Why do People Fight so hard for Their Own Free Will ?
- Thread starter John tower
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
Does Jesus tell others to "love your enemies"?
if he told us to do so, does he also do this? Yes he does.
God's love is toward them and he does good to the evil and the just and His love is demonstrated in that he gave His Son Jesus Christ for the sin of the whole world God so loved the world that he gave.... But His love is only in the believers (Romans 5). The unbelievers have the wrath of God on them.
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Micah888
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Also the term "total depravity" is inaccurate and highly misleading. Those who hold to it TOTALLY IGNORE the fact that God has given every human being a conscience, and the conscience works as the Law (the Ten Commandments) within the unsaved. See Romans 2.
Furthermore, "total depravity" ignores the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit to bring spiritually dead sinners to repentance. See Acts 2.
Romans 9 can easily be explained without putting any spin on it.
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Correct.
IF you want to be Biblical about it.
The "sinners" are those whose names are in the book of life of the lamb slain and refer ALWAYS to Covenant. Covenant sinners throughout all time - past, present, and future.
All God is now doing is preparing bodies to go with those names. THAT'S WHO Jesus Christ died for.
A specific group of men. God is a respecter of persons. Ask Cain.
Jesus as High Priest is about to go to sacrifice Himself to God the Father. The time to pray for anyone as directed in the OT Law is right before the altar. Jesus doesn't pray for the world of sinners, but He does pray for "THEM." Who are "them?"
John 17:9 (KJV)
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Do you know what a personal pronoun is?
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MDC
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The death and resurrection of Christ conquered sin, death and satan. And all believers (elect) in Christ have the victory as well. Being that we, the elect in Christ, have died in Him and was raised with Him. Those who parish cannot say this. And is why they suffer for their sin in judgement and will be cast into the lake of fire, along with death, hades and satan at the consummation of all things. Universal atonement advocates, like yourself, deny Christ’s efficacious atoning work and the power of His resurrection. It is why you believe His work didn’t save those in hell. So how can you say you believe Christ and His atoning work saves you?
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He's NEVER hated me - nor anyone named in the book of life of the lamb slain (Rev. 13:8), for it was the reason why He came and died so I may live.
If God loves you, He will save you. If God doesn't love you He will not save you.
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MDC
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Your objection is exactly what Paul anticipates, For who has resisted His will? O man, who are you to reply against God? Romans 9:19-20. Because God has made it such by His Sovereign decrees and purpose, you reply then, who has resisted His will! If God made me as such why does He yet still find fault? vs.19. So now you are here trying to justify mans autonomy (sovereignty) like a deist. Just because you find that if God’s Sovereignly decreed all that comes to pass, he made you do it! Lol no, you did it and will be held accountable for it. We are nothing but clay in the Potters hands
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God has all power and authority, I said that.
God has chosen to give us the ability to choose. That's what love does. God doesn't say, "you WILL do this", he says, "these are the choices; this one is my will for you" and leaves it to us.
He would like us to do his will because we love him, want to serve and please him and believe he knows what is best, but he won't force us.
Otherwise he would have created Adam as a robot; incapable of making the wrong choice, programmed only to obey and do right.
I don't believe man is sovereign, so why would I try to prove it?
Humanists believe that man is the highest power in the universe; I'm a Christian.
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Your explaination doesn't really cover how Jesus could have won a complete victory over satan and yet the victory didn't set all men free from satan. If Jesus didn't die for all men then satan still has the power over many people and then Christ has no power to set them free, even if he wanted he couldn't. What a Messiah is that?
I don't agree with you since Christ accomplished exactly what he indended to do, to break the chains satan had over mankind, so that everyone who receives the freedom Christ has won for him will indeed be free. Paul says:
"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. "
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Silly Uncle Wayne
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But God is not ‘in control’ of everything. He is sovereign of everything and they are two very different things.
Your controlling God is abusive and deceitful. He abused the whole world by controlling the serpent and Eve and Adam. He then deceives everyone into think that they can be saved by faith... when he is the one handing out that faith.
My God on the other hand tells us his commands and expects us to fulfill them (just like a king). His purposes are fulfilled by the actions of people like me trying our best to achieve them. And if I fail there are millions of others who will pick up the slack.
I suggest you take a look at what God says about sovereigns in the scriptures and apply it to God.
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Silly Uncle Wayne
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Not if God is in control! God is controlling him and making him avoid thinking about it.
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Proverbs 3(7), Isaiah 55(8&9), 1 Cor 13: For now we see through a glass darkly, for now we know on part , Prov 3(5): Rom 8(28): God has a great master plan that you don't understand : All things are part of this plan : Don't make the mistake when you don't understand something and attack God and say he didn't do it or create it : your stepping onto dangerous ground !
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The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
(Isaiah 45:7 NASB)
The word translated calamity is often translated as evil, but it also means calamity. God is not the author of moral evil, although He may judge us for our evil and the resulting calamity may seem evil to us.
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—
(Genesis 3:22 NASB)
Knowing good and evil does not make one evil... doing evil makes one evil.
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
(Romans 8:28 NASB)
God is ultimately in control of history, no one is denying that fact. No matter what evil befalls us in this fallen world, if we love and trust God, He will use it to bring about our ultimate good (which is found in verse 29: our conformity to the image of Christ).
(Romans 9:11-22 NASB)
(11) for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
God chose Jacob according to His foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:1-2).
(12) it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." (13) Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Again, all based upon God's foreknowledge. BTW: Verse 13 is quoting Malachi 1:2-3, which was written hundreds of years after their life.
(14) What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
There is no injustice with God! God is not the author of moral evil!
(15) For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." (16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Note in verse 16 that a man does will things... but God's election is not dependent upon our willpower, our ability to earn it by good works, but upon God who shows mercy in Jesus Christ our Lord. Apart from Christ, no one would be saved!
(17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." (18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
God has the authority and ability to do this if He chooses... He is God! Also note that in Exodus Pharaoh first hardened his own heart, and then God confirmed his will by hardening his heart in opposition to Him.
(19) You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" (20) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Indeed. God has both the ability and the moral authority (because He is good and knows all things) to do this if he so chooses. But this is not the default way that God deals with man on an everyday basis.
(21) Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? (22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
God creates all mankind, and even as He creates them He knows what they will become. God, in His foreknowledge, sees what each vessel will become, and treats each vessel accordingly in the judgment.
I see nothing here that changes my position.
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Same MO : take verses and then wrest them : Attack God's word and replace it with doctrines of men , reasonings of men : I'm happy it's not me doing this!
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Yeah, I see how this goes... I post my understanding, and it's the doctrine of men wresting the Scriptures to suit their own purposes. You have your understanding, and it's God's holy truth, right? Beware of spiritual pride, brother...
In my mind, what this debate boils down to is simple: what do you deem more important; the absolute sovereignty of God or the character of God. I choose His character every time, because the God I worship is first and foremost good, holy, righteous, loving, and just. He is omnipotent and sovereign over all, but not to the extent that He controls my every thought and action... He has the power to do so, but in love has chosen to limit His control and give us the ability to choose. This is a precious gift, because without choice their can be no real love. I am not a pull string doll, and neither are you, John. God wants people, not automatons, to worship and serve Him.
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