Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

fhansen · Apr 27, 2018

EternallyKeptByJesus said:
I am amazed at how anyone can think salvation is insecure. God made it so clear its all about what Jesus did for us and not our works. The gospels make this so clear as well as Romans where God contrast the difference between those who are trying to earn their way into heaven by doing works or good deeds or some form of obedience as apposed to faith in the God who justifies the ungodly.

Furthermore there are so many examples that make it clear that salvation is secure. We are predestined not to be saved but to become like Jesus. Salvation is eternal, which if you lost it, then God lied. Then there is the fact that we are already buried and raised with Christ. We are already a new creation now, not later if we continue doing good. The fact that God speaks of circumcision of the heart. Circumcision can not be undone, so neither can salvation.

One a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child. Even now the concept is not possible. Even if you don't like your parents you can never change the fact that you will always be the child of your parents.

So, there for the secure salvationist their god is more than willing to take their child that they claim to love to no end and throw them into a horrible burning fire that will never end. I don't know any normal or healthy parent that would ever throw their child into a fire for punishment. So if that is god, then his creation is better the god himself, and that god needs to learn what basic love is.

If Jesus died on the cross and suffered so he can guilt us and make us feel bad, then you can keep it. I have enough without that level of guilt.

But praise God, the true God freely forgives, justifies the ungodly, saves murders, rapist, incest people, adulters, drunkards, those who lived their whole life living for self and more. These categories are people in the Bible. The true God, loves us freely and at a level we could never fully imagine this side of eternity.

No matter what we do, we are always forgiven, loved and accepted. The insecure condemning god makes me want to live in sin and be as far away from him as possible. The unconditional loving God, makes me want to run to Him and when I sin, to run to Him all the more.

Love is a far better motivation to live right than threats of beatings and the worst torment ever, that being hell. People that love to preach insecure salvation do so because they are full of so much extreme pride because they think themselves perfect or close to it. Those who know salvation is secure realize that their is nothing in them that could ever save them or keep their salvation so they run to love and the God who freely justifies them.

Be Blessed.

Then there are all the verses that admonish believers to strive, perservere, be vigilant, refrain from sin, remain faithful, remain in Christ, be good soil, invest ones talents, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, be perfect, be holy, etc, etc, generally with loss of place in the kingdom at stake.

God wisely balances one attitude towards our salvation against the other. There's always the carrot and the stick, over-confidence against humility, absolute assurance versus a healthy recognition of our need to be doing things according to His will.

GodsGrace101 · Apr 27, 2018

Christman811 said:
Your opponents will argue that the logical conclusion is that only a true believer and disciple of Christ will always have faith and believe in the Son of God. They say that it is impossible for a true Christian to lose their faith, to fall away, and not to persevere until the end. Primarily, those of the reformed position maintain this, since they basically say that God's will prevails in matters of salvation. Thus, if God wills someone to be saved, they will be saved regardless of their own will. God will override their will with His irresistible grace. This is a caricature, I'm sure, but that is the basics of how I view their ludicrous doctrines.

Yes, well, when you get one doctrine wrong, all the rest must also be changed.

GodsGrace101 · Apr 27, 2018

fhansen said:
Then there are all the verses that admonish believers to strive, perservere, be vigilant, refrain from sin, remain faithful, remain in Christ, be good soil, invest ones talents, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, be perfect, be holy, etc, etc, generally with loss of place in the kingdom at stake.

God wisely balances one attitude towards our salvation against the other. There's always the carrot and the stick, over-confidence against humility, absolute assurance versus a healthy recognition of our need to be doing things according to His will.

Jesus liked humility.
Mathew 5:3,5,8

I agree that over-confidence can be dangerous.

nonaeroterraqueous · Apr 27, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Every person I have ever talked to about eternal security not one of them has ever said because they have eternal security, "Great I can now go live in sin because I am saved".

You've never met my family. Their attitude is that regardless of what the Bible says, a thing is not a sin if the "Holy Spirit" leads them to do it, and if they're wrong...oh, well, God's grace will cover it.

Phil 1:21 · Apr 27, 2018

EternallyKeptByJesus said:
I am amazed at how anyone can think salvation is insecure. God made it so clear its all about what Jesus did for us and not our works. The gospels make this so clear as well as Romans where God contrast the difference between those who are trying to earn their way into heaven by doing works or good deeds or some form of obedience as apposed to faith in the God who justifies the ungodly.

Furthermore there are so many examples that make it clear that salvation is secure. We are predestined not to be saved but to become like Jesus. Salvation is eternal, which if you lost it, then God lied. Then there is the fact that we are already buried and raised with Christ. We are already a new creation now, not later if we continue doing good. The fact that God speaks of circumcision of the heart. Circumcision can not be undone, so neither can salvation.

One a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child. Even now the concept is not possible. Even if you don't like your parents you can never change the fact that you will always be the child of your parents.

So, there for the secure salvationist their god is more than willing to take their child that they claim to love to no end and throw them into a horrible burning fire that will never end. I don't know any normal or healthy parent that would ever throw their child into a fire for punishment. So if that is god, then his creation is better the god himself, and that god needs to learn what basic love is.

If Jesus died on the cross and suffered so he can guilt us and make us feel bad, then you can keep it. I have enough without that level of guilt.

But praise God, the true God freely forgives, justifies the ungodly, saves murders, rapist, incest people, adulters, drunkards, those who lived their whole life living for self and more. These categories are people in the Bible. The true God, loves us freely and at a level we could never fully imagine this side of eternity.

No matter what we do, we are always forgiven, loved and accepted. The insecure condemning god makes me want to live in sin and be as far away from him as possible. The unconditional loving God, makes me want to run to Him and when I sin, to run to Him all the more.

Love is a far better motivation to live right than threats of beatings and the worst torment ever, that being hell. People that love to preach insecure salvation do so because they are full of so much extreme pride because they think themselves perfect or close to it. Those who know salvation is secure realize that their is nothing in them that could ever save them or keep their salvation so they run to love and the God who freely justifies them.

Be Blessed.

If we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:9) and our that our salvation is secure (John 6:39) then suddenly certain churches lose the ability to scare and control their congregations with a litany of legalism. That's probably why some of them fight so hard to disregard the clear word of God in this matter.

Acts2:38 · Apr 27, 2018

Excellent scriptures and explanations used by those who are refuting OSAS's false doctrine of men.

I'm a little surprised that this scripture didn't come up after 4 whole pages...

1 Timothy 4:1 and following

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Let's explain "departing from the faith":

Examples:
1- You cannot leave a building, unless you were in the building already to begin with.

2- You cannot leave the military, unless you had first taken the oath and have been sworn in to join the military first.

3- You cannot wash your clothes in water, unless you had first put them in the water to be washed.

Therefore, you cannot depart the faith, unless you had first been in the faith.

In conclusion, people who were once Christians can and have, fallen away and lost salvation.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

"3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

What is "turn from truth"?

Is that possibly someone who "departed from the faith"(1 Tim 4:1)?

So if that someone who is "not enduring sound doctrine" and "turns their ears from the truth" was not a Christian, what sense does this scripture have? Please explain.

Examples:

1- If I join the military, and I do NOT OBEY their rules and regs, I am "not enduring" their "doctrines" and I am "turning" away from that military organization.

Flip that in terms of Christians.

If I am baptized in Christ and I am now a child of God, and I do NOT OBEY the gospel, then I would be "not enduring sound doctrine" and I would be "turning my ears" from its truth.

2- If you are hired at your new job, you are now an employee of that job. This means you ARE indeed part of that company. If you were to "not endure" their rules and regs that companies have, you would be, in fact, turning away.

Flip this in terms of Christians.

If you just joined the family of Christians, into the body (Rom 12;1 Cor 12) and you are now a Christian, it means you are INDEED part of the body. You are a member. If you were to "not endure" sound doctrine from the gospel, it means then that you grabbed doctrine of men and you are turning away your ears from truth.

To summarize:

You cannot leave something, unless you were IN that something

Christian terms. You cannot depart from faith (Christians/believers) unless you were already IN that faith.

EternallyKeptByJesus · Apr 27, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
It's OK to use what we understand to try and understand God, for instance saying that we are always our parent's children. There is, however a limit to this --- God is God Almighty, not a human father.
We can be a child of God for as long as we wish to be? Can I not change my mind? Maybe something could happen to me to make me become an unbeliever again?

You posted:

John 1:12
To THOSE WHO BELIEVE He gave the right to be called children of God.
What if I stop believing?

Galatians 3:26
We are all sons of God THROUGH FAITH in Jesus.
What if I stop having faith in Jesus?

The Greek word for believe in the is the same for faith.

2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

So because it is Jesus who saves us an not ourselves, once you are saved, even if you doubt or stop believing you will remain saved. Because we are saved by the faith of Jesus. Our faith gets us through the door, figuratively speaking.

Rom 14:23 ... everything which is not of faith is sin.

If everything that is not of faith is sin, which would include doubt and unbelief, then which sin did Jesus not pay for. None, for Jesus paid for all sins.

Be Blessed

EternallyKeptByJesus · Apr 27, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
I always listen to what persons are saying.
1 John 3:23 reminds me of the two Great Commandments of Jesus:
Love God with all your heart, and soul, and mind.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Mathew 22:37-39

If we follow these two commandments of Jesus, we are, in effect, following all of the 10 commandments. And yet you say that we're not required to follow the 10 commandments.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, to make it complete, to fulfill the prophecy, just as He fulfilled many other prophecies.

Has the loan been paid off?

2 Corinthians 1:22 states that God sealed us in the Holy Spirit as a pledge, or a down payment, of what can be accomplished in Christ, or, our salvation. This is repeated in Ephesians 1:14. This "earnest" or down payment was given by God through the Holy Spirit as an assurance of an INTENT to pay. The final reward will be paid in full when we enter heaven.

Agreed. The law had no power to make us obey.

Agreed again.
But re your last sentence...isn't this what you said above when you said we don't have to obey the commandments?

OK. I see what you mean about Abraham and Lot.

Mathew 22:37-39 is before the cross. Therefore Jesus had to teach and speak as one under the law. Jesus was asked a question in regards to the law and He answered in kind.

The sin debt has been paid in full. The Holy Spirit is more like a proof that the salvation that Jesus began will be completed in heaven. Meaning, do we live now perfect live, are we not free from suffering and all the consequences that sin has brought, do we know experience God like walking with Him in the garden as Adam before the fall, etc.

Even though we are eternally saved, we still have issues to deal wtih in life and we don't have the full reward of choosing Jesus. God also said that the beauty of heaven is so amazing that there are no languages in the earth that could describe it.

The Holy Spirit is not a down payment on our salvation but a pledge, sort of like earnest money in a home purchase, He is a guarantee of what will happen. Like earnest money, if God does not eternally save, then God has broken His promise and the Holy Spirit would have to suffer for the broken contract.

Be Blessed

112358 · Apr 27, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
Excellent scriptures and explanations used by those who are refuting OSAS's false doctrine of men.

I'm a little surprised that this scripture didn't come up after 4 whole pages...

1 Timothy 4:1 and following

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Let's explain "departing from the faith":

Examples:
1- You cannot leave a building, unless you were in the building already to begin with.

2- You cannot leave the military, unless you had first taken the oath and have been sworn in to join the military first.

3- You cannot wash your clothes in water, unless you had first put them in the water to be washed.

Therefore, you cannot depart the faith, unless you had first been in the faith.

In conclusion, people who were once Christians can and have, fallen away and lost salvation.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

"3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

What is "turn from truth"?

Is that possibly someone who "departed from the faith"(1 Tim 4:1)?

So if that someone who is "not enduring sound doctrine" and "turns their ears from the truth" was not a Christian, what sense does this scripture have? Please explain.

Examples:

1- If I join the military, and I do NOT OBEY their rules and regs, I am "not enduring" their "doctrines" and I am "turning" away from that military organization.

Flip that in terms of Christians.

If I am baptized in Christ and I am now a child of God, and I do NOT OBEY the gospel, then I would be "not enduring sound doctrine" and I would be "turning my ears" from its truth.

2- If you are hired at your new job, you are now an employee of that job. This means you ARE indeed part of that company. If you were to "not endure" their rules and regs that companies have, you would be, in fact, turning away.

Flip this in terms of Christians.

If you just joined the family of Christians, into the body (Rom 12;1 Cor 12) and you are now a Christian, it means you are INDEED part of the body. You are a member. If you were to "not endure" sound doctrine from the gospel, it means then that you grabbed doctrine of men and you are turning away your ears from truth.

To summarize:

You cannot leave something, unless you were IN that something

Christian terms. You cannot depart from faith (Christians/believers) unless you were already IN that faith.

Truth! The only way one can accept OSAS is to toss Hebrews 10:26-32 (among others) out the window.

EternallyKeptByJesus · Apr 27, 2018

112358 said:
Truth! The only way one can accept OSAS is to toss Hebrews 10:26-32 (among others) out the window.

That is false. I don't toss any scriptures out, I like other OSAS understand the truth of what so many scriptures in context actually says. For example this one in context is not talking to believers but to Jews who was contemplating Jesus as messiah. The will full sin is rejecting Jesus, that is why there remains no more sacrifice for sins or do you suggest that there one can still sacrifice animals to have sins covered.

Be Blessed.

112358 · Apr 27, 2018

duplicate

EternallyKeptByJesus · Apr 27, 2018

EternallyKeptByJesus said:
I am amazed at how anyone can think salvation is insecure. God made it so clear its all about what Jesus did for us and not our works. The gospels make this so clear as well as Romans where God contrast the difference between those who are trying to earn their way into heaven by doing works or good deeds or some form of obedience as apposed to faith in the God who justifies the ungodly.

Furthermore there are so many examples that make it clear that salvation is secure. We are predestined not to be saved but to become like Jesus. Salvation is eternal, which if you lost it, then God lied. Then there is the fact that we are already buried and raised with Christ. We are already a new creation now, not later if we continue doing good. The fact that God speaks of circumcision of the heart. Circumcision can not be undone, so neither can salvation.

One a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child. Even now the concept is not possible. Even if you don't like your parents you can never change the fact that you will always be the child of your parents.

So, there for the secure salvationist their god is more than willing to take their child that they claim to love to no end and throw them into a horrible burning fire that will never end. I don't know any normal or healthy parent that would ever throw their child into a fire for punishment. So if that is god, then his creation is better the god himself, and that god needs to learn what basic love is.

If Jesus died on the cross and suffered so he can guilt us and make us feel bad, then you can keep it. I have enough without that level of guilt.

But praise God, the true God freely forgives, justifies the ungodly, saves murders, rapist, incest people, adulters, drunkards, those who lived their whole life living for self and more. These categories are people in the Bible. The true God, loves us freely and at a level we could never fully imagine this side of eternity.

No matter what we do, we are always forgiven, loved and accepted. The insecure condemning god makes me want to live in sin and be as far away from him as possible. The unconditional loving God, makes me want to run to Him and when I sin, to run to Him all the more.

Love is a far better motivation to live right than threats of beatings and the worst torment ever, that being hell. People that love to preach insecure salvation do so because they are full of so much extreme pride because they think themselves perfect or close to it. Those who know salvation is secure realize that their is nothing in them that could ever save them or keep their salvation so they run to love and the God who freely justifies them.

Be Blessed.

Well I enjoyed starting this thread. It did me good to discuss this with those who where pleasant. I also learned other things in reading all the postings. But that I will keep to myself.

For myself, I don't want to be locked into an endless debate when a careful study of the scriptures and research for eternal security on the internet would bring good teachers and scholars that are more knowledgeable than me in explaining the true Gospel.

I accomplished for myself what I set out to do and learned some personal things. So, I am moving on. I will not be responding on this thread any more and will be unwatching it.

So, for the rest of the group that wishes to post have fun and be blessed.

Be Blessed.

112358 · Apr 27, 2018

EternallyKeptByJesus said:
That is false. I don't toss any scriptures out, I like other OSAS understand the truth of what so many scriptures in context actually says. For example this one in context is not talking to believers but to Jews who was contemplating Jesus as messiah. The will full sin is rejecting Jesus, that is why there remains no more sacrifice for sins or do you suggest that there one can still sacrifice animals to have sins covered.

Be Blessed.

"Counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing..."

These are christian jews. They had already accepted Jesus as messiah, friend. The context of the rest of the book of Hebrews makes this clear.

Doug Melven · Apr 27, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
My brother thinks it’s ok to get drunk everyday and smoke marijuana because Jesus paid for his sins. His exact words.

This person does not understand grace
Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soverly, righteous and godly in this present world.

Deadworm said:
I consider it particularly urgent to refute the eternal security heresy because of its status as the Gospel of cheap grace and because of the way it unintentionally condones backsliding. Let me illustrate.

Grace is not cheap. Read all of the Crucifixion accounts, and Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 and you will see grace is not cheap. God saw that man was sinful and nothing in him was good. God knew that man could NEVER measure up to His standard. We could NEVER be acceptable to Him. So He gave His Son in our place. And all we have to do is believe in Jesus and what He did on the cross. 1 Corinthians 2:2
.If this offends you, that nothing else is required, you are offended by the Cross.

Deadworm said:
A Baptist preacher in my home town gave an altar call after an evangelistic sermon. To motivate sinners to come forward, he bellowed: "If you come forward and sincerely ask Jesus to save you, you can curse God to His face as you leave here, and nothing can away your salvation!" OSASers try unsuccessfully to distance themselves from such examples. Beginning tomorrow night, I will present one Scripture each night that refutes this blasphemous heresy. So stay tuned and please engage.

This preacher didn't understand grace. This preacher didn't understand salvation at all.
Jesus said those who are forgiven much, love much.

nonaeroterraqueous said:
You've never met my family. Their attitude is that regardless of what the Bible says, a thing is not a sin if the "Holy Spirit" leads them to do it, and if they're wrong...oh, well, God's grace will cover it.

The Holy Spirit will never lead someone to sin.
Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

What do you anti-eternal security people do with Scriptures like
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Psalms 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Do you think we are God's employees and if we don't work hard enough God will fire us?
Or do you think we are on God's Team and our performance better be good enough or we will be cut afrom the Team?

I ask you what parent would say to there child, "I am tired of you not doing what you are told, I disown you"?

Deadworm · Apr 27, 2018

Let's begin to consider the first of a blizzard of NT texts that refute the grace-cheapening heresy of eternal security:

(1) Galatians Paul addresses believers who have received the Holy Spirit, but some of whom have drifted into legalism and other sins.

(a) In Galatians 5, Paul addresses saved Gentiles who have experienced the freedom of the Spirit in Christ, but have been persuaded that they also need to be circumcised. Paul tells these Christians: "Christ will be of no benefit to you"...you have cut yourself off from Christ; have fallen away from grace (5:2, 4)." By implication, these believers have experienced God's grace, only to lose its saving benefit due their legalism.

(b) Paul then warns these Christians: "Do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence (5:13). These saved believers who misuse their freedom can forfeit their salvation: "I am warning you, as I warned you before, those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (5:21). Thus the possibility of believers cutting themselves off from Christ and falling from grace is defined as failure to inherit the kingdom of God--in other words, loss of salvation.

(c) Remember, Paul is addressing foolish Christians who have "started with the Spirit" (3:3) and thus have experienced the freedom that only comes from Christ. So intial reception is the Spirit is not guarantee of ultimate salvation.

Christman811 · Apr 27, 2018

Why ignore my previous post? I have proved how it is possible to reject legalism and still embrace the reality that salvation is not assured to us while we live in this earth. These things are not mutually exclusive.

BNR32FAN · Apr 27, 2018

☦Marius☦ said:
Even if you try to make an argument for faith alone, there is still nowhere in scripture that says just because you had faith for a moment you are saved for eternity.

The scriptures people use to support eternal security are pertaining to outside forces that can not take away your salvation. No one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. This does not mean that someone can not lose their salvation of their own free will.

Doug Melven · Apr 27, 2018

Deadworm said:
Let's begin to consider the first of a blizzard of NT texts that refute the grace-cheapening heresy of eternal security:

(1) Galatians Paul addresses believers who have received the Holy Spirit, but some of whom have drifted into legalism and other sins.

(a) In Galatians 5, Paul addresses saved Gentiles who have experienced the freedom of the Spirit in Christ, but have been persuaded that they also need to be circumcised. Paul tells these Christians: "Christ will be of no benefit to you"...you have cut yourself off from Christ; have fallen away from grace (5:2, 4)." By implication, these believers have experienced God's grace, only to lose its saving benefit due their legalism.

(b) Paul then warns these Christians: "Do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence (5:13). These saved believers who misuse their freedom can forfeit their salvation: "I am warning you, as I warned you before, those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (5:21). Thus the possibility of believers cutting themselves off from Christ and falling from grace is defined as failure to inherit the kingdom of God--in other words, loss of salvation.

(c) Remember, Paul is addressing foolish Christians who have "started with the Spirit" (3:3) and thus have experienced the freedom that only comes from Christ. So intial reception is the Spirit is not guarantee of ultimate salvation.

Paul is not talking about salvation, he is talking about the benefits Christ gives believers.
Like the fruit of the Spirit.
And if we were to believe what you are saying, we would be trying to make sure we were doing good works to make sure we stay saved. That would be salvation by works. We are kept by the power of God, not our works.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

arabianhorselover · Apr 27, 2018

I agree with the last two posters. I can certainly see why people want to believe in OSAS, but I don't think the Bible supports that. My church believes in Grace Through Faith, but also believes that one can lose their salvation by falling away.

arabianhorselover · Apr 27, 2018

Well, not the last one, actually.

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