SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

For the answer to your other question, see Romans 3:19 and think about what it means in context of Romans 3:10-18.

justbyfaith said:

I certainly don't have any problem with the idea that righteousness must be practical; in fact I often preach this biblical truth.. Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7.

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So is it, 'none are righteous, not one', or 'some are righteous'?

justbyfaith said:

For the answer to your other question, see Romans 3:19 and think about what it means in context of Romans 3:10-18.

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Did you know this was taken out of context? It's like me saying all are fools in their heart. Surely you believe in taking the context of what is said.

Psalm 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

There is none that doeth good of them who have said 'there is no God'.

EmSw said:

So is it, 'none are righteous, not one', or 'some are righteous'?

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None are righteous under the law; who have not yet been redeemed. Romans 5:19 interprets Romans 3:10 for us, and so does Romans 3:19 with Romans 6:14.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. Romans 3:10.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law but under grace. Romans 6:14.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE righteous. Romans 5:19.

EmSw said:

Did you know this was taken out of context? It's like me saying all are fools in their heart. Surely you believe in taking the context of what is said.

Psalm 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

There is none that doeth good of them who have said 'there is no God'.

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Matthew 2:15 takes Hosea 11:1 out of context also. Originally, when God said, I called my son out of Egypt, He was referring to Israel. But the Holy Spirit gave Matthew a prophetic application so that in the NT, God is referring to Jesus when He said, Out of Egypt I called my Son.

justbyfaith said:

None are righteous under the law; who have not yet been redeemed. Romans 5:19 interprets Romans 3:10 for us, and so does Romans 3:19 with Romans 6:14.

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I know the OT is not required reading for many Christians, but perhaps one should get to know what it says before taking a man's word for it. Here's a list of the righteous under the law -

2 Samuel 4:11
How much more, when wicked men have killed a righteous person in his own house on his bed? Therefore, shall I not now require his blood at your hand and remove you from the earth?

2 Samuel 22:21
The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands He has recompensed me.

2 Chronicles 6:23
...then hear from heaven, and act, and judge Your servants, bringing retribution on the wicked by bringing his way on his own head, and justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness.

Psalm 1:6
For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psalm 5:12
For You, O Lord, will bless the righteous; With favor You will surround him as with a shield.

Psalm 14:5
There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.

Isaiah 5:23
Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away justice from the righteous man!

Ezekiel 3:20
Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Ezekiel 21:3
and say to the land of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am against you, and I will draw My sword out of its sheath and cut off both righteous and wicked from you.

As you can see, there are plenty of times the righteous are mentioned in the OT. And this is just a partial list. Don't take any man's word indiscriminately; study for yourself.

justbyfaith said:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. Romans 3:10.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law but under grace. Romans 6:14.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE righteous. Romans 5:19.

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Isaiah 51:7
Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, you people in whose heart is My law: do not fear the reproach of men, Nor be afraid of their insults.

The law and righteousness go hand in hand.

I don' even know what to say about people being made sinners by Adam's disobedience. Who would make such a statement claiming they knew the OT? Ezekiel 18:20 shoots this statement to pieces.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

As I said, don't take another man's word, go, seek for yourself.

EmSw said:

Now you are in a bind.

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The only "bind" here is around your brain.

Either NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS, or SOME ARE RIGHTEOUS. You can't have it both ways.

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Those familiar with the Bible understand that no one is righteous on their own. But those who believe in Christ are credited with the righteousness of Christ. It's a point of positional truth. Those who believe in Christ are said to be IN HIM. That's positional. And we share in His righteousness.

But I'm not surprised at your comments and questions, that reveal how unfamiliar with biblical teaching you are.

I don't think Paul knew anything about Zacharias and Elizabeth.

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Your disdain and dismissal of Paul is your problem.

He didn't know they were righteous before God, or else he wouldn't have quoted Psalms out of context.

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It is clear that you have rejected Scripture: 2 Pet 1:20-21 -
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

and

2 Tim 3:16 - 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

EmSw said:

Just believe in Him. Isn't that all it takes? It doesn't matter if one keeps murdering, lying, blaspheming, fornicating, devil-worshipping, raping, or committing any other ungodly act, just believe in Him.

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The only way your "theology" works is by rejecting most of the NT.

justbyfaith said:

However, it says that if we walk according to the flesh we will not inherit the kingdom of God. So you are saying a believer might not inherit the kingdom.

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Yes, I am. But understand the phrase "not inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to another parallel verse, Eph 5:5 - For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Therefore, to "not inherit the kingdom" means "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

What it doesn't mean is "not enter the kingdom".

To have no inheritance speaks about loss of eternal rewards. Which is based on behavior.

Note: there is a difference beteen not inheriting the kingdom and having no inheritance IN the kingdom.

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Eph 5:5 refutes your opinion. The passage is parallel with 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5. It is the behavior that results in "having no inheritance in the kingdom" or "not inheriting the kingdom".

Consider 2 Tim 2:12, as also showing what "inheriting the kingdom" refers to.
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

Enduring is a behavior. If we endure, we will "reign with Christ". THAT is an inheritance.

Those believers who don't endure WON'T reign with Him. In fact, if we don't endure (we deny Him) He will deny us the right to reign with Him (inherit the kingdom).

This says nothing about not entering the kingdom.

If you don't inherit the kingdom itself, you don't enter in.

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This is an unsubstantiated opinion only.

Your view is different only because it is colored by a faulty interpretation of other scriptures.

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This is a weak argument. You have no support from any Scripture.

I said:
If this were actually true, then there would be no need for any commands for obedience, for holiness, etc. Yet, there are many such commands, all proving your claim to be in error.

Humans aren't robots, programmed to behave. It's always a choice.

lol. Seriously? Your opinions have refuted me? lol.

I agree that being born again DOES produce a new heart. But unless the believer is filled with the Spirit and walking by means of the Spirit, and has STOPPED grieving and quenching the Spirit, their behavior WON'T change. That's just naive.

I don't see it because it's just not there. As much as you opine that it is there.

justbyfaith said:

Oh it's THERE. And I'd bet that you're COUNTING ON the fact that most people don't look up scriptures when they are only referenced.

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Actually, I'm counting on people actually reading all the verses I cite and the surrounding context.

Your assumptions are quite in error.

Regarding John 10:28 -

justbyfaith said:

I sincerely doubt it, it is a departure from the text (Matthew 13:41-42).

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No, it's rejection of the obvious truth of John 10:28 that leads to a false understanding of Matt 13:41-42. That's all.

In fact, there's nothing in those 2 verses, or any surrounding context that says anything about losing salvation.

The OSNAS crowd MUST make huge assumptions in order to get to the idea of loss of salvation.

Whereas, John 10:28 is the most clear statement on eternal security in the Bible.

EmSw said:

I know the OT is not required reading for many Christians, but perhaps one should get to know what it says before taking a man's word for it.

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This is what Paul said -
Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 24:14 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

Acts 26:22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Yet, you've rejected the legitimacy of Paul, who preached from the OT.

The “theology” of EmSw denies any significance of Jesus’ death on a cross. I’ve asked him numerous times to explain why Jesus died on a cross, and he gives no answer.

Yet, the NT is full of references to His death on a cross, clearly central to the Christian faith.

These verses from the synoptic gospels prove the significance of His death on a cross:

Matt 26:28 - This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24 - “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.

Luke 22:20 - In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Luke 22:19 - And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

Acts 5:28 - “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”

Evidence that references to the blood of Christ refers to His crucifixion.

Then we have this:

Acts 20:28 - Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

So it’s very clear that His death on a cross is central to the gospel. He purchased the church.

Rom 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

Eph 1:7 - In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

Heb 13:12 - And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Rev 7:14 - I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

All of these verses prove the central significance of Christ’s death on a cross for our sins.

While not specifically mentioning the cross or the “blood”, John said this about His death on a cross:

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Water baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ in His death (on a cross), burial and resurrection.

Communion is a memorial of His death on a cross.

So, though Em Sw claims to be a Christian, there is nothing in his “theology” that is Christian.

His whole “gospel” is “if you want to enter life, keep the commandments”, which is what Jesus said to a rich young man.

The problem is his failure to understand what Jesus was really getting at; that the RYM WASN’T keeping the commands, not by a long shot.

Jesus said this about keeping the Law in Matt 22:36,37

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

Jesus then told him what he “lacked”. What was it that the rich man lacked? Keeping the FIRST and GREATEST of the commandments; to love the Lord your God with ALL your heart, and with ALL your soul and with ALL your mind.

What did the rich man love the MOST? His riches.

Matt 19:22 - When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

So, Jesus initial comment about entering life had nothing to do with how to get into heaven, but to show that regardless of much ELSE he was keeping the Law, he was failing to keep the FIRST and GREATEST commandment.

FreeGrace2 said:

This is what Paul said -
Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 24:14 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

Acts 26:22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Yet, you've rejected the legitimacy of Paul, who preached from the OT.

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I didn't ask you to provide any verse showing someone preached from the OT. I asked you to show us from OT passages how they had life. You haven't provided any yet. Why is that?

FreeGrace2 said:

Regarding John 10:28 -

No, it's rejection of the obvious truth of John 10:28 that leads to a false understanding of Matt 13:41-42. That's all.

In fact, there's nothing in those 2 verses, or any surrounding context that says anything about losing salvation.

The OSNAS crowd MUST make huge assumptions in order to get to the idea of loss of salvation.

Whereas, John 10:28 is the most clear statement on eternal security in the Bible.

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I'm not contending for loss of salvation; I'm saying that those who are current workers of iniquity weren't saved to begin with. Although I don't think that the whole of the Bible completely discounts the idea of loss of salvation. Therefore if someone is currently a worker of iniquity but think that they had salvation at one time, they are either deceiving themslves in thinking that or else they did have salvation but lost it--they died spiritually according to James 1:14-16.

EmSw said:

I didn't ask you to provide any verse showing someone preached from the OT. I asked you to show us from OT passages how they had life. You haven't provided any yet. Why is that?

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Just go ahead and deal with post #2135, the post immediately before yours.
In my previous post, I said:
"This is what Paul said -
Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

What "Scriptures" did the Berean's have in which to examine to "see if what Paul said was true"? Obviously, the OT is all.

So, from the OT Scriptures, Paul taught that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead.

Gee, there's that death thingy again. The Messiah HAD TO DIE before He could rise from the dead. Oh well, there goes your theory.

I suppose you see no connection with Psa 22 and Isa 53 with what Jesus experienced on the cross. But it's there. The cross FULFILLED OT prophecy.

Your "demand" to see OT verses that specifically mention the "cross" is hilarious. All the OT people needed to believe is that the Messiah would suffer for their sins, and die for them and rise again. Exactly what Jesus did.

Have you been water baptized and do you partake of communion?

And spiritual death, in James 1:14-16, might even be the exception to the rule of eternal security found in John 10:28; as the latter doesn't include the concept of exemption from spiritual death as a reason why someone cannot lose their salvation.

edit-->I take that back. It says, I give them ETERNAL LIFE. So then, in comparing this to James 1:14-16, I would conclude that those who are truly Jesus' sheep will never allow any sin to become fully grown so that it would produce spiritual death; as the sealing of the Holy Ghost would give them restraint so that they would never cross over the line over into spiritual death; for those who are TRULY SAVED.

justbyfaith said:

I'm not contending for loss of salvation; I'm saying that those who are current workers of iniquity weren't saved to begin with.

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Of course they weren't. They were basing entrance into heaven on what they have done for Christ, by performing miracles in His Name. No dice. Didn't work out for them.

Although I don't think that the whole of the Bible completely discounts th idea of loss of salvation.

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I cannot imagine how anyone who professes to be a believer in Christ can say that, given what Jesus taught about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

Jesus is the CAUSE of having eternal life. "I give them eternal life".
Never perishing is the EFFECT of having eternal life. "and they shall never perish".

It couldn't be more straightforward.

btw, how can one who has (possesses eternal life) salvation, later "die spiritually"? That's basically saying that ETERNAL life can die. How is that possible?

Words mean things. But you're mangling the very meaning of "eternal" just to suit your own opinion.

Those who have eternal life CANNOT DIE spiritually.

Hasn't it occurred to you that IF even one saved person ended up perishing, that would mean what Jesus said in John 10:28 was NOT TRUE??

And who said "I AM the WAY, the TRUTH, and the WAY. No one comes to the Father except through Me."?

If Jesus is THE TRUTH, then what He said in John 10:28 cannot be untrue.

That means NO saved person can ever perish. That would be the exact opposite of what He promised.

Therefore if someone is currently a worker of iniquity but think that they had salvation at one time, they are either deceiving themslves in thinking that or else they did have salvation but lost it--they died spiritually according to James 1:14-16.

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Sure. Lots of people think they have salvation. Jesus made that point to the Pharisees in John 5:39 - You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

Kinda like Em Sw, who thinks that he has eternal life because he "keeps the commandments", and uses that one verse totally out of context to support his works based system of salvation.

However, once a person HAS salvation (eternal life), Jesus said they shall never perish.

I guess you're not convinced yet. And I cannot imagine why not.

John 10:28 is as clear as can be stated. And there are NO verses that state clearly that salvation can be lost.

Since the Bible is inerrant, it cannot teach 2 opposite ideas. And there is at least 1 very clearly stated verse on eternal security.

So there's absolutely no reason at all to believe that salvation can be lost.