Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

LoveofTruth said:

Judas was saved as the other 11 were also saved before the cross (yet not without it in time)

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It is your opinion that Judas was "saved". He certainly believe on Jesus as His Savopr and je wasn't sealed with the Holy Spirit. Define saved please.

LoveofTruth said:

Jesus died for the sins that are past of the Old Testament saints as well as the ones after the cross. The same salvation is for all.

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Of course.

LoveofTruth said:

We know they were saved because Jesus said none of them is lost in John 17 except Judas, who by transgression fell as Acts 1 says.

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We don't know that Judas was saved. He was lost just just as Jesus said and just as was Pontius Pilot and Caiaphas likely lost.

LoveofTruth said:

Jesus also said his sheep hear his voice and he KNOWS them and he gives unto them eternal life.

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Obviously Judas didn't hear Him very clear if at all. Obviously Judas didn't know God or Jesus in the way Jesus was talking about. Obviously also Judas did not have eternal life. So what's the point here?

You now break into a long dissertation about Biblical concepts in general and I don't know why.

They sure don't prove that Judas was born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit as true believers are.

But obviously you believe that born again believers can come into judgement after coming to the Lord and passing from death to life. I (and Jesus) just happen to disagree.

Marvin Knox said:

It is your opinion that Judas was "saved". He certainly believe on Jesus as His Savopr and je wasn't sealed with the Holy Spirit. Define saved please.

Of course.

We don't know that Judas was saved. He was lost just just as Jesus said and just as was Pontius Pilot and Caiaphas likely lost.

Obviously Judas didn't hear Him very clear if at all. Obviously Judas didn't know God or Jesus in the way Jesus was talking about. Obviously also Judas did not have eternal life. So what's the point here?

You now break into a long dissertation about Biblical concepts in general and I don't know why.

They sure don't prove that Judas was born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit as true believers are.

But obviously you believe that born again believers can come into judgement after coming to the Lord and passing from death to life. I (and Jesus) just happen to disagree.

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Obed, U.S. Defence Secretary and the Israeli Government's Special Envoy has refuted any suggestion that "America is indeed Babylon, which is destined to be destroyed by the Great Tribulation" - In accordance with the prophesied "Fall of Babylon the Great" in Revelation 18.

Clearly, both the Israeli Government and Jews in America have a great deal of leverage in the process of U.S. Government, but it doesn't make them "correct" to challenge God's authority on this point - In such a misguided attempt to defend U.S. interests and the long term survival of the U.S. as a nation state.

As on the contrary, the Fall of America-Babylon is long since foretold in Revelation 18 - Which is prophecy by God's foreknowledge of the future - and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Ultimately, the long term destruction of America is forgone and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Effectively, the Future is set in stone, and God knows every detail of the future; and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

PS. Since 1945, the Jews have prospered more than ever before under the new world order of Pax Americana, but who is to say that such a prosperity (and security) would be jeopardised suddenly by the demise of America as a nation state - Since the Fall of Babylon the Great was never concomitant with the demise of other Zionist Christian nations in the Western hemisphere?

And who is to say that Israel's neighbours would continue to threaten its long term security - As in all likelihood, there would be far fewer Muslims than Jews and Christians amidst the "few" survivors who survive the Great Tribulation (Isaiah 24:6)?

Since the Muslim world are more likely to "Break the Covenant of Christ" than the Jews and Christians. Isaiah 24:5-6

For lack of numbers, how could the Remnants of Islam ever be a "threat" to anyone?

Stonehaven said:

Obed, U.S. Defence Secretary and the Israeli Government's Special Envoy has refuted any suggestion that "America is indeed Babylon, which is destined to be destroyed by the Great Tribulation" - In accordance with the prophesied "Fall of Babylon the Great" in Revelation 18.

Clearly, both the Israeli Government and Jews in America have a great deal of leverage in the process of U.S. Government, but it doesn't make them "correct" to challenge God's authority on this point - In such a misguided attempt to defend U.S. interests and the long term survival of the U.S. as a nation state.

As on the contrary, the Fall of America-Babylon is long since foretold in Revelation 18 - Which is prophecy by God's foreknowledge of the future - and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Ultimately, the long term destruction of America is forgone and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Effectively, the Future is set in stone, and God knows every detail of the future; and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

PS. Since 1945, the Jews have prospered more than ever before under the new world order of Pax Americana, but who is to say that such a prosperity (and security) would be jeopardised suddenly by the demise of America as a nation state - Since the Fall of Babylon the Great was never concomitant with the demise of other Zionist Christian nations in the Western hemisphere?

And who is to say that Israel's neighbours would continue to threaten its long term security - As in all likelihood, there would be far fewer Muslims than Jews and Christians amidst the "few" survivors who survive the Great Tribulation (Isaiah 24:6)?

Since the Muslim world are more likely to "Break the Covenant of Christ" than the Jews and Christians. Isaiah 24:5-6

For lack of numbers, how could the Remnants of Islam be a "threat" to any country?

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Wrong thread?

Marvin Knox said:

Wrong thread?

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Wrong thread, yes.

Wrong answer, no.

LoveofTruth said:

Also Jesus called unto him “HIS” twelve disciples (apostles) and he referred to these 12 as his sheep sent to the lost sheep

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This is really what Jesus said about the 12:
John 6:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

This was way before the Last Supper when Satan actually entered him. How could he be saved?

Further, and before 6:70, Jesus noted the fact that those who believe have (possess) eternal life (Jn 3:16, 5:24, 6:47). Then, still way before the Last Supper, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in 10:28.

So, how can anyone lose salvation after Jesus said THAT?

Please explain how Jesus' statement in 10:28 isn't always true.

Marvin Knox said:

If he had stuck with it he would have eventually understood Christ's sacrifice and hopefully been saved.

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This applies to everyone who is called to faith.

Jesus said be faithful even onto death and I will give you a crown of life.

Salvation is not ratified, until the Witness/Testator finishes their race, whilst keeping the faith (2 Timothy 4:6-8). This biological life is the start to the finishing (biological death) of the race, only to be rewarded at the end for the works of faith done in the earthly body.

One cannot attain eternal salvation, which points to their eternal inheritance, until the Testator biological dies. So it must follow, biological death, then judgement of the works of faith. The result is given on that day (Day of Judgement), by the righteous judge, only after the race is complete and not before.

Marvin Knox said:

I have been talked about "having been" saved and then losing that salvation - not being "potentially" saved and falling out of the position which would have hopefully lead to salvation.

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You can't definitively claim in this life of being saved, because your race of faith is not yet finished, that is in your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. (Hebrews 12:4)

You have not biologically died, in order to be judged by the righteous judge, after all the righteous judge is the one that deems you saved on that day (day of judgement).

my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day (2 Timothy 4:6-8)

be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. (Revelation 2:10)

Marvin Knox said:

As an Orthodox subscriber you believe that we are heading toward salvation by "cooperating with God", "becoming deity" and a number of other concepts foreign to Protestant theologians.

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You are mistaken friend.
Orthodox never teaches about being deity.
Orthodox teaches about being Holy like your Lord is Holy, according to his eight beautitudes. (1 Peter 1:16)

The term Holy, means "to be completed" in the ways of the Lord and in the Lord. It is when a justified in Christ believer, through their walk with God, is being made Holy, meaning coming to completion in the Lord.

The fauthful is progressively in their walk with God coming in the "fullness" of the Lord, for this is the life long Sanctification process until biological death, hence coming to the end of the faithful's race of faith, before they are judged and deemed as saved by the righteous judge.

Orthodoxy believes that salvation is never a one off done deal, it remains a work in progress, until the individual's race of faith is completed, after they biologically die and then are ready to be judged by the righteous Judge.

Apostle Paul and the Hebrews writer certainly believed so.

8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:6-8)

Orthodoxy is very much devouted to the writings of Apostle Paul and therefore rejects any salvation doctrine that removes the progressive life long obligation to the Holy Spirit who sanctifies. Orthodoxy also rejects a salvation doctrine that removes the righteous judge from the Day of Judgement.

Salvation is not a one off meal ticket transaction, which to Orthodoxy is very offensive, as it removes the Lord from his Judgement seat and obligates him to accept everyone who he may not like or want or deem suitable for his Heavenly Kingdom.

Removing the righteous judge Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit who sanctifies as the seal of guareentee onto redemption, from the salvation outcome is a false doctrine that Orthodoxy has rejected for 2000 years and counting.

Marvin Knox said:

We believe a person is saved by truly believing on and confessing Jesus as Lord and availing ourselves of the salvation (justification) which immediately results from those actions. (Assuming of course that the repentance involved and the trust involved are real on the part of the person.)

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Justification is when we sincerely believe, but Santification is life long and onto death.

You can't assume to finish the marathon race, by merely being on the starting lineup. Many drop of and NOT finish their race. The parable of the seeds that did NOT find fertile ground is an excellent reminder that the many starters are not going to be finishers of the race.

Many people in a marathon sidetrack to a pub around the corner and drop of like flies and forget that they were in a race to begin with, as they sucuumb to their drunkenness.

Repentence is not a ONE off deal, that is I repent and that is it. Repentence is a life long progressive workings of God within an individual, who through their Santification, which really is rehabilitation, is being brought bit by bit to repentence, as the self is being smashed and broken bit by bit, until the carnal mind governed by flesh is progressively being transformed to a mind governed by the Spirit, owing to a broken and contrite heart, coming into the completion (Holiness), that is fullness of Christ Jesus. (Read Romans 8 entirely).

Your definition of salvation is very marginal and completely ignores the workings of God within an individual from justification, through sanctification, to the sealing of an individual onto redemption, to be judged after biological death by the righteous judge, to be deemed saved on the Day of Judgement.

Marvin Knox said:

Works will follow as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling (sanctification).

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This sounds like a wing it yourself salvation, in the absense of the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies throughout an individual's life and in the absence of the Righteous Judge, who has the final say.

Marvin Knox said:

Such a one is translated out of the Kingdom of this world and into the Kingdom of God where we rule with Him in the Heavenlies as much as our faith allows

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We don't rule with him in the heavenlies at present, whilst we are in a decaying body of sin, when we have not finished our race of faith onto biological death and have NOT been judged and awarded our crown of eternal life (eternal inheritance).

We are not translated anywhere, we remain in this body of sin, awaiting our redemption onto eternal life in our new heavenly bodies, to be forever consciously present with the Lord. I discern your rhetoric is sounding like Full Preterism.

Marvin Knox said:

NOW" I am a child of God and, although it doesn't yet appear what I will eventually be, I know that someday I will be like Him for I will see Him as He actually is.

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That someday is not before you finish your race of faith, after you biologically die and then are judged by the righteous Judge and deemed suitable for His Heavenly Kingdom on the Day of Judgement, when all of humanity would have passed on from this temporal life.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

John plainly says, it has NOT been revealed what we will be. Noting, that John is a born again sanctified by the Spirit Apostle, who emphasizes that when Jesus Christ appears, they will be like him, within their resurrection bodies, after their earthly bodies biologically dies (dissolve) and will be able to then see the risen Lord as he is in His Glorified resurrection body, because they too would have put on their resurrection bodies on that day, that is the Day of Judgment.

Marvin Knox said:

As an Orthodox subscriber and an evangelical Protestant subscriber - I doubt that we can have any meaningful discussion concerning the idea of possibly losing salvation vs. being eternally secure until those differences are ironed out.

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There is no such claim of being eternally secure within this temporal life, unless your version of salvation is influenced by Full Preterism.

Full Preterists do not believe they can loose salvation, because they are already ruling with Jesus in the heavenlies and are in possession of their eternal inheritance within this temporal life. Much like the Sadducees they don't believe in an afterlife resurrection and pretend in their minds that this temporal lifetime is heaven.

Marvin Knox said:

Marvin Knox said: ↑

I've been very clear about what I am saying. That's why I began my critique by asking a question through the statement - define "saved"

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Saved isn't an outcome attained in this temporal lifetime. Full Preterist version of saved means an individual is already in possession of their eternal inheritance (Crown of Life) and they already ruling with Jesus in his presence, in the heavenlies, in their incorruptible resurrection bodies.

Marvin Knox said:

Do you see now why I asked the question?

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Absolutely!

Are you a Preterist?

Marvin Knox said:

Any meaningful discussion about the concept of once saved always saved requires that we agree on what it means to be "saved".

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I cannot agree with what seems to be a Full Preterist version of "saved", because I find it untenable as a definition, because it flies in the face of what Jesus and the Apostles said throughout scripture.

I don't believe your definition is a protestant definition. It is more a Full Preterist definition that is at odds with the majority of the Christian world.

Orthodoxy is much more than the rhetoric of men, it is rich in Christ Jesus and has 2000 years anointing, which cannot be said for Full Preterism.

FreeGrace2 said:

The following verses refute EmSw and condemn his theology.

The Blood of Christ

Matt 26:28 - This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24 - “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.

Luke 22:20 - In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Luke 22:19 - And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” {a reference to His death on the cross}

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These verses are not referring to His physical blood. Only a earthly-minded person would think that. This blood was in the cup and surely you aren't that immature to think this was His physical blood. But then again, you probably do.

FreeGrace2 said:

John 6
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Acts 5:28 - “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”

Evidence that references to the blood of Christ refers to His crucifixion.

Acts 20:28 - Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Rom 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

1 Cor 10:16 - Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

{this is in reference to Communion}

1 Cor 11:27 - So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. EmSw is guilty of this.

Eph 1:7 - In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

Eph 2:13 - But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Col 1:20 - and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Heb 9:22 - In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Combined with Heb 10:4 - It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

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Here again, you, nor anyone else has been cleansed by His physical blood. No one has drank His physical blood, nor eaten His physical. Since Jesus said to drink His blood, we absolutely know for sure He wasn't talking about any sacrifice. Surely you know what Leviticus 17:14 says.

for it is the life of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

Do you see that whoever eats the blood of a sacrifice will be cut off? Do you think Jesus knew this?

And what were OT priests to do with the sacrificial blood? Do you know FG2?

Deuteronomy 12:16
Only you shall not eat the blood; you shall pour it on the earth like water.

FreeGrace2 said:

Proving that the OT sacrifices did NOT pay for sins.

This directly refers to EmSw:

Heb 10:29 - How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Heb 12:24 - to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Heb 13:12 - And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Heb 13:20 - Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

1 Pet 1:2 - who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Rev 7:14 - I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 12:11 - They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

Rev 14:13 - He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

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Is this speaking of His physical blood? If so, have you washed your robes in His blood? Have you had His blood sprinkled on you? How does physical blood help anyone to triumph? You are so earthly-minded, and have no idea of Heavenly things.

FreeGrace2 said:

From previous posts, we know that EmSw has rejected the writings of Paul and the book of Hebrews. But from this list, he now has to reject the words of the apostles John and Peter as well.

Oh, yes, and the words of Jesus, who instituted Communion on the basis of His death on the cross.

So, even Communion is unnecessary according to his unbiblical theology.

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Once you learn what blood signifies, you will have an idea of what Jesus told us. Until then, you will only see His blood as an earthly entity.

Perhaps you may have read these passages -

John 5:24
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:68
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Do you not see that blood represents truth? Do you not see that it is the Spirit who gives life, that is, the Spirit of truth. Do you not see that Jesus is the truth and life?

How did those living during the time of Jesus have eternal life? There wasn't any physical blood shed, yet life was in the blood. How do you figure that? It's actually pretty easy to understand; Jesus was Life Itself, and He gave them the words of life.

It was the Living Jesus Who was life, and gave eternal life while living.

The Times said:

Salvation is not ratified, until the Witness/Testator finishes their race, whilst keeping the faith (2 Timothy 4:6-8). This biological life is the start to the finishing (biological death) of the race, only to be rewarded at the end for the works of faith done in the earthly body.

One cannot attain eternal salvation, which points to their eternal inheritance, until the Testator biological dies. So it must follow, biological death, then judgement of the works of faith. The result is given on that day (Day of Judgement), by the righteous judge, only after the race is complete and not before.

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I disagree.

Salvation in it's most basic sense is spoken of in the past tense (after having believed and been justified).

You hath He quickened; you are now the children of God; you are seated in Heaven with Him in glory; you have been translated etc.

The Times said:

One cannot attain eternal salvation, which points to their eternal inheritance, until the Testator biological dies.

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Exactly.

The fact that He has also been resurrected is beside the point.

The Times said:

You can't definitively claim in this life of being saved, because your race of faith is not yet finished, that is in your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. (Hebrews 12:4)

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Simply not true. "Now we are the children of God."

The Times said:

I cannot agree with what seems to be a Full Preterist version of "saved", because I find it untenable as a definition, because it flies in the face of what Jesus and the Apostles said throughout scripture. I don't believe your definition is a protestant definition. It is more a Full Preterist definition that is at odds with the majority of the Christian world. Orthodoxy is much more than the rhetoric of men, it is rich in Christ Jesus and has 2000 years anointing, which cannot be said for Full Preterism.

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Many will say to Him on that day "Lord, Lord"and He will declare to them that He never knew them.

I know you mean well - but you simply have not believed on the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as your only hope of salvation.

I simply don't have the time or the inclination to instruct you at length in this thread on the evangelical basics of salvation by grace through faith - much less a discussion of the Preterist view of end times prophecy.

I sincerely hope and pray that the net of salvation includes those who teach a salvation based on works following belief rather than a salvation based on grace through faith.

I hope to see you in the Kingdom of God on the other side of this life. May the grace of God include us all.

Marvin Knox said:

Salvation in it's most basic sense is spoken of in the past tense (after having believed and been justified)

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Believing according to the western cultural context is from earth to heaven apart, from the biblical cultural context.

The term "Belief" in Semitic culture is a life long devotion and not a mere thought.

Marvin Knox said:

Exactly.

The fact that He has also been resurrected is beside the point.

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Exactly what?
Jesus is raised and we too must biologically die and be raised in order to realise the outcome of whether we are saved.

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:28)

The Apostles who will see him the second time, after they biologically die, will be to redemption, that is the outcome of realising that they are saved 100%. Until then the game of Life continues until the witness dies.

Marvin Knox said:

Simply not true. "Now we are the children of God."

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Was Judas?
Come on!
Prove to me that Judas was not a child of God.

Marvin Knox said:

I know you mean well - but you simply have not believed on the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as your only hope of salvation.

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I do believe Jesus finished the works ofreconciliation. The Holy Spirit finishes the sealing onto redemption. You cannot have the finished works of Christ, without the completed works of the Spirit.

Marvin Knox said:

I sincerely hope and pray that the net of salvation includes those who teach a salvation based on works following belief rather than a salvation based on grace through faith.

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Again your western definition of "Belief" is not the Simetic definition. The implication is a life long devotion and not just a mere thought.

Marvin Knox said:

I hope to see you in the Kingdom of God on the other side of this life. May the grace of God include us all.

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The Righteous Judge will have the final say.

I said this:
"This is really what Jesus said about the 12:
John 6:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

This was way before the Last Supper when Satan actually entered him. How could he be saved?

Further, and before 6:70, Jesus noted the fact that those who believe have (possess) eternal life (Jn 3:16, 5:24, 6:47). Then, still way before the Last Supper, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in 10:28.

So, how can anyone lose salvation after Jesus said THAT?

Please explain how Jesus' statement in 10:28 isn't always true."

LoveofTruth said:

first lets quote the actual bible and see what it says in both sections

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As if I didn't "uote the actual Bible"??

"70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."(John 6:70,71 KJV)

this was spoken of Judas near the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning. Many years had passed.

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And what proof is offered in support of your opinion here? John's gospel was obviously linear. And John 6 is WAY BEFORE John 21.

Also notice the words

"for he it was that should betray him," this "should" part is prophetically speaking of a future event.

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No problem. Of course Jesus, as God Himself, who is Omniscient, would know everything that would happen.

Also to "betray" means to once have the trust of and go against that trust.

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Once again, what proof is offered in support of your opinion here?

It's just as possible that Judas from the beginning was just an opportunist. (he was a thief).

My familiar friend whom I once trusted has lifted up his heel against me. Referring to Judas.

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Eh, what verse is this?

We read in scripture

John 13:27
"And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly."

Even if we argue that Judas was a devil when Jesus spoke that This by no means says he was always one. Jesus called him a sheep at the BEGINNING of Judas's ministry. Many years can affect the way a person ens up.

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So far, you've proved nothing.

next verse

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."(John 10:28 KJV)

Judas was called a sheep by Jesus CLEARLY in the beginning Matthew 10 as I have shown clearly that was as long as he did abide in Christ But eternal life is Jesus Christ in believers as John says

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Please cite or quote the verse in Matt 10 where Jesus called Judas a sheep.

"...which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"(1 John 1:1,2 KJV)

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Where do you see John including Judas here? John wrote his epistles much later (86-95 AD). The opinion of the apostles in early Acts shows their opinion of him.

So eternal life is Jesus Christ in us. If a man abides not in Christ, and for example hates his brother then he no longer has Eternal life ( Jesus Christ( abiding in him.

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This statement shows a total lack of understanding of what is meant by "abiding". It refers to fellowship, not relationship. If it did, then we ourselves would be in charge of our relationship with Christ. Which is unbiblical. Eph 1:13 says "having believed", which is a past tense action, we ARE SEALED with the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus promised would be "with us forever". So your premise is flawed.

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."( 1 John 3:15 KJV)

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Did Jesus Christ die for the sin of murder, or not?

so no one can snatch any believer rom Jesus if they abide in him through faith and continue in the faith grounded and settled and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel.

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Just a "talking point". What verse actually says this? None.

But if they throufgh and evil heart of unbelief depart from the living God then they are lost.

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This indicates that your view is that the believer him/herself has the power to get rid of their salvation, that God wrought in them. Do you not realize just how silly that idea is?

And as God says

2 Chronicles 15:2
"And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

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Since the concept of "fellowship" seems foreign to you, I wouldn't expect you to understand this verse.

We also have verses in the OT where God tells people "I will never leave you or forsake you".

Deut 31:6 - Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.”

It takes a bit of discernment to understand verses. How do you handle 2 opposing verses? Just pick the one you favor and ignore the other?

Or properly understand both verses?

btw, I was hoping you'd answer my question, so if you just missed it I'll ask again,
"Please explain how Jesus' statement in 10:28 isn't always true."

EmSw said:

These verses are not referring to His physical blood. Only a earthly-minded person would think that.

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Why in the world would rational person think that I think the verses I provided in post #838 refer to Jesus' physical blood? Of course ALL of them refer to Jesus' spiritual death ON THE CROSS. Which was my point. You've discounted the cross, and mocked it.

Yet, the Bible is full of references to His spiritual death on the cross as the BASIS of His sacrifice on behalf of mankind.

This blood was in the cup and surely you aren't that immature to think this was His physical blood. But then again, you probably do.

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No, there was no cup, other than at the Last Supper, where Jesus instituted the Lord's Table, which was BASED on His spiritual death ON THE CROSS.

Once you learn what blood signifies, you will have an idea of what Jesus told us. Until then, you will only see His blood as an earthly entity.

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How about explaining to this thread what you think the "blood of Christ" is and what it signifies? At this point, I can't imagine.

Perhaps you may have read these passages -

John 5:24
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:68
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

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Every one of these verses refutes your Pharisee works based system of salvation.

Do you not see that blood represents truth? Do you not see that it is the Spirit who gives life, that is, the Spirit of truth. Do you not see that Jesus is the truth and life?

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Except the first sentence, every other one is true. The first sentence is not. The "blood of Christ" represents His spiritual death ON THE CROSS. You know, the cross you keep mocking. I proved it in post #838.

How did those living during the time of Jesus have eternal life?

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By believing that Jesus was their Savior.

There wasn't any physical blood shed, yet life was in the blood. How do you figure that?

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How ignorant! The Hebrew verse about "life being in the blood" refers to animal blood, not human blood.

The life of humans is in the soul. But you obviously didn't know that.

It was the Living Jesus Who was life, and gave eternal life while living.

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Post #838 simply and completely refutes your opinions.

btw, from that post, it should be obvious that EVERY WRITER of the NT speaks of the blood of Christ, which is a reference to His spiritual death ON THE CROSS.

Therefore, EVERY NT WRITER recognizes the significance of what the CROSS represents.

So, in addition to Paul and the book of Hebrews, you now have to reject EVERY WRITER of the NT in your rants again the CROSS. Way to go.

LoveofTruth said:

I have to step out for a bit i hope to get back and answer all your issues in a bit.

One glaring one I can answer now

I said

"But if they through and evil heart of unbelief depart from the living God then they are lost."( I corrected the spelling in through)

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What verse says this?

then you said,

"This indicates that your view is that the believer him/herself has the power to get rid of their salvation, that God wrought in them. Do you not realize just how silly that idea is?"

you use the word "has the power", I simply refer to scripture here.

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Please cite the reference.

Here is your correction to your words in this section ( which I was referring to and which you said was a "silly" idea)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

This is not a "silly" idea, this is truth. To depart from the living God means you no longer have God. We must continue until the end in Christ by faith.

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The phrase "depart the living God" is a reference to fellowship. Like walking away from someone.

The prodigal son is a great example. Though the son departed from his father, he REMAINED the father's son throughout the parable. That NEVER CHANGED.

What was lost was fellowship, not relationship. Once a son, always a son.

Can you change your birth parents? No. No different in the spiritual sense either.