Why do People Fight so hard for Their Own Free Will ?

Micah888

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The problem with your reasoning is that you believe, as all free willers do, that man in his unregenerate state and dead in his sin, can will himself to believe in Christ and know the things of God and spiritual good. This is absolutely false.
And you simply ignored the post which showed that it is the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit which brings the unregenerate to salvation. So the idea of "can will himself" is a straw man.

The fact of the matter is that if Calvinists would genuinely recognize the power of the Gospel (which is the power o God) and the power of the Holy Spirit (which is also the power of God), they would have to abandon their false notion about man's "inability" to respond the Gospel. They just ignore what Paul said in Romans 1:16.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Sinners are not regenerated before they believe, but only after they repent and are converted (Acts 2:38).
 
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John tower

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And you simply ignored the post which showed that it is the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit which brings the unregenerate to salvation. So the idea of "can will himself" is a straw man.

The fact of the matter is that if Calvinists would genuinely recognize the power of the Gospel (which is the power o God) and the power of the Holy Spirit (which is also the power of God), they would have to abandon their false notion about man's "inability" to respond the Gospel. They just ignore what Paul said in Romans 1:16.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Sinners are not regenerated before they believe, but only after they repent and are converted (Acts 2:38).
Ephesians : You being dead hath HE quickened ! A dead person cannot make a free will choice to come to God : Because he is dead : Duh! Dead people can do nothing because they are dead ! It is totally and solely the work to bring people unto him : Psalms 66(5): Blessed is the man whom THOU CHOOSETH and CAUSETH to approach unto thee ! John 6(44): No man can come to me except THE FATHER DRAW HIM : It's all God : not OUR WORK : Stop exalting man !
 
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John tower

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And you simply ignored the post which showed that it is the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit which brings the unregenerate to salvation. So the idea of "can will himself" is a straw man.

The fact of the matter is that if Calvinists would genuinely recognize the power of the Gospel (which is the power o God) and the power of the Holy Spirit (which is also the power of God), they would have to abandon their false notion about man's "inability" to respond the Gospel. They just ignore what Paul said in Romans 1:16.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Sinners are not regenerated before they believe, but only after they repent and are converted (Acts 2:38).
Totally and absolutely false : Eph You being dead hath he quickened : A dead man cannot believe first because he is dead , DUH!, Dead people can do nothing because they are dead : Psalms 66(5): stop attacking God by trying to put this power of God into man's hands : Stop exalting man !
 
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zoidar

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Why does the bible say in Heb 12(6): for WHOM the lord loves !

"FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." /Heb 12:6

If you are a father of a family and one of your children leave you and live in crime. You still love him, don't you? But by the way he is living you can't give him that love, because he has separated himself from your love. You can no longer "love" him and disciplin him, because he doesn't listen to you.

He scourges every son he RECEIVES. So everyone who repent and turn to Christ, the Lord receives, loves and disciplines. It's not that he didn't love them before, it's just that they were "separated" from his love.
 
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John tower

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"FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." /Heb 12:6

If you are a father of a family and one of your children leave you and live in crime. You still love him, don't you? But by the way he is living you can't give him that love, because he has separated himself from your love. You can no longer "love" him and disciplin him, because he doesn't listen to you.

He scourges every son he RECEIVES. So everyone who repent and turn to Christ, the Lord receives, loves and disciplines. It's not that he didn't love them before, it's just that they were "separated" from his love.
Just listen to the verse , not your own endless reasonings : It clearly says for WHOM the Lord loves meaning not everybody : WHOM!
 
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Strong in Him

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Just listen to the verse , not your own endless reasonings : It clearly says for WHOM the Lord loves meaning not everybody : WHOM!

Those whom the Lord loves, he disciplines - yes.
He loves everyone and disciplines all of us sooner or later - in this life, for those that will recognise and submit to him; after death for those who won't.
 
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zoidar

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Just listen to the verse , not your own endless reasonings : It clearly says for WHOM the Lord loves meaning not everybody : WHOM!

One thing that has been more and more clear to me is that you can't read the bible as "car-manual". It's not written in that way. I myself have been thinking and thinking, trying to figure out what some bible verses mean, and never did I fully come to the right conclusion. Why because the way I was reading the bible was wrong. I read it with the human mind, trying to figure it out (of course that still happens).

The spiritual message in the scripture is understood through the work of the Holy Spirit, and you open up your heart to the Spirit, when you read without having preconceived ideas about what it is to say. Often the meaning of some texts just dawn on you when you do somethings else. Like when you are on the train, or taking a walk. Suddenly it's just an "aha-moment".
 
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Micah888

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Why does the bible say in Heb 12(6): for WHOM the lord loves !
That is a clearly reference to the children of God. How relevant is it in this thread?

1. The Bible tells us that God loves the whole world of humanity as His creation -- made in the image of God.

2. The Bible also tells us that God loves His children as a Father.

There's no conflict here since God is LOVE.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Hebrews 12(6): For WHOM the Lord loves ! If he loved everyone it wouldn't say whom !

try to read it all John its not that long.


Gods love is towards all men, but His love is only in believers as scripture says and God is love so His very nature is love and when he deals with anyone he responds according to His nature. He offers love to all mankind in Christ God so loved the world that he gave...

"6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."(Romans 5:6-8 KJV)

1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him."


John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


Though God's love is towards all men His love is only upon or in believers as scripture says

Romans 5:5

:And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

and Jesus tells men to love their enemies. if he tells us to do this then he also does this as scripture shows,


"27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,...
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil."(Luke 6:27,32-35 KJV)

This shows the attitude that Jesus and we are to have to our enemies. To LOVE them. That does not mean that they are not our enemies still, they are and they are lost and many Hate God. But we still show love and do good to them and be kind and patient, hoping for them to turn unto God.

Jesus tells us to love our enemies, obviously he also does.

the confusion is that the lost do not have Gods love upon them or in them. Only the saints do. God's wrath is upon them but His love is offered in Christ and towards them. As scripture teaches

John 3:36

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."


but believers have a different reception from God and the Love of God is more fully shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost Romans 5.


To love God and our neighbour fulfills the law and our neighbour is anyone who comes in our path and those near us as well, even the lost.

Mark 12:33
"And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."


Romans 13:10
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


but only believers abide in God's love. The lost do not have this love in them or walk in this

John 15:10
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."


1 John 2:5
"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
 
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zoidar

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Just listen to the verse , not your own endless reasonings : It clearly says for WHOM the Lord loves meaning not everybody : WHOM!

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." /Joh 15:10


This is exactly what I was saying. If you follow Jesus (keep his commandments) then his love is in you. If you don't follow Jesus, he still loves you, but his love is not within you.
 
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food4thought

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I really don't understand the mindset of those who continually fight for their own Free Will! Is there something wrong with God being in absolute control of all things , including ourselves? Is there something wrong with being just clay in God's hands?

My issue with God being sovereign in the absolute sense, meaning that we do not have the capacity to make our own decisions (God IS sovereign over the universe and holds all things together by His will), is that it makes hell a terrible injustice. If we are simply clay in His hands with no part in our destiny, then how is God just to condemn us to hell for what He made us do (or prevented us from doing by withholding His grace)? Mankind is responsible before Him precisely because we have the capacity to choose good and evil. If, as the Calvinist says, humanity is incapable of even receiving the truth (total depravity), and God's grace is irresistible (irresistible grace), this means that God deliberately withholds the grace necessary for someone to be saved, and then condemns them to eternal hell for not doing what God withheld them from being able to do. That "god" is neither good, just, merciful, nor loving!

If, on the other hand, humanity has the capacity to choose (note I carefully do not say free will, because libertarian free will is a myth, and I don't want to be misunderstood), and we can receive salvation without God's irresistible grace (note I said irresistible grace, as the Bible makes it clear that we can only receive it thru His grace), and God makes this grace available to all who hear the gospel, but we must make a response of our own tattered will to accept it, then God IS just in condemning the unrepentant rejecters of God's grace to eternal hell. It is a fine point doctrinally, but it makes all the difference in the world as to the character of God.

Hope this helps clarify why I lean towards the Arminian view, as opposed to the strict Calvinist view;
Michael
 
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LoveofTruth

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My issue with God being sovereign in the absolute sense, meaning that we do not have the capacity to make our own decisions (God IS sovereign over the universe and holds all things together by His will), is that it makes hell a terrible injustice. If we are simply clay in His hands with no part in our destiny, then how is God just to condemn us to hell for what He made us do (or prevented us from doing by withholding His grace)? Mankind is responsible before Him precisely because we have the capacity to choose good and evil. If, as the Calvinist says, humanity is incapable of even receiving the truth (total depravity), and God's grace is irresistible (irresistible grace), this means that God deliberately withholds the grace necessary for someone to be saved, and then condemns them to eternal hell for not doing what God withheld them from being able to do. That "god" is neither good, just, merciful, nor loving!

If, on the other hand, humanity has the capacity to choose (note I carefully do not say free will, because libertarian free will is a myth, and I don't want to be misunderstood), and we can receive salvation without God's irresistible grace (note I said irresistible grace, as the Bible makes it clear that we can only receive it thru His grace), and God makes this grace available to all who hear the gospel, but we must make a response of our own tattered will to accept it, then God IS just in condemning the unrepentant rejecters of God's grace to eternal hell. It is a fine point doctrinally, but it makes all the difference in the world as to the character of God.

Hope this helps clarify why I lean towards the Arminian view, as opposed to the strict Calvinist view;
Michael
And here is a good verse against the Calvinist that say none can resist his will

Acts 7 - 51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. “

And

Romans 13 - 2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.”
 
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MDC

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Who said anything about people willing themselves to believe?
Jesus said to his disciples "come to me ......", Matthew 11:28 - he invites us.
Romans says that "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus." Gifts are given and need to be received.

We can come to Jesus, choose to go to a church and hear the Gospel, or whatever. It is the Spirit who witnesses to us that the word we hear is correct and quickens our spirits so that we may believe - we still have the choice whether to say "yes" to God. Some may not, immediately.
Some may be too scared of what their friends/family will say - like the man who said he would follow Jesus but wanted to say goodbye to his family first, Luke 9:61.
Some may believe and happily receive Jesus but not get good teaching afterwards, so that when things go wrong, they lose faith and believe God doesn't love them any more - Jesus warned people about starting to follow him then giving up because the cost was too high, and said that only a few would find the narrow way.
Some may want to say "yes" to Jesus, but find that other things are more appealing, or important - like the rich young ruler who was told to give up everything he had.
All of these people are described also in the parable of the sower. It's about how people hear and receive the word; not that God sits in heaven saying "you will believe, but I've chosen you to go to hell."



?? We believe because God COMMANDS us to believe?



There IS something good in man - we are made by, and in the image of, a loving, compassionate, merciful God, how can there be NO good in us? This is one of the problems non Christians may have. They see people who do an enormous amount of good, and may do a lot of good themselves; found/work for charities, give to the poor/homeless etc and believe that these good deeds ALONE are enough to atone for their sin, without coming to Christ. But they aren't - we can do all the good we like, but will never be able to save ourselves.



God has power, sovereignty and authority over everything - that doesn't mean he controls and micro manages us. He can choose, and gave us that gift and ability also.



That sounds like a judgement to me.
You keep quoting Romans 9 - you realise that this chapter, as well as 10 and 11, are about the Jews, whether or not they are still God's chosen, whether people need to stop being Jews or what point there was in being one at all? Paul is addressing a certain issue here; maybe answering a question he had been asked.



Sounds like another judgment - some Christians don't understand a certain Scripture so they "explain it away".
I gave you many Scriptures about the nature and character of God, and you simply ignored them - or is that somehow ok?



Another judgement.
You seem utterly convinced that your own interpretation of Scripture - or at least, one chapter of one book - is correct, and are condemning those who disagree with you as elevating themselves above God.
Make sure you're not doing the same.
This is where the problem lies. By you not seeing your utter depravity, gives evidence of why you hold to these beliefs and deny Gods Sovereignty. Romans 9 is the perfect example simply because you free willers are making the very objections Paul anticipates.
 
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food4thought

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And here is a good verse against the Calvinist that say none can resist his will

Acts 7 - 51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. “

I was aware of this verse, but thank you for reminding me!

And

Romans 13 - 2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.”

I hadn't thought of this verse in that context... can't make as strong a case from this one, but it could be helpful.

Thanks!
Michael
 
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MDC

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Yes.
God didn't CHOOSE Esau, he chose Jacob. And to Jews, at that time anyway, if God didn't choose someone, it was because he hated them; chosen = loved, not chosen = hated.
It's the same for some people today - "God doesn't love me, he didn't let me ......"; "God doesn't love me, I can't do .....".
Is that what scripture says?? Or is this just one of your emotional opinions?
 
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LoveofTruth

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I was aware of this verse, but thank you for reminding me!



I hadn't thought of this verse in that context... can't make as strong a case from this one, but it could be helpful.

Thanks!
Michael
Another one

2 Timothy 3 - 8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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This is where the problem lies. By you not seeing your utter depravity, gives evidence of why you hold to these beliefs and deny Gods Sovereignty. Romans 9 is the perfect example simply because you free willers are making the very objections Paul anticipates.
No Romans 9 has to do with God’s choice of the messianic line according to election and coming to him by faith and through his mercy or by works and the law

Read near the end of the chapter and the summation of it

Romans 9 - 30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.
 
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MDC

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And you simply ignored the post which showed that it is the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit which brings the unregenerate to salvation. So the idea of "can will himself" is a straw man.

The fact of the matter is that if Calvinists would genuinely recognize the power of the Gospel (which is the power o God) and the power of the Holy Spirit (which is also the power of God), they would have to abandon their false notion about man's "inability" to respond the Gospel. They just ignore what Paul said in Romans 1:16.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Sinners are not regenerated before they believe, but only after they repent and are converted (Acts 2:38).
The problem is you don’t believe it is Gods power by His Spirit and Word that quickens. If you did then you wouldn’t disagree with election. If man must be quickened and made alive by this power to believe, then it should be obvious to you only a select few upon hearing the gospel come to faith. But you will explain this away with free will. So your whole point is that the determining factor isn’t Gods power, but mans choice or free will decision. Which by the way doesn’t equate to faith at all. So you are contradicting yourself
 
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