Why do People Fight so hard for Their Own Free Will ?

Philip_B

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and if not your still saved by only believing and having faith in him
We do not save ourselves. Humankind has no capacity of itself to pull itself up by its own bootlaces.

We are saved by Jesus, and his atoning sacrifice made once for all upon the cross.

We are invited to accept that gift. How we live in response to that gift is the substance of what the Christian life is all about. However at no point have we achieved anything. We have accepted the gift.

I do not believe that we are predestined - and especially I do not believe that God has predestined people to the eternal fires of hell.

I believe that God is Just, and that we will judged according to our response to the light that we have been shown. How that works for people who have never heard the name of Jesus, I do not know, but I am certain that it will not be unjust.
 
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Neogaia777

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We do not save ourselves. Humankind has no capacity of itself to pull itself up by its own bootlaces.

We are saved by Jesus, and his atoning sacrifice made once for all upon the cross.

We are invited to accept that gift. How we live in response to that gift is the substance of what the Christian life is all about. However at no point have we achieved anything. We have accepted the gift.

I do not believe that we are predestined - and especially I do not believe that God has predestined people to the eternal fires of hell.

I believe that God is Just, and that we will judged according to our response to the light that we have been shown. How that works for people who have never heard the name of Jesus, I do not know, but I am certain that it will not be unjust.
This is going in circles, and I'm not even doing this for me anyway, but for you guys...?

Saying that "all" is our "own free will" comes with just as many problems as saying "all" is "predestined and predetermined" by God...? Are you guys so blind that you cannot see that...?

I was just trying to show you guys that the real truth is somewhere in between, which I tried my best to explain, but...?

And I had thought we'd settled this/that already, and just saw you guys still debating between one extreme and the other, and thought I would try to "help" but...?

I'll end with this that I already said "God is "in control" of everything, but he does not (have to) "control" everything (to do that)."

You guys need to review this thread... Most all of your questions and points have been answered and/or addressed already, and I do tire of repeating myself, especially when I seem to be getting nowhere and and I'm doing it for you and there is really nothing in it for me, so...?

Peace out,

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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We do not save ourselves. Humankind has no capacity of itself to pull itself up by its own bootlaces.

We are saved by Jesus, and his atoning sacrifice made once for all upon the cross.

We are invited to accept that gift. How we live in response to that gift is the substance of what the Christian life is all about. However at no point have we achieved anything. We have accepted the gift.

I do not believe that we are predestined - and especially I do not believe that God has predestined people to the eternal fires of hell.

I believe that God is Just, and that we will judged according to our response to the light that we have been shown. How that works for people who have never heard the name of Jesus, I do not know, but I am certain that it will not be unjust.
If we choose then "our faith" has made us (well, whole) or has saved us, just like Jesus would say... Or does God only offer "some" the gift and not others... Cause if he offers it to all, but it is dependent on us, then... "Our faith" has done (this or that) and not God's...

There is nothing wrong with that, only if, only if, we do not know about it, or cannot be sure (for certain) of it, (in this life) which is why this cannot be answered in the way that either of you would like, (that is)...

Cause I have to speak in generalities and not specifics, cause of our lack of ability to know (which is which, and what is what, and who is who, for certain), which is kinda what you guys (I think) are trying to "push" me into answering, when I simply cannot, cause that is in God's knowledge and knowing alone...?

But, I did my best to explain that as well...

Peace,

God Bless!
 
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BNR32FAN

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So you believe everyone deserves a chance to be saved? And if not is God unjust and unfair? So what of all the heathen nations outside Israel before Christ. Do all those heathen deserve a chance too? And what about those who have never heard of Christ throughout the centuries? Is God just to condemn every soul according to you?

I never said anyone deserved a chance for salvation. Do you believe those God chose deserve their salvation? No one derserves salvation. I’m saying God loves everyone and He gives everyone a chance to be saved. You see my beliefs coincide with ALL the scriptures and doesn’t contradict any of them. Your belief suggests God doesn’t love everyone in the world. That He only chooses a select few and the rest He condemns to the lake of fire never having any chance for salvation. God loves everyone even the worst sinner in the world. That person seals his own fate by his own choice. God is not responsible for him burning in the lake of fire because God made a way for him to be saved.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I don't think Rom 9 proves that! Though I do agree that people are chosen for different purposes. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not the same to everyone. Not everyone will meet Jesus like Paul did.

"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”

God could have killed the pharao as a child, but He didn't. He raised him up instead, even he knew about his dark heart. Then he used the wickedness of the pharao to demonstrate his power. Whose fault was the wickedness of the Pharao? Was it God who made him evil? Of course not.

Yes pharaoh was chosen for that specific purpose. So that God’s power and glory would be shown to the world.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So you believe everyone deserves a chance to be saved? And if not is God unjust and unfair? So what of all the heathen nations outside Israel before Christ. Do all those heathen deserve a chance too? And what about those who have never heard of Christ throughout the centuries? Is God just to condemn every soul according to you?

As for people who never heard of Jesus I don’t know. I’m not sure that is addressed in the scriptures.
 
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MDC

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I never said anyone deserved a chance for salvation. Do you believe those God chose deserve their salvation? No one derserves salvation. I’m saying God loves everyone and He gives everyone a chance to be saved. You see my beliefs coincide with ALL the scriptures and doesn’t contradict any of them. Your belief suggests God doesn’t love everyone in the world. That He only chooses a select few and the rest He condemns to the lake of fire never having any chance for salvation. God loves everyone even the worst sinner in the world. That person seals his own fate by his own choice. God is not responsible for him burning in the lake of fire because God made a way for him to be saved.
Nope those for whom Christ died and God chose to save definitely do not deserve mercy and salvation. So you seem to be insinuating that since God chose to save some and show mercy to them, that those for whom He didn’t, had no chance. Who deserves a chance? By saying man deserves a chance is saying man is deserving of mercy somehow. So what is it? Are we or aren’t we deserving? You’re contradicting yourself. The point isn’t whether Christ prevents anyone from coming. The point is that NO sinner will come to Christ apart from God drawing them. Mans sinful nature prevents this from happening. You don’t believe this because you feel like mans capable of resting in Christ by some decision he makes. You don’t believe man is dead in sin and in need of Christ and His mercy because you believe man, in himself, can change his nature and rest in Christ. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit via regeneration. Man is born condemned and guilty and enslaved to sin. So therefore man is responsible. The fact that God chooses not to save all in Christ doesn’t take the responsibility away from man. Only those who believe man is deserving of salvation by having a chance to earn Gods favor believe this.. like you free willers
 
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BNR32FAN

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Nope those for whom Christ died and God chose to save definitely do not deserve mercy and salvation. So you seem to be insinuating that since God chose to save some and show mercy to them, that those for whom He didn’t, had no chance. Who deserves a chance? By saying man deserves a chance is saying man is deserving of mercy somehow. So what is it? Are we or aren’t we deserving? You’re contradicting yourself. The point isn’t whether Christ prevents anyone from coming. The point is that NO sinner will come to Christ apart from God drawing them. Mans sinful nature prevents this from happening. You don’t believe this because you feel like mans capable of resting in Christ by some decision he makes. You don’t believe man is dead in sin and in need of Christ and His mercy because you believe man, in himself, can change his nature and rest in Christ. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit via regeneration. Man is born condemned and guilty and enslaved to sin. So therefore man is responsible. The fact that God chooses not to save all in Christ doesn’t take the responsibility away from man. Only those who believe man is deserving of salvation by having a chance to earn Gods favor believe this.. like you free willers

Yet your idea still contradicts God’s Love for the world. STOP DODGING THIS REALITY. DOES GOD LOVE THE WORLD? JOHN 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON AND WHOSOEVER THAT BELIEVETH IN HIM WILL NEVER PARISH AND HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. NOT WHOSOEVER GOD CHOOSES TO BELIEVE. SO ANSWER THE QUESTION.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Nope those for whom Christ died and God chose to save definitely do not deserve mercy and salvation. So you seem to be insinuating that since God chose to save some and show mercy to them, that those for whom He didn’t, had no chance. Who deserves a chance? By saying man deserves a chance is saying man is deserving of mercy somehow. So what is it? Are we or aren’t we deserving? You’re contradicting yourself. The point isn’t whether Christ prevents anyone from coming. The point is that NO sinner will come to Christ apart from God drawing them. Mans sinful nature prevents this from happening. You don’t believe this because you feel like mans capable of resting in Christ by some decision he makes. You don’t believe man is dead in sin and in need of Christ and His mercy because you believe man, in himself, can change his nature and rest in Christ. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit via regeneration. Man is born condemned and guilty and enslaved to sin. So therefore man is responsible. The fact that God chooses not to save all in Christ doesn’t take the responsibility away from man. Only those who believe man is deserving of salvation by having a chance to earn Gods favor believe this.. like you free willers

“But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation. For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son. So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:8-11‬
 
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MDC

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Yet your idea still contradicts God’s Love for the world. STOP DODGING THIS REALITY. DOES GOD LOVE THE WORLD? JOHN 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON AND WHOSOEVER THAT BELIEVETH IN HIM WILL NEVER PARISH AND HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. NOT WHOSOEVER GOD CHOOSES TO BELIEVE. SO ANSWER THE QUESTION.
Did God love Essau? World doesn’t mean head for head every human to ever live. Means both Jew and gentile. Remember Gods blessings and grace was primarily bestowed upon the nation of Israel. Like I said before, Gods commanding DOES NOT equate to mans ability. Is man able to obey God’s law? Even though God commands that we do? If not done in faith, then it is sin
 
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Strong in Him

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The problem with your reasoning is that you believe, as all free willers do, that man in his unregenerate state and dead in his sin, can will himself to believe in Christ

Who said anything about people willing themselves to believe?
Jesus said to his disciples "come to me ......", Matthew 11:28 - he invites us.
Romans says that "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus." Gifts are given and need to be received.

We can come to Jesus, choose to go to a church and hear the Gospel, or whatever. It is the Spirit who witnesses to us that the word we hear is correct and quickens our spirits so that we may believe - we still have the choice whether to say "yes" to God. Some may not, immediately.
Some may be too scared of what their friends/family will say - like the man who said he would follow Jesus but wanted to say goodbye to his family first, Luke 9:61.
Some may believe and happily receive Jesus but not get good teaching afterwards, so that when things go wrong, they lose faith and believe God doesn't love them any more - Jesus warned people about starting to follow him then giving up because the cost was too high, and said that only a few would find the narrow way.
Some may want to say "yes" to Jesus, but find that other things are more appealing, or important - like the rich young ruler who was told to give up everything he had.
All of these people are described also in the parable of the sower. It's about how people hear and receive the word; not that God sits in heaven saying "you will believe, but I've chosen you to go to hell."

And as free willers you believe simply because God commands,

?? We believe because God COMMANDS us to believe?

And why he rejected original sin and believed there is something good in man.

There IS something good in man - we are made by, and in the image of, a loving, compassionate, merciful God, how can there be NO good in us? This is one of the problems non Christians may have. They see people who do an enormous amount of good, and may do a lot of good themselves; found/work for charities, give to the poor/homeless etc and believe that these good deeds ALONE are enough to atone for their sin, without coming to Christ. But they aren't - we can do all the good we like, but will never be able to save ourselves.

So your whole foundation is faulty and why you reject Gods Sovereignty.

God has power, sovereignty and authority over everything - that doesn't mean he controls and micro manages us. He can choose, and gave us that gift and ability also.

The common sinful and arrogant response and objection that is repeatedly brought up by most of you free willers on here

That sounds like a judgement to me.
You keep quoting Romans 9 - you realise that this chapter, as well as 10 and 11, are about the Jews, whether or not they are still God's chosen, whether people need to stop being Jews or what point there was in being one at all? Paul is addressing a certain issue here; maybe answering a question he had been asked.

But yet you explain it away simply because it’s incomprehensible to you.

Sounds like another judgment - some Christians don't understand a certain Scripture so they "explain it away".
I gave you many Scriptures about the nature and character of God, and you simply ignored them - or is that somehow ok?

And because you find this unjust and unfair you bring God down to your level by elevating your will above Gods will

Another judgement.
You seem utterly convinced that your own interpretation of Scripture - or at least, one chapter of one book - is correct, and are condemning those who disagree with you as elevating themselves above God.
Make sure you're not doing the same.
 
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Strong in Him

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He does choose his "elect" or predispose the 144,000 to be saved,

The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation refers to the Jews - 12,00 from each tribe, Revelation 4:4-8.
It then says that John saw a vast crowd, too many to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language.

I don't believe that God chooses only some to be saved; that he says "you, whom I created, I have chosen to go to hell."
Jesus died for all. Not all will come to him and recognise that he can save them; they will either decide that God won't send anyone to hell or that they don't need salvation because they have lived good lives. Some will try to save themselves, others will mock, still others will decide they are not interested.
 
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Strong in Him

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Did God love Essau?

Yes.
God didn't CHOOSE Esau, he chose Jacob. And to Jews, at that time anyway, if God didn't choose someone, it was because he hated them; chosen = loved, not chosen = hated.
It's the same for some people today - "God doesn't love me, he didn't let me ......"; "God doesn't love me, I can't do .....".
 
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zoidar

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Do you believe man is born in sin and already guilty before God from conception?

Maybe we should have a new thread to discuss that? What I believe is that the sinful nature is there in every man allready when being woven together in the womb.
 
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zoidar

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Did God love Essau?

YES, certainly yes! He loves all men in the world. It doesn't mean that He loves what people do or approve to people's choices. Still he loves man, that is why He sent Jesus to save mankind.

It's true what Strong in Him writes, that love, hate is of the meaning chose and did not choose. Jesus uses the same language in Luk 14:26, you have to "choose" Jesus first, put him first in your life.

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

God is just... but HE is also LOVE! (1 Joh 4:8)

"There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. " /Rom 2:9-11
 
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John tower

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Which people are you referring to (Q)

How can it be an attack on the Word of God and the sovereignty of God to uphold the ABSOLUTE RIGHTEOUSNESS of God (Q)
You haven't been given ears to hear these simple truths : Wish I could help you but I can't : only God can give the increase : How us it MDC understands these things easily !
 
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John tower

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YES, certainly yes! He loves all men in the world. It doesn't mean that He loves what people do or approve to people's choices. Still he loves man, that is why He sent Jesus to save mankind.

It's true what Strong in Him writes, that love, hate is of the meaning chose and did not choose. Jesus uses the same language in Luk 14:26, you have to "choose" Jesus first, put him first in your life.

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

God is just... but HE is also LOVE! (1 Joh 4:8)

"There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. " /Rom 2:9-11
Why does the bible say in Heb 12(6): for WHOM the lord loves !
 
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BobRyan

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I really don't understand the mindset of those who continually fight for their own Free Will ! Is there something wrong with God being in absolute control of all things

If we lived in a perfect sinless, painless world and everyone having immortal eternal life - no lake of fire in the future, no war, no crime, no crimes against humanity, etc - then we could all say "hey maybe this is not us choosing anything at all - maybe God merely programmed us all to obey - and so we do - and so nothing ever goes amiss".

But in a world where "the many burn in the lake of fire" as Matthew 7 points out - the "few" go to heaven and where horrific mind-blowing crimes are committed by the trainload every day around the world -- well in that horrific scenario - blame is due, crime is happening, wrongs need to be "righted" etc.

There is simply no escaping it.

And if in that mix we add "you were born in this sinful world - no choice of your own ... and you have a sinful nature - no choice of your own" - then by "design" we would be "contributing" to the carnage and what is more - merely fuel for the fires of hell.

In that case your "and no choice of your own - that is all God's doing" -- we would not even need a devil to get things messed up - because in the 'God makes it all happen wrong' model - we already have the worst possible scenario.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Not seeing mans complete and total depravity in sin. And why he rejected original sin and believed there is something good in man
That’s your expression that there is not “something good in man” and you try to build a straw man fallacy and tear it down when I never said man is good outside of Christ orcthat if himself he has good in him.

To say “there is none good” as Paul said in Romans we as believers agree. But to say there is nothing good in man is error.

God is good and He shines in the heart of every man by the true Light (John 1:9)

This is the excellency of the power from God to convict draw and save all men in the heart. This is the seed or word of God that is sown in the heart. If they receive the word through belief they are saved. Though some can receive the word for a while then fall away as we read in Luke.

So there is something good in man’s heart that shines and that is God through the true Light (John 1:9). The man in himself is fallen and sinful and the flesh is weak in the flesh dwelleth no good thing. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels That the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us.

God shines and bears witness that all men can feel after him and find him (Acts 17) and to those that receive him to them he gave the power (John 1) But those that did not receive a love of the truth that they might be saved are lost. If they choose the life that God offers they have life if they choose death they have no hope. Unless they repent and come back.
 
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John tower

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YES, certainly yes! He loves all men in the world. It doesn't mean that He loves what people do or approve to people's choices. Still he loves man, that is why He sent Jesus to save mankind.

It's true what Strong in Him writes, that love, hate is of the meaning chose and did not choose. Jesus uses the same language in Luk 14:26, you have to "choose" Jesus first, put him first in your life.

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

God is just... but HE is also LOVE! (1 Joh 4:8)

"There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. " /Rom 2:9-11
Hebrews 12(6): For WHOM the Lord loves ! If he loved everyone it wouldn't say whom !
 
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