Impassability of God?

food4thought

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The eternal Word (a divine Person) did indeed suffer. Because he had a human nature which suffered. What belongs to one nature, belongs to the whole Person: therefore we can say "God suffered". But what belongs to one nature, does not belong to the other, so we cannot say "God in his divine nature suffered". The technical term is "the communication of properties" (communicatio idiomatum).

No offense, as I know this did not originate with you, but... isn't that kind of a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too? I just don't see how both of those bolded statements can be true.
 
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food4thought

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I have a problem with it myself, but in a different sense. If we go back to the "beginning" when God is alone, before He created anything, and there was only Father, Son and Holy Ghost, then where did He (They?) get the concepts of created pain, sex, day, night, male, female, etc. which are so much a part of this world, and then proceed to build a universe in which these are part of it's warp and weave, when God Himself had no personal experience of these things, in His own being?

I mean to make it a bit lurid - take the human sex act. Why the heck would a sexless God, alone in paradise, come up with this method of reproduction??

There's a film around about a celebrated Australian cameraman in World War II named Damien Parer (killed in action 17 September, 1944, Peleliu Island while filming American troops). During the movie, which briefly included his marriage and honeymoon, at one point Parer and his new wife were fumbling around trying to do their marital duty for the first time. Parer quipped "Whoever decided on this just has to be a comedian!!" or something similar.

So the point is, does God feel pain, joy, etc. If He doesn't, then how did He devise something like pain receptors or for that matter, the somewhat peculiar sex act, which is partly meant to bond men and women together as part of a marriage relationship, in view of the fact these things are alien to His whole existence?

Interesting question.

The way I see it is that God does have an imagination. People in the entertainment industry come up with all kinds of things that don't exist. JMO
 
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hedrick

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No offense, as I know this did not originate with you, but... isn't that kind of a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too? I just don't see how both of those bolded statements can be true.
Perhaps. But sometimes reality is just difficult.

On the one hand, we have God who is omniscient, who created everything and thus is in some way outside of the universe, not bound to time. On the other hand we have him become human and subject to all of the constraints of humanity.

There’s no way to avoid difficult questions when you look at this with any seriousness.

Theology isn’t alone with this kind of problem. Early in the 20th Cent physics had a problem that light seemed to behave both like a wave and a particle. The final way of handling that — quantum mechanics — is at least as weird as the theology of the Incarnation.

it may be that the right approach is to say that the ideas about God being impassible and outside time are simply not Biblical, but are imports from philosophical concepts. That’s open theism, which is certainly held by a number of Christians. Some of the time I find it attractive. But it may also be that reality is just difficult to understand and explain.

You need to look at just what the basis for the "philosophical" ideas of God are. How much are they based on Scripture? On the other hand, what are the implications of relaxing them? One troubling implication I see is that if God is involved in history, is the vision of his eventual triumph from the Prophets and NT actually known, or is just something he hopes to do? Also, what are the doctrinal implications? Historically, the Trinity and the two-nature model of the Incarnation are at least in part motivated by protecting God from direct involvement in suffering. Would rejecting impassibility remove the need for them?

Of the philosophical attributes, impassibility seems like the easiest to relax. Consider someone reading a book. They can be involved with the characters and suffer with them, even though they clearly are not bound to the fictional world in which they exist. Some authors seem to say that this is true even for the author, who after all is responsible for creating them. Indeed most proponents of impassibility today seem to allow this kind of vicarious suffering. The current defenses of impassibility I've seen (and pointed to above) seem to defend a seriously qualified kind of impassibility.
 
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food4thought

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Perhaps. But sometimes reality is just difficult.

On the one hand, we have God who is omniscient, who created everything and thus is in some way outside of the universe, not bound to time. On the other hand we have him become human and subject to all of the constraints of humanity.

There’s no way to avoid difficult questions when you look at this with any seriousness.

Theology isn’t alone with this kind of problem. Early in the 20th Cent physics had a problem that light seemed to behave both like a wave and a particle. The final way of handling that — quantum mechanics — is at least as weird as the theology of the Incarnation.

it may be that the right approach is to say that the ideas about God being impassible and outside time are simply not Biblical, but are imports from philosophical concepts. That’s open theism, which is certainly held by a number of Christians. Some of the time I find it attractive. But it may also be that reality is just difficult to understand and explain.

You need to look at just what the basis for the "philosophical" ideas of God are. How much are they based on Scripture? On the other hand, what are the implications of relaxing them? One troubling implication I see is that if God is involved in history, is the vision of his eventual triumph from the Prophets and NT actually known, or is just something he hopes to do? Also, what are the doctrinal implications? Historically, the Trinity and the two-nature model of the Incarnation are at least in part motivated by protecting God from direct involvement in suffering. Would rejecting impassibility remove the need for them?

Of the philosophical attributes, impassibility seems like the easiest to relax. Consider someone reading a book. They can be involved with the characters and suffer with them, even though they clearly are not bound to the fictional world in which they exist. Some authors seem to say that this is true even for the author, who after all is responsible for creating them. Indeed most proponents of impassibility today seem to allow this kind of vicarious suffering. The current defenses of impassibility I've seen (and pointed to above) seem to defend a seriously qualified kind of impassibility.

Thanks again for a thoughtful and informative reply, Hedrick.

I understand that this is definitely a thorny theological problem, but why did Chalcedon have to take such a positive stance on an issue that we all can admit we don't fully understand? What is wrong with just saying we don't know for sure how exactly this works itself out, and we can accept multiple viewpoints on this subject? It just seems like arrogance on their part to make such a strong statement about something so uncertain...

Sorry, just needed to vent there... I really appreciate you all for taking the time to answer me!
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Impassibility of God
Classic theism teaches that God is impassible — not subject to suffering, pain, or the ebb and flow of involuntary passions. (theopedia.com)

I have a problem with the doctrine of the impassability of God. If God is truly not subject to suffering or pain, then in what sense did the Son of God suffer at the cross? Why does the Scripture refer to the "sufferings" of Christ (2 Corinthians 1:5; Philippians 3:10; Hebrews 2:10; 1 Peter 1:11; 1 Peter 5:1; etc.)? Is Christ not God of God, Light of Light, begotten, not made? This brings me to my problem: the council of Chalcedon expels from the priesthood anyone who denies the impassability of God... I am at odds with a declaration of the 4th ecumenical council... am I still orthodox in my beliefs, or am I a heretic? Should I even care what they thought?

Help!

You do not think that Jesus suffered? Seriously? What about Jesus in the garden asking the father to take this cup while he was sweating blood...

I suggest you do a study.

  • 1 Peter 2:19-24
    For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully. For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
    "Who committed no sin,
    Nor was deceit found in His mouth"; who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
  • Hebrews 5:7-8
    who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
  • Isaiah 53:3-12
    He is despised and rejected by men,
    A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
    And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
    He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
    Surely He has borne our griefs
    And carried our sorrows;
    Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
    Smitten by God, and afflicted.
    But He was wounded for our transgressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities;
    The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed.
    All we like sheep have gone astray;
    We have turned, every one, to his own way;
    And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
    He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
    Yet He opened not His mouth;
    He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
    And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    So He opened not His mouth.
    He was taken from prison and from judgment,
    And who will declare His generation?
    For He was cut off from the land of the living;
    For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
    And they made His grave with the wicked—
    But with the rich at His death,
    Because He had done no violence,
    Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
    Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
    He has put Him to grief.
    When You make His soul an offering for sin,
    He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
    And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
    He shall see the labor of His soul,and be satisfied.
    By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
    For He shall bear their iniquities.
    Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
    And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
    Because He poured out His soul unto death,
    And He was numbered with the transgressors,
    And He bore the sin of many,
    And made intercession for the transgressors.
  • Hebrews 2:9-11
    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
  • Matthew 27:46
    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
  • Isaiah 52:14
    Just as many were astonished at you,
    So His visage was marred more than any man,
    And His form more than the sons of men;
  • Matthew 26:39
    He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."
  • John 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
  • Romans 8:17-18
    and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
  • Philippians 2:5-11
    Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
  • 1 Peter 4:1-2
    Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
  • 1 Peter 4:13
    but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.
  • Zechariah 12:10
    “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
  • Matthew 26:42
    Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done."
  • Philippians 3:10-12
    that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
  • Hebrews 4:15
    For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
  • Luke 22:44
    And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
  • John 18:11
    So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?”
  • John 19:28-32
    After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
  • John 19:34
    But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
  • 1 Corinthians 11:26-28
    For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
  • 2 Corinthians 5:21
    For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
  • Hebrews 2:14
    Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
  • Hebrews 2:17
    Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
  • Hebrews 9:26
    He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
  • 1 Peter 1:10-11
    Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
  • 1 Peter 3:18
    For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
 
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food4thought

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Upon further reflection, this post deserved more than just my knee-jerk original reaction...
Perhaps. But sometimes reality is just difficult.

So true.

On the one hand, we have God who is omniscient, who created everything and thus is in some way outside of the universe, not bound to time. On the other hand we have him become human and subject to all of the constraints of humanity.

There’s no way to avoid difficult questions when you look at this with any seriousness.

I know. I was trying to wrap my mind around Chalcedon, and I recognize that they were boxed in by theological speculation in the eastern half of the empire. Why not allow the speculation, so long as it was recognized that there was no official church position on the matter?

Theology isn’t alone with this kind of problem. Early in the 20th Cent physics had a problem that light seemed to behave both like a wave and a particle. The final way of handling that — quantum mechanics — is at least as weird as the theology of the Incarnation.

Yeah, I still don't understand quantum mechanics. Never read much on it, but I hear it's truly mind bending.

it may be that the right approach is to say that the ideas about God being impassible and outside time are simply not Biblical, but are imports from philosophical concepts. That’s open theism, which is certainly held by a number of Christians. Some of the time I find it attractive. But it may also be that reality is just difficult to understand and explain.

I have no problem with God being outside time, it's just impassibility that I take issue with. I can't agree with open theism from the little I know about it.

You need to look at just what the basis for the "philosophical" ideas of God are. How much are they based on Scripture?

Exactly my question. It seems to me that the God of the Bible does suffer. Not unbridled passions, and He is never reactive or surprised. But He does suffer.

On the other hand, what are the implications of relaxing them?

I admit I haven't thought much on that subject yet. It could be that I come around on impassibility if it can be shown to me that a God who suffers is not the God of Scripture.

One troubling implication I see is that if God is involved in history, is the vision of his eventual triumph from the Prophets and NT actually known, or is just something he hopes to do?

That has more to do with open Theism and their view of God as not outside time. I don't see how the two ideas (passibility and God being in time) are linked...

Also, what are the doctrinal implications? Historically, the Trinity and the two-nature model of the Incarnation are at least in part motivated by protecting God from direct involvement in suffering. Would rejecting impassibility remove the need for them?

The Trinity seems to me to be the best we can do given the revelation of Scripture. The Chalcedonian understanding of the dual-nature of Christ, I am not so sure about that. I just think it's another area where differing views should be held within the realm of orthodoxy.

Of the philosophical attributes, impassibility seems like the easiest to relax. Consider someone reading a book. They can be involved with the characters and suffer with them, even though they clearly are not bound to the fictional world in which they exist. Some authors seem to say that this is true even for the author, who after all is responsible for creating them. Indeed most proponents of impassibility today seem to allow this kind of vicarious suffering. The current defenses of impassibility I've seen (and pointed to above) seem to defend a seriously qualified kind of impassibility.

They focus more on the emotional aspect, and do not seem anxious to address the idea of suffering.
 
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food4thought

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You do not think that Jesus suffered? Seriously? What about Jesus in the garden asking the father to take this cup while he was sweating blood...

I suggest you do a study.

  • 1 Peter 2:19-24
    For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully. For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
    "Who committed no sin,
    Nor was deceit found in His mouth"; who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
  • Hebrews 5:7-8
    who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
  • Isaiah 53:3-12
    He is despised and rejected by men,
    A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
    And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
    He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
    Surely He has borne our griefs
    And carried our sorrows;
    Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
    Smitten by God, and afflicted.
    But He was wounded for our transgressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities;
    The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed.
    All we like sheep have gone astray;
    We have turned, every one, to his own way;
    And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
    He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
    Yet He opened not His mouth;
    He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
    And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    So He opened not His mouth.
    He was taken from prison and from judgment,
    And who will declare His generation?
    For He was cut off from the land of the living;
    For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
    And they made His grave with the wicked—
    But with the rich at His death,
    Because He had done no violence,
    Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
    Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
    He has put Him to grief.
    When You make His soul an offering for sin,
    He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
    And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
    He shall see the labor of His soul,and be satisfied.
    By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
    For He shall bear their iniquities.
    Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
    And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
    Because He poured out His soul unto death,
    And He was numbered with the transgressors,
    And He bore the sin of many,
    And made intercession for the transgressors.
  • Hebrews 2:9-11
    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
  • Matthew 27:46
    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
  • Isaiah 52:14
    Just as many were astonished at you,
    So His visage was marred more than any man,
    And His form more than the sons of men;

  • Matthew 26:39
    He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."
  • John 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
  • Romans 8:17-18
    and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
  • Philippians 2:5-11
    Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
  • 1 Peter 4:1-2
    Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
  • 1 Peter 4:13
    but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.
  • Zechariah 12:10
    “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
  • Matthew 26:42
    Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done."
  • Philippians 3:10-12
    that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
  • Hebrews 4:15
    For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
  • Luke 22:44
    And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
  • John 18:11
    So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?”
  • John 19:28-32
    After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
  • John 19:34
    But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
  • 1 Corinthians 11:26-28
    For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
  • 2 Corinthians 5:21
    For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

  • Hebrews 2:14
    Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
  • Hebrews 2:17
    Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
  • Hebrews 9:26
    He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
  • 1 Peter 1:10-11
    Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
  • 1 Peter 3:18
    For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Hi 2Timothy2:15. Great post... but I think you need to re-read what I have written. My problem is with the doctrine of impassability, I am not advocating it. Thanks for the response;
Michael
 
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Micah888

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Should I even care what they thought?
Since this is another attempt to delve into the Mystery of God with the limitations of the human mind, let it go. Christ -- as fully God and fully sinless Man -- suffered intensely for our sins. That should suffice. Indeed, that is all that really matters. His sufferings, death, burial, and resurrection. Leave the philosophising to the philosophers.
 
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food4thought

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Since this is another attempt to delve into the Mystery of God with the limitations of the human mind, let it go. Christ -- as fully God and fully sinless Man -- suffered intensely for our sins. That should suffice. Indeed, that is all that really matters. His sufferings, death, burial, and resurrection. Leave the philosophising to the philosophers.

Thanks for the advice, Micah888. In this case, I can't ignore it because I am a Bible teacher and need to know whether or not what I intend to teach is heretical or not. And if it is, I have to decide whether to follow my understanding or correct my understanding to remain orthodox. That requires me to delve into this mystery a bit, and perhaps try to understand why Chalcedon ruled the way they did.
 
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hedrick

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I understand that this is definitely a thorny theological problem, but why did Chalcedon have to take such a positive stance on an issue that we all can admit we don't fully understand?
By the time of Chalcedon the Church had developed a tradition of taking official positions and rejecting heretics.

Did they need to reject Arianism and eject all Arians? Some people think there were political consequences to theology, that compromising on Arianism would have seriously weakened the Church. But there are other motivations as well, some good and some bad. It's pretty clear that in many cases accusations of heresy were used as tools in church politics. E.g. most church histories will tell you that the posthumous rejection of Theodore of Mopsuestia was an attempt to conciliate a group that disliked him. (The attempt failed, by the way.) There were also political conflicts between Alexandria and Antioch. Chalcedon was in many ways an attempt to reach a compromise that would allow moderates of both approaches. But for both parties to accept it, they had to outlaw the representatives of each tradition that the other considered particularly obnoxious.

But there were also positions that were unacceptable to ordinary Christians because of the implications for piety and worship. One of the major issues at Chalcedon was Nestorianism. While you can argue that Nestorius' theology had serious flaws, it's pretty clear that a lot of the motivation for suppressing him was popular revulsion about his refusal to call Mary the Mother of God. My reading of the history is that you should imagine how conservative Christians feel about homosexuality. That was the kind of feeling driving it. Similarly, Christians were by that time quite committed to seeing Christ as God. The Arians attacked that.

Before you ask which side was right, the first question you have to ask is, could disagreement have been tolerated? This is a question the continues to this day. I maintain that the Protestant community has been badly served by this tradition. The Reformers disagreed with the Catholics on some issues. But rather than saying, maybe we should tolerate disagreement, the Protestant tradition ended up just as rigid, but ended up not being able to agree. So we now have lots of warring theologies.

See e.g. this article: Six Heretics that should be Banned from Evangelicalism. The article is a satire from a progressive evangelical web site. (The heretics are C S Lewis, Martin Luther, Augustine, William Barclay, John Stott, and Billy Graham, all of whom held views unacceptable to many evangelicals. They didn't mention John Wesley, but could have.)

Modern theology doesn't follow Chalcedon literally, though there's no question that we have to see Christ in some way as both human and God. But modern theology isn't very popular in the US, and can't be fully discussed in CF. N T Wright is a conservative theologian by European and British standards, but he rejects Chalcedon, although he maintains that Christ is both human and God.

Modern theology is also based on an attempt to read the NT in a 1st Cent Jewish context. The Jewish context was at last in large part jettisoned by the early Church both because of bad blood with contemporary Jews and because of a need to explain Christianity in a way that would be intelligible to current intellectuals. That mean replacing Jewish concepts with ones understandable in Greek philosophy. Theologians did understand that Biblical ideas went beyond what Greek philosophy could understand, so they did have to do major adaptations, but still, that was the context.
 
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food4thought

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By the time of Chalcedon the Church had developed a tradition of taking official positions and rejecting heretics.

A good part of that tradition was for good reason, but we should have known when to stop.

Did they need to reject Arianism and eject all Arians?

Certainly yes, they rejected the full Deity of Jesus Christ, which the Bible clearly upholds.

Some people think there were political consequences to theology, that compromising on Arianism would have seriously weakened the Church. But there are other motivations as well, some good and some bad. It's pretty clear that in many cases accusations of heresy were used as tools in church politics. E.g. most church histories will tell you that the posthumous rejection of Theodore of Mopsuestia was an attempt to conciliate a group that disliked him. (The attempt failed, by the way.) There were also political conflicts between Alexandria and Antioch. Chalcedon was in many ways an attempt to reach a compromise that would allow moderates of both approaches. But for both parties to accept it, they had to outlaw the representatives of each tradition that the other considered particularly obnoxious.

Political realities did indeed play a large role in Chalcedon, which is part of the reason why I have such a difficult time accepting it.

But there were also positions that were unacceptable to ordinary Christians because of the implications for piety and worship. One of the major issues at Chalcedon was Nestorianism.

Yeah, Nestorius made Christ out to be suffering from multiple personality disorder. Big problem that needed to be addressed.

While you can argue that Nestorius' theology had serious flaws,

Understatement lol

it's pretty clear that a lot of the motivation for suppressing him was popular revulsion about his refusal to call Mary the Mother of God. My reading of the history is that you should imagine how conservative Christians feel about homosexuality. That was the kind of feeling driving it.

Wasn't familiar with that nuance, thanks for the historical info.

Similarly, Christians were by that time quite committed to seeing Christ as God. The Arians attacked that.

Arianism is an obvious heresy, directly contradicting John 1:1-3.

Before you ask which side was right, the first question you have to ask is, could disagreement have been tolerated?

Not on Arianism, and not on Nestorianism.

This is a question the continues to this day. I maintain that the Protestant community has been badly served by this tradition.

True.

The Reformers disagreed with the Catholics on some issues.

Understatement lol

But rather than saying, maybe we should tolerate disagreement, the Protestant tradition ended up just as rigid, but ended up not being able to agree. So we now have lots of warring theologies.

I doubt that Catholics and serious protestants could get along in the same congregation even today... Catholics hold too much extra-biblical dogma that doesn't need to be held in such high regard, not to mention the issue with Papal infallibility, Mary, and the Saints... those who take either faith seriously would just disagree in too many ways.

See e.g. this article: Six Heretics that should be Banned from Evangelicalism. The article is a satire from a progressive evangelical web site. (The heretics are C S Lewis, Martin Luther, Augustine, William Barclay, John Stott, and Billy Graham, all of whom held views unacceptable to many evangelicals. They didn't mention John Wesley, but could have.)

Good read. Every disagreement does not have to end in schism.

Modern theology doesn't follow Chalcedon literally, though there's no question that we have to see Christ in some way as both human and God. But modern theology isn't very popular in the US, and can't be fully discussed in CF. N T Wright is a conservative theologian by European and British standards, but he rejects Chalcedon, although he maintains that Christ is both human and God.

I admit I have not read NT Wright, but have heard some negative things that I can't remember what exactly they were. There does have to be limits to inclusion, don't you think?

Modern theology is also based on an attempt to read the NT in a 1st Cent Jewish context.

I can get behind that, I think. Remember that Jesus roundly condemned the first century Jewish understandings of many things, though.

The Jewish context was at last in large part jettisoned by the early Church both because of bad blood with contemporary Jews and because of a need to explain Christianity in a way that would be intelligible to current intellectuals. That mean replacing Jewish concepts with ones understandable in Greek philosophy. Theologians did understand that Biblical ideas went beyond what Greek philosophy could understand, so they did have to do major adaptations, but still, that was the context.

Yep, there was a certain amount of Hellenization of the faith after the first century or two. By the time of Constantine it was in full bloom. They did not take on Greek philosophy wholesale, to their credit, but it was an overly strong influence I think.
 
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hedrick

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Yeah, Nestorius made Christ out to be suffering from multiple personality disorder. Big problem that needed to be addressed.
That’s probably not true. Nestorius denies that he teaches two sons. He says that there is one Christ with two natures, which of course is orthodox.

There are disagreements today about what the real issues were. Part of this is because most of his works were destroyed. The largest one survives only in translation. Also, it appears that his section of the church used terms differently.

As far as I can tell, the underlying issue is anhypostasia, the idea that there's no human person in Christ. This is the normal version of orthodox Christology. When I read Athanasius, the impression I get is that there’s no Jesus. The Logos wields a human body, but there’s no real human being. Indeed one gets the impression from Athanasius that there isn’t a human mind, though he never quite says it. When that issue was taken up later, it was decided that there actually was a human mind. Later on it was decided that there was a human will. But still, there isn’t exactly a human person. It may be an exaggeration to say that the Logos assumes all the parts of a person without an actual person, but I often get that impression.

My layman’s impression of Nestorius is that for him the Logos assumed not just human nature but an actual human being. However it’s still an Incarnation, there’s still just one Son of God.

Both views have their disadvantages. But it’s not obvious that we need to consider either non-Christian.

It may be that this is in part terminology. Nestorius was operating within a different tradition, and used a term “prosopon,” which isn’t exactly the same as hypostasis. So it’s not entirely clear that he actually said there were two hypostases in Christ. A prosopon is a bit more individualized than a nature, but probably not as much as a hypostasis.

Acquinas’ explanation of the Incarnation deals with this issue by saying that Christ’s human nature is individualized. That is, the Logos assumes not just all the parts of a human, but an actual individual of human nature. So why isn’t he Nestorian? Why isn’t he saying that the Logos assumes a human person? Because there’s a special rule that prevents calling Christ’s human individual a person, even though it’s identical in nature to every other human person.

For him a hypostasis is a complete, independent entity. Christ’s human nature isn’t complete, because it’s part of Christ. So even though it’s exactly the same thing as any other human person, we don’t call it a person because it’s the incarnation of the Logos. It seems to me that this may be what Nestorius was getting at by saying that it while the Logos assumed a prosopon, there’s still only one Son. It is quite possible that Nestorius’ prosopon is Acquinas’ individualized human.

Acquinas’ treatment is clearly better, but I’m not sure that Nestorius was trying to say was actually heretical.

I think it’s pretty obvious from context that the initial problem with Nestorius was that he denied that Mary was the Mother of God. That led Cyril to interpret him as unsympathetically as possible.
 
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food4thought

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That’s probably not true. Nestorius denies that he teaches two sons. He says that there is one Christ with two natures, which of course is orthodox.

There are disagreements today about what the real issues were. Part of this is because most of his works were destroyed. The largest one survives only in translation. Also, it appears that his section of the church used terms differently.

As far as I can tell, the underlying issue is anhypostasia, the idea that there's no human person in Christ. This is the normal version of orthodox Christology. When I read Athanasius, the impression I get is that there’s no Jesus. The Logos wields a human body, but there’s no real human being. Indeed one gets the impression from Athanasius that there isn’t a human mind, though he never quite says it. When that issue was taken up later, it was decided that there actually was a human mind. Later on it was decided that there was a human will. But still, there isn’t exactly a human person. It may be an exaggeration to say that the Logos assumes all the parts of a person without an actual person, but I often get that impression.

My layman’s impression of Nestorius is that for him the Logos assumed not just human nature but an actual human being. However it’s still an Incarnation, there’s still just one Son of God.

Both views have their disadvantages. But it’s not obvious that we need to consider either non-Christian.

It may be that this is in part terminology. Nestorius was operating within a different tradition, and used a term “prosopon,” which isn’t exactly the same as hypostasis. So it’s not entirely clear that he actually said there were two hypostases in Christ. A prosopon is a bit more individualized than a nature, but probably not as much as a hypostasis.

Acquinas’ explanation of the Incarnation deals with this issue by saying that Christ’s human nature is individualized. That is, the Logos assumes not just all the parts of a human, but an actual individual of human nature. So why isn’t he Nestorian? Why isn’t he saying that the Logos assumes a human person? Because there’s a special rule that prevents calling Christ’s human individual a person, even though it’s identical in nature to every other human person.

For him a hypostasis is a complete, independent entity. Christ’s human nature isn’t complete, because it’s part of Christ. So even though it’s exactly the same thing as any other human person, we don’t call it a person because it’s the incarnation of the Logos. It seems to me that this may be what Nestorius was getting at by saying that it while the Logos assumed a prosopon, there’s still only one Son. It is quite possible that Nestorius’ prosopon is Acquinas’ individualized human.

Acquinas’ treatment is clearly better, but I’m not sure that Nestorius was trying to say was actually heretical.

I think it’s pretty obvious from context that the initial problem with Nestorius was that he denied that Mary was the Mother of God. That led Cyril to interpret him as unsympathetically as possible.

~sighs and shakes head~

Maybe Micah888 has the right idea... the whole statement of faith from Chalcedon is troubling to me, but not the real issue. The issue is impassibility, and I'd like to get back to that if we could.

Is a God who suffers necessarily passable? Did the ancients have only the emotional side in mind?
 
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hedrick

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~sighs and shakes head~

Maybe Micah888 has the right idea... the whole statement of faith from Chalcedon is troubling to me, but not the real issue. The issue is impassibility, and I'd like to get back to that if we could.

Is a God who suffers necessarily passable? Did the ancients have only the emotional side in mind?
take a look at this: Jesus and the Identity of God. It's Wright's attempt to look at Christology within the NT / Jewish worldview.

You're correct that Wright is controversial among conservatives. There are several reasons:
* His understanding of Paul is within the New Perspective. This attempts to look at him from a Jewish context rather than as the 16th Cent understood him.
* His Christology is similar.
* He doesn't believe in inerrancy (in theory -- it's not a big issue with him)

In my view the Reformers made a great start. The parts of theology they looked at carefully were improved. But they still retained a lot of traditions. Wright and many other modern theologians are looking at what it would be like to do theology directly in New Testament terms. There’s a lot of similarity to normal Protestant theology, but also some differences.
 
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Micah888

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Thanks for the advice, Micah888. In this case, I can't ignore it because I am a Bible teacher and need to know whether or not what I intend to teach is heretical or not
Since the Lord Jesus Christ is indeed God, and in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2:9), then God as the Man Christ Jesus was fully capable of experiencing suffering.

While suffering does not apply to the Father and the Holy Spirit, we know from Scripture that at least one Person of the Godhead suffered intensely. But we do NOT know how the Father and the Holy Spirit suffered while Christ suffered. That is hidden from us, and men need not go beyond Scripture.
 
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take a look at this: Jesus and the Identity of God. It's Wright's attempt to look at Christology within the NT / Jewish worldview.

You're correct that Wright is controversial among conservatives. There are several reasons:
* His understanding of Paul is within the New Perspective. This attempts to look at him from a Jewish context rather than as the 16th Cent understood him.
* His Christology is similar.
* He doesn't believe in inerrancy (in theory -- it's not a big issue with him)

In my view the Reformers made a great start. The parts of theology they looked at carefully were improved. But they still retained a lot of traditions. Wright and many other modern theologians are looking at what it would be like to do theology directly in New Testament terms. There’s a lot of similarity to normal Protestant theology, but also some differences.
I appreciate what you're trying to do, but my conservative roots go deep, and God met me through the context of conservative evangelical Christianity. That was an interesting article, and there might be some validity to His view of Jesus' self identity, but I don't know for sure. It all seems so speculative...
 
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No offense, as I know this did not originate with you, but... isn't that kind of a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too? I just don't see how both of those bolded statements can be true.
Yes, it is a very precise and difficult area of theology we're dealing with here. But I dont' think there's a contradiction. And for many, this separation of nature and person is not unproblematic. But to the statements:
What belongs to one nature, belongs to the whole Person: therefore we can say "God suffered"
If I were to be very technical, I would have said: the Person of God the Son, in his human nature, suffered. Since the Person of God the Son had a true human nature and was truly human, he truly experienced pain. On account of this, we can say that God (a divine Person) suffered (a human experience).

But what belongs to one nature, does not belong to the other, so we cannot say "God in his divine nature suffered".
This is meant to guard against obviously false statements, such as "God is created" or "man is uncreated". Yes, Christ (i.e. the uncreated God) had a created human nature. But there is no communication of properties here.

However, this is were it gets tricky: the human nature of Christ has been glorified and given abilities that human do not have, such as raising from the dead, walking through walls (John 20:19), being present in the Eucharist (but that is another topic!), going uo into the heavens etc. I would argue that it is first and foremost the Person who acts. Christ is omnipotent (because he is God), but his human nature isolated from his divine nature is not omnipotent. In the same vein, Christ suffered (because he is man), but his divine nature isolated from his human nature did not suffer.

So we can say "God suffered", but we cannot say "God, in his divine nature alone, did suffer".
 
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food4thought

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Yes, it is a very precise and difficult area of theology we're dealing with here. But I dont' think there's a contradiction. And for many, this separation of nature and person is not unproblematic.

It is definitely problematic for me, but I want to stay within the bounds of orthodoxy. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a contradiction, but it is obviously carefully worded to avoid one when it seems one is almost unavoidable.

But to the statements:

If I were to be very technical, I would have said: the Person of God the Son, in his human nature, suffered. Since the Person of God the Son had a true human nature and was truly human, he truly experienced pain. On account of this, we can say that God (a divine Person) suffered (a human experience).


This is meant to guard against obviously false statements, such as "God is created" or "man is uncreated". Yes, Christ (i.e. the uncreated God) had a created human nature. But there is no communication of properties here.

I'm with you so far. The communication of properties is a bit fuzzy, but I think I get the gist of what your saying, and agree.

However, this is were it gets tricky: the human nature of Christ has been glorified and given abilities that human do not have, such as raising from the dead, walking through walls (John 20:19), being present in the Eucharist (but that is another topic!), going uo into the heavens etc. I would argue that it is first and foremost the Person who acts. Christ is omnipotent (because he is God), but his human nature isolated from his divine nature is not omnipotent. In the same vein, Christ suffered (because he is man), but his divine nature isolated from his human nature did not suffer.

So we can say "God suffered", but we cannot say "God, in his divine nature alone, did suffer".

OK, now you lost me. You've already stated that Christ's Divine nature suffered, but now your trying to say He didn't suffer, too?
 
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Since the Lord Jesus Christ is indeed God, and in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2:9), then God as the Man Christ Jesus was fully capable of experiencing suffering.

While suffering does not apply to the Father and the Holy Spirit, we know from Scripture that at least one Person of the Godhead suffered intensely. But we do NOT know how the Father and the Holy Spirit suffered while Christ suffered. That is hidden from us, and men need not go beyond Scripture.

Thanks Micah888. I can completely agree with that statement.
 
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