Torah The Torah is entirely about #1 HOW to love the Lord your G-d and #2 HOW to love your neighbor as yourself.

You see, in G-ds mercy and understanding how truly screwed up we are, he goes into great detail on HOW we are to do those 2 things so that we are not left to just do what we think is right... for when we do that, we are engaging in EVIL. It is when we are OBEDIENT and we do what G-d says to do that we are being upright.

Really quite simple you can do your own thing, or what your priest or pastor says OR you can do what G-d says to do... The choice is yours.

It is only in the Gospels that the Lord fully proclaimed the universality of love and God ( Deuteronomy 6:1-9 ) & love of neighbor ( Leviticus 19:18 ) in ( Matthew 22:36-40 etc.) & to treat others by this ( Matthew 7:1-12 “the golden rule” which is not formally articulated in the Torah. The 10 commandments remain for us to live by but the core ones are what I have posted re Romans 13:8-10 etc.

In posts 868 & 868, it is said that we are to live by the Torah but this would include circumcision which is contrary to Acts of the Apostles 15:5-10 and contrary to what St. Paul preaches in Romans 4:9-25.

The Lord summed up the law & prophets for us in ( Matthew 22:36-40, Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 7:12 ). No doubt the spiritual aspect of the Torah is enclosed within this but not fleshly ordinances ( Romans 7:14 ).

The moral code of the Torah remains also ( Leviticus 18, Leviticus 19, Leviticus 20 etc )as St. Paul outlines in Romans 1:18-32. If you read this without the Sermon on the Mount ( Matthew 5, Matthew 6, Matthew 7 ) you might think you have the right to impose the death penalty on a sinner but ( aside from the secular aspect of capital crime for murder) this has had no valid application for 2000 years.

In posts 867-868 it is said that I do not know what I am talking about. I have followed the scriptural understanding from the old to new covenant. I have also followed how the Apostolic Church established the pattern of applying the commandments to the formation of catechism, prayer books etc as attested to in the earliest known ( ca. 100 AD ) church manual: The Didache (see:
Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson). )

I would like to also mention that there are no direct references to Leviticus 19 & Deuteronomy 6:1-9 ) in the writings of the 1st c. Pharisee: Josephus. I have the 17th c. translation ( modern printing of course) of William Whiston. Josephus paraphrased almost the entire Torah why are these most foundational aspects to the Gospel not there?

BukiRob said:

Yeshua did away with the SIN sacrifice. Well, unless you are prepared to explain how it is that you know more about that say.... the Apostle James the Leader of the body.

Sorry but I will side with what scripture makes crystal clear

Acts 21

18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 “What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 “Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 “But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

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You are erring on understanding because you are not considering the context of the event and the teaching of Paul: that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

The context was Paul's life was under threat by Jews of Jerusalem. It was a transition period from the OT covenant to the NT. The strategy was to show to the unbelieving Jews that Paul has not totally discarded the entire OT rituals as such.

Notice that James indicates that THOUSANDS of Jews who are "ZEALOUS FOR the TORAH"Nowhere in scripture will you find James condemning in ANY WAY this as an error.

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There is no question of condemning anything, that too Judaism, the foundation of the NT.

You see Paul was OBEDIENT to the request of James and the Elders and they ALL (men who were set aside with Paul to take the vow.) took the vow and conducted the proper SACRIFICES for the Vow (Vow of the Nazarene.)

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Paul accepted the strategy of the elders to guard his life, not that he wholeheartedly approved!

So, NO the Sacrificial system was NOT done away with... the SIN sacrifices were done away with because Yeshua is the final, eternal sin covering.

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The OT is the foundation and NT is superstructure. We don't dig at the foundation anymore.

In fact, Paul himself in the epistle illudes to this very fact in Corinthians as does Timothy.

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I don't think so. In fact, you may want to read Galatians.

At the heart of this is the undeniable fact that ALL of the Apostles OBSERVED sabbath, the feast days as well as the Torah.

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For Christians, Sabbath was shifted to Sunday, the resurrection day of the Lord. In fact, God never said to observe Sabbath on Saturday. It is a day after six days of work.

Righttruth said:

You are erring on understanding because you are not considering the context of the event and the teaching of Paul: that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

The context was Paul's life was under threat by Jews of Jerusalem. It was a transition period from the OT covenant to the NT. The strategy was to show to the unbelieving Jews that Paul has not totally discarded the entire OT rituals as such.



There is no question of condemning anything, that too Judaism, the foundation of the NT.



Paul accepted the strategy of the elders to guard his life, not that he wholeheartedly approved!



The OT is the foundation and NT is superstructure. We don't dig at the foundation anymore.



I don't think so. In fact, you may want to read Galatians.



For Christians, Sabbath was shifted to Sunday, the resurrection day of the Lord. In fact, God never said to observe Sabbath on Saturday. It is a day after six days of work.

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Show me in scripture where Paul, Peter, James or ANY of the Apostles directed the cessation of Sabbath.

Sabbath is the 7th day and has been since CREATION Sunday is not, never was, never will be Sabbath.

You fall into the same trap as those in Jerusalem in Acts 21 accusing Paul of teaching the abandonment of Torah. They were wrong as James and the Elders made clear and so are you.

BukiRob said:

Show me in scripture where Paul, Peter, James or ANY of the Apostles directed the cessation of Sabbath.

Sabbath is the 7th day and has been since CREATION Sunday is not, never was, never will be Sabbath.

You fall into the same trap as those in Jerusalem in Acts 21 accusing Paul of teaching the abandonment of Torah. They were wrong as James and the Elders made clear and so are you.

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None of them advised cessation of Sabbath. But show me where God said to keep Saturday as Sabbath.

St Mary Magdalene worshiped on the Day of Resurrection:

Matthew 28:9

Matthew 28:1-10

Righttruth said:

None of them advised cessation of Sabbath. But show me where God said to keep Saturday as Sabbath.

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Gen:1-3
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

Sabbath has ALWAYS been the 7th day. If you knew anything about Hebrew you would know that the days of the week are all named in reference as to how many days until Sabbath. Sabbath has since from creation, been what you and I call Saturday.

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Now I suppose you will try and tell us that G-d never identified what day Sabbath was/is when he led the children out of Egypt? Or are you going to try and tell us that YOU get to pick which day is Sabbath?
Isaiah 58:13-14
“If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath,
from doing your business on my holy day,
and call the Sabbath a delight
and the holy day of the Lord honorable;
if you honor it, not going your own ways,
or seeking your own pursuing your own business or talking idly;[c]
14 then you shall take delight in the Lord,
and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;[d]
I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures (Clearly this is the Hebrew 6th day or Saturday)

Matthew 12:10-12

10 And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him. 11 He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

Clearly, Jesus himself recognizes Saturday as Sabbath as he identifies it as such!

Luke 4:16

Jesus Rejected at Nazareth
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.


The evidence that Sabbath is the 7th day or what we call Saturday is unmistakably clear and has been since creation. G-d clearly establishes the moadim (appointed times; feast days of G-d) and the Sabbath when he led the Children of Israel out of the land of Egypt. Exodus 16:26
Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is a Sabbath, there will be none.”
This passage is speaking of the Manna that would fall from heaven to feed the people in the wilderness. So we have concrete evidence of WHEN Sabbath is.

To believe that G-d identifies when it is but the Hebrews somehow forgot it or changed it is sheer lunacy.

Sabbath is SATURDAY. PERIOD and NO serious bible scholarwould argue that fact at all.

Lukaris said:

St Mary Magdalene worshiped on the Day of Resurrection:

Matthew 28:9

Matthew 28:1-10

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So what?

The Apostles worshiped at Temple DAILY

Acts 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts,

Worshiping on a particular day or time or even daily has NOTHING what so ever to do with changing when Sabbath.

Or are you trying to tell us that Mary is more important than G-d himself who has decreed when days, times and seasons are?

BukiRob said:

Gen:1-3
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

Sabbath has ALWAYS been the 7th day. If you knew anything about Hebrew you would know that the days of the week are all named in reference as to how many days until Sabbath. Sabbath has since from creation, been what you and I call Saturday.

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Now I suppose you will try and tell us that G-d never identified what day Sabbath was/is when he led the children out of Egypt? Or are you going to try and tell us that YOU get to pick which day is Sabbath?
Isaiah 58:13-14
“If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath,
from doing your business on my holy day,
and call the Sabbath a delight
and the holy day of the Lord honorable;
if you honor it, not going your own ways,
or seeking your own pursuing your own business or talking idly;[c]
14 then you shall take delight in the Lord,
and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;[d]
I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures (Clearly this is the Hebrew 6th day or Saturday)

Matthew 12:10-12

10 And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him. 11 He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

Clearly, Jesus himself recognizes Saturday as Sabbath as he identifies it as such!

Luke 4:16

Jesus Rejected at Nazareth
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.


The evidence that Sabbath is the 7th day or what we call Saturday is unmistakably clear and has been since creation. G-d clearly establishes the moadim (appointed times; feast days of G-d) and the Sabbath when he led the Children of Israel out of the land of Egypt. Exodus 16:26
Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is a Sabbath, there will be none.”
This passage is speaking of the Manna that would fall from heaven to feed the people in the wilderness. So we have concrete evidence of WHEN Sabbath is.

To believe that G-d identifies when it is but the Hebrews somehow forgot it or changed it is sheer lunacy.

Sabbath is SATURDAY. PERIOD and NO serious bible scholarwould argue that fact at all.

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All the above will not prove that God indicated Saturday as Sabbath day. It is very clear that Sabbath day is immediately following six days of toil.

Righttruth said:

All the above will not prove that God indicated Saturday as Sabbath day. It is very clear that Sabbath day is immediately following six days of toil.

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100% WRONG.

As I said, no serious student of the Bible would ever hold such a clearly wrong view. The burden of proof that Saturday is not Sabbath lies with you, not me.

Are you so pigheaded that you refuse to accept FACTS?

Fact: Hebrew days are named for the number of days in reference to sabbath.

Yom Rishon (Sunday) is First day
Yom Sheni is Second day
Yom Shlishi is Third day
Yom Revi'i is fourth day
Yom Chamishi is fifth day
Yom Shishi is sixth day
Shabbat is seventh day what we call Saturday.

I just showed you that in Exodus that Sabbath no manna was given on Sabbath. The Hebrew names of the days of the week are all in reference, pointing to Sabbath. To suggest that we dont know what day sabbath is, is just pure stupidity

BukiRob said:

So what?

The Apostles worshiped at Temple DAILY

Acts 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts,

Worshiping on a particular day or time or even daily has NOTHING what so ever to do with changing when Sabbath.

Or are you trying to tell us that Mary is more important than G-d himself who has decreed when days, times and seasons are?

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Do not recklessly inject something that is nonexistent in my post. St. Mary Magdelene made the first gesture of worship to the Lord on His Resurrection Day. The disciples gathered to worship on Sunday as indicated in Acts of the Apostles 20:7-12.

In the Orthodox Church, the Sabbath is still kept in Saturday vespers and we worship God on the day of Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 ).

...

BukiRob said:

100% WRONG.

As I said, no serious student of the Bible would ever hold such a clearly wrong view. The burden of proof that Saturday is not Sabbath lies with you, not me.

Are you so pigheaded that you refuse to accept FACTS?

Fact: Hebrew days are named for the number of days in reference to sabbath.

Yom Rishon (Sunday) is First day
Yom Sheni is Second day
Yom Shlishi is Third day
Yom Revi'i is fourth day
Yom Chamishi is fifth day
Yom Shishi is sixth day
Shabbat is seventh day what we call Saturday.

I just showed you that in Exodus that Sabbath no manna was given on Sabbath. The Hebrew names of the days of the week are all in reference, pointing to Sabbath. To suggest that we dont know what day sabbath is, is just pure stupidity

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I can very well understand your poor defense (use of offensive words prove that beyond doubt!) because you are holding on to the letter of the Law and traditions of men, instead of understanding the spirit of the Law and the directive of God! No wonder Torah got reduced to Talmud!