I find it interesting that most people appear to be Open Theists without even knowing it

HatGuy · Apr 26, 2018

This is an interesting observation I thought might stir some interesting discussion.

I often ask people how they think God's plan for their lives work, how they think God works with time and the future etc., and have listened to their responses.

Most people, in my experience, don't seem to know quite how to explain their view in words, so I try to help them a bit with some options. I'll present a basic Calvinist / determinist view, then an Arminian / forewknowledge view, and then an Open Theist view (not necessarily in that order) without actually giving each view names. When I present the options (without naming them) most people tend to go for the Open Theist option, saying that sounds more in tune with their own thinking.

I'm including pastors and leaders. They have often done the same.

I find that interesting. Open Theism is considered a heresy in a lot of circles. Yet when you press people for answers without telling them the name of what it is you're actually explaining, they tend to go for the Open Theist answer.

Why is that?

Alpha.Omega · Apr 26, 2018

HatGuy said:
This is an interesting observation I thought might stir some interesting discussion.

I often ask people how they think God's plan for their lives work, how they think God works with time and the future etc., and have listened to their responses.

Most people, in my experience, don't seem to know quite how to explain their view in words, so I try to help them a bit with some options. I'll present a basic Calvinist / determinist view, then an Arminian / forewknowledge view, and then an Open Theist view (not necessarily in that order) without actually giving each view names. When I present the options (without naming them) most people tend to go for the Open Theist option, saying that sounds more in tune with their own thinking.

I'm including pastors and leaders. They have often done the same.

I find that interesting. Open Theism is considered a heresy in a lot of circles. Yet when you press people for answers without telling them the name of what it is you're actually explaining, they tend to go for the Open Theist answer.

Why is that?

"Open Theism", is, and always be RANK HERESY, as it robs God of His Omniscience, and Sovereignty.

Ken Rank · Apr 26, 2018

HatGuy said:
This is an interesting observation I thought might stir some interesting discussion.

I often ask people how they think God's plan for their lives work, how they think God works with time and the future etc., and have listened to their responses.

Most people, in my experience, don't seem to know quite how to explain their view in words, so I try to help them a bit with some options. I'll present a basic Calvinist / determinist view, then an Arminian / forewknowledge view, and then an Open Theist view (not necessarily in that order) without actually giving each view names. When I present the options (without naming them) most people tend to go for the Open Theist option, saying that sounds more in tune with their own thinking.

I'm including pastors and leaders. They have often done the same.

I find that interesting. Open Theism is considered a heresy in a lot of circles. Yet when you press people for answers without telling them the name of what it is you're actually explaining, they tend to go for the Open Theist answer.

Why is that?

I would think that might depend on definitions. The generally accepted definition of open theism includes God not know the future. But seeing He is outside of time (time is the result of things He created) then viewing the "timeline" from beginning to end has to be within His ability because, again, He exists outside of time. In fact, I can show two places that tell us that God knew we would fall BEFORE He created us... and since end time prophetic books have been written 2000+ years in advance... then how does He not know?

Ken Rank · Apr 26, 2018

Alpha.Omega said:
"Open Theism", is, and always be RANK HERESY, as it robs God of His Omniscience, and Sovereignty.

I am offended by that.

^_^

HatGuy · Apr 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
I would think that might depend on definitions. The generally accepted definition of open theism includes God not know the future. But seeing He is outside of time (time is the result of things He created) then viewing the "timeline" from beginning to end has to be within His ability because, again, He exists outside of time. In fact, I can show two places that tell us that God knew we would fall BEFORE He created us... and since end time prophetic books have been written 2000+ years in advance... then how does He not know?

Open theism does also claim that God knows every POSSIBLE future, but does not know the future exhaustively, since it doesn't exist.

The 'possible' future bit, I think, is exactly what gets most people to say, "Yes, that makes more sense."

Alpha.Omega · Apr 26, 2018

HatGuy said:
Open theism does also claim that God knows every POSSIBLE future, but does not know the future exhaustively, since it doesn't exist.

The 'possible' future bit, I think, is exactly what gets most people to say, "Yes, that makes more sense."

God is God, Who created the beginning and the end, as HE IS the Beginning and the End. He KNOWS ALL things 100% Perfectly!

Alpha.Omega · Apr 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
I am offended by that.

It is the truth!

Ken Rank · Apr 26, 2018

HatGuy said:
Open theism does also claim that God knows every POSSIBLE future, but does not know the future exhaustively, since it doesn't exist.

The 'possible' future bit, I think, is exactly what gets most people to say, "Yes, that makes more sense."

Well... I wouldn't call it a heresy (as we use THAT word today) but I would call it error. God knows, He is eternal which means time is not relevant. Since we are bound within time... how does He not know? Again, He knew before He made Adam He would fall... the gospel or path home was in place before Adam even fell.

My personal view is God knows what will happen but God doesn't force us or it... He just knows how it plays out.

Tree of Life · Apr 26, 2018

HatGuy said:
This is an interesting observation I thought might stir some interesting discussion.

I often ask people how they think God's plan for their lives work, how they think God works with time and the future etc., and have listened to their responses.

Most people, in my experience, don't seem to know quite how to explain their view in words, so I try to help them a bit with some options. I'll present a basic Calvinist / determinist view, then an Arminian / forewknowledge view, and then an Open Theist view (not necessarily in that order) without actually giving each view names. When I present the options (without naming them) most people tend to go for the Open Theist option, saying that sounds more in tune with their own thinking.

I'm including pastors and leaders. They have often done the same.

I find that interesting. Open Theism is considered a heresy in a lot of circles. Yet when you press people for answers without telling them the name of what it is you're actually explaining, they tend to go for the Open Theist answer.

Why is that?

It's a fleshly view of God that arises from our sinful nature. Unless we are explicitly corrected and taught by the word of God, we will tend to take a view like this.

Doug Melven · Apr 26, 2018

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong.
I have never heard of "Open Theism", but if it says that God can't know the future, then it is wrong as well.
Why does everything have to be put into one of these three little boxes?

Ken Rank · Apr 26, 2018

Alpha.Omega said:
It is the truth!

My last name is Rank... it was a joke hence the laughing emoticon...

Ken Rank · Apr 26, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong.
I have never heard of "Open Theism", but if it says that God can't know the future, then it is wrong as well.
Why does everything have to be put into one of these three little boxes?

Amen.... when we say "it has to be ____" or even "it has to be ___ or ____ or ____" we are probably wrong.

Alpha.Omega · Apr 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
My last name is Rank... it was a joke hence the laughing emoticon...

Yes, I did wonder! very good. :oldthumbsup:

hedrick · Apr 26, 2018

Part of the reason it's attractive is because Scripture typically speaks that way. It speaks of God reacting to what people do, and at times even changing his mind. There are theological arguments for why this can't mean what it looks like. But if you want to know why people think it, you don't have far to look.

Alpha.Omega · Apr 26, 2018

hedrick said:
Part of the reason it's attractive is because Scripture typically speaks that way. It speaks of God reacting to what people do, and at times even changing his mind. There are theological arguments for why this can't mean what it looks like. But if you want to know why people think it, you don't have far to look.

God never changes His mind

Ken Rank · Apr 26, 2018

Alpha.Omega said:
God never changes His mind

While I agree... you're going to learn that a blanket statement like that on that subject will do nothing but give you many hours of grief. There are verses that say, "God repented," which certainly indicates a change of mind. While I would argue that whatever it was went in the direction He knew it would to begin with... the presence of lines like that make it possible for others to take an opposing view. To argue it with them, if they are not seeking to see it your way, is a waste of time and a blood pressure raiser and for no reason.

danielmears · Apr 26, 2018

God sees the beginning and the end. Jesus speaks about his knowing God and God knowing him before the world was. The prophets also spoke of Jesus coming and what would occur, foretelling his crucifixion, and his rising from the grave after three days. Nothing which happens is a surprise to the Father, but that does not mean you do not have a choice or you are predestined to live or die. You need to believe in the Christ, he shows the way and that all things are possible with faith. Faith and love are the necessary factors to live the abundant life. Jesus speaks to us of faith over and over. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Jesus is the door, John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter i, he shall be saved, and he shall go in and out, and find pasture. We just have to have eyes to see and ears to hear, believing and doing. When we get the word in us we can ask and receive! Glory to God, how magnificent, what an incredible opportunity!

Philip_B · Apr 26, 2018

Alpha.Omega said:
God never changes His mind

Whilst I know that there are scriptures that make this kind of claim, there are also scriptures that present a very different view of God.

Genesis 6:6-7
And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, ‘I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.’

1 Samuel 15:11
‘I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me, and has not carried out my commands.’ Samuel was angry; and he cried out to the Lord all night.

Jonah 4:2
He prayed to the Lord and said, ‘O Lord! Is not this what I said while I was still in my own country? That is why I fled to Tarshish at the beginning; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and ready to relent from punishing.

2 Samuel 24:15-16
So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel from that morning until the appointed time; and seventy thousand of the people died, from Dan to Beer-sheba. But when the angel stretched out his hand towards Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented concerning the evil, and said to the angel who was bringing destruction among the people, ‘It is enough; now stay your hand.’ The angel of the Lord was then by the threshing-floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

Isaiah 38:1-5
In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, ‘Thus says the Lord: Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover.’Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall, and prayed to the Lord:‘Remember now, O Lord, I implore you, how I have walked before you in faithfulness with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight.’ And Hezekiah wept bitterly. Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: ‘Go and say to Hezekiah, Thus says the Lord, the God of your ancestor David: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life.

Now I am not a Sola-Scriptura person, however I do think that scripture is important. Given that we cannot know what God knows, in a sense we have to live with some sense that our lives mean something, our prayers mean something, and that God does act in human history. I found this short explanation of Open Theism.

Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future.

I am not advocating Open Theism, however I note that it does seem rather more gracious than a doctrine of double predestination. I think that God's foreknowledge is not foreshortened, however whilst he is beyond all time, God acts in time which is the incarnational reality that God loves his creation so much that he needs to be part of it.

Ken Rank · Apr 26, 2018

Philip_B said:
I am not advocating Open Theism, however I note that it does seem rather more gracious than a doctrine of double predestination. I think that God's foreknowledge is not foreshortened, however whilst he is beyond all time, God acts in time which is the incarnational reality that God love his creation so much that he needs to be part of it.

Well said.

Alpha.Omega · Apr 26, 2018

Philip_B said:
Whilst I know that there are scriptures that make this kind of claim, there are also scriptures that present a very different view of God.

Genesis 6:6-7
And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, ‘I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.’

1 Samuel 15:11
‘I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me, and has not carried out my commands.’ Samuel was angry; and he cried out to the Lord all night.

Jonah 4:2
He prayed to the Lord and said, ‘O Lord! Is not this what I said while I was still in my own country? That is why I fled to Tarshish at the beginning; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and ready to relent from punishing.

2 Samuel 24:15-16
So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel from that morning until the appointed time; and seventy thousand of the people died, from Dan to Beer-sheba. But when the angel stretched out his hand towards Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented concerning the evil, and said to the angel who was bringing destruction among the people, ‘It is enough; now stay your hand.’ The angel of the Lord was then by the threshing-floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

Isaiah 38:1-5
In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, ‘Thus says the Lord: Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover.’Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall, and prayed to the Lord:‘Remember now, O Lord, I implore you, how I have walked before you in faithfulness with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight.’ And Hezekiah wept bitterly. Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: ‘Go and say to Hezekiah, Thus says the Lord, the God of your ancestor David: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life.

Now I am not a Sola-Scriptura person, however I do think that scripture is important. Given that we cannot know what God knows, in a sense we have to live with some sense that our lives mean something, our prayers mean something, and that God does act in human history. I found this short explanation of Open Theism.

Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future.

I am not advocating Open Theism, however I note that it does seem rather more gracious than a doctrine of double predestination. I think that God's foreknowledge is not foreshortened, however whilst he is beyond all time, God acts in time which is the incarnational reality that God love his creation so much that he needs to be part of it.

The Scriptures are written for us humans using our very limited languages which cannot fully explain the infinite God of the Bible. Take for example Genesis 6 where we read God "repented", where the Hebrew is literally "to sigh or breathe heavily" because of our sins. A sign of God being grieved. All the examples you give can easily be explained

I find it interesting that most people appear to be Open Theists without even knowing it

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